One correct religion with the Truth (part 2)?

[tonyfish58]

The Christian will say the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is great. The Bahia has to say the gods of all religions are great. Zeus is great, Ba’al is great, Thor is great, Allah is great, Yahweh is great.

Dear IgnatianPhilo - Again you are imputing to Bahai’s what is not so.

We in no way impute to any soul that there is more than One God.

Dear Friend it is you that keeps multiplying God in your rebuttals and make of the One True God many.

We would give this analogy;

There is One Sun that gives Life to this Earth. Because of the many Seasons the Path of this One and Only Sun passes through, man is in need of many names to call it by.

The seasons Start, the Seasons End and the One and only Sun has shone on them all.

Please consider this reply with deep meditation and thought.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[St_Francis]

Yes, indeed I do believe this dear friend. In fact, I’m willing to put my life on it.
When? 1844 (2300 years after the edict to rebuild Jerusalem)
Where? Starting in the quietness of Shiraz, like “a thief in the night” and establishing His glory upon God’s Holy mountain, Mount Carmel, and its adjacent Plains of Sharon

So why do you believe this of this man?

If we were bacteria on an elephant, those on the trunk would describe their sustainer as a long thick, tubular structure. Those on the tail would describe a long, THIN, tubular structure with a hairy end.

These statements contradict but are still descriptions of a “much greater whole”

And this is one of the wonderful things about Catholicism: when two pieces of evidence seem to contradict, the Church can make sense of it. If one bacteria says thin tubular structure, and the other says thick tubular structure, and the Church resolves the apparent contradiction.

Now, how would a large being, such as a human, communicate the truth to the bacteria?

But there are other differences between religions which are actual contradictions, which means that in order to find the actual truth, one must discern and discard those teachings which are false.

Yes, I acknowledge this dear friend, however, the Jews believe that their religion was similarly protected by s’michah from teaching error, so why are they denied the Truth by Christianity, namely that Jesus was not the Messiah?

I don’t know that the Jews do believe this: it seems the s’micha is closer to a degree rather than a supernatural protection. Rabbis in the time of Christ were just teachers–the Jews then still had priests.

Christ either was or was not the Messiah. There is no resolving that contradiction. No one is denying this truth to the Jews; they themselves reject it.

Jesus WAS the Messiah and He came and destroyed the validity of Jewish Teachers and their claim to Truth.

I don’t think they had this; maybe you have better information than I do and can point me to it.

If Jesus can do this with His appearance on earth, then why can’t Baha’u’llah? God and His Messengers always annul the teachings of the previous Messenger/Prophet, its clear in the Old Testament, and in the Letters of Paul.

Because Christ is God Himself. What need is there of further prophets once God Himself has come to us?

Of course my friend, so my question is why would the Catholic Church teach that Muslims worship the same God as the Muslims.

Moslems “profess” to worship the God of Abraham. We worship the God of Abraham. So, yes, the Moslems worship the same God we do.

It’s kind of like if I said, My doctor is Dr. X, he is very gentle and kind; he tells me about my knees in very simple language; and my med student friend said, my professor is Dr X and he is very strict and tells us about the human skeleton in very technical language. But each is still the same person.

The problem would come about if my friend saw Dr X clearly, but I were half-blind and had a completely different idea of what Dr X looked like. So if Dr X were kidnapped and the police were searching based on a description from me and the FBI based on a description from my friend, there would be contradictions, no? and the two descriptions would not match and one would be an error.

Isn’t that the key to your line of contradiction? Jesus is God, Jesus is not God.

Either Jesus is God or He is not. There is not resolution to that.

Doesn’t sound like the same God to me? Yet the Catholic Church proclaims clearly that it is the same God.

Yes, because the Moslems claim the God of Abraham. They worship the same *person, *God Whom we call the Father. The understanding of God in His entirety by the Moslems, however, is very incomplete, and in many places also in error. They believe things about the same God which are wrong.

Yes, the command and authority to teach, but the infallibility of knowledge for the eternal religious future of mankind, I have my doubts. Why would God provide the guidance for mankind from age to age through the OT Prophets, and Moses and Jesus and then stop guiding mankind through these world-transforming Souls for eternity, and just rely on fallen human beings to teach mankind from here on in?

Because He’s not relying on fallen human beings; He’s relying on the Holy Spirit.

And why would you think a fallen human being like you or I would have a better idea of handling humanity than God would?

Defies logic and defies the way God worked in the past (before Jesus)

I do not see how this defies logic. As to how God handled things in the past, He handled Adam and Eve one way; He handled himanity at the time of Noah another way. He handled His Chosen People in still another way.

Finally, He sent The Son to us, to teach us, and the Holy Spirit, to protect us. What need have we of prophets when God Himself has deigned to appear among us?

Dear friend, the Word made flesh is sinless. I don’t think many on earth would call the Church as being sinless. But I’m not here to criticise the Church. (in fact there is so much I love about the Catholic Church). This is just an emphasis that a demarcation exists between Jesus’ Revelation 2000 years ago and the Church of today.

It is true that some members of the Church are fallen quite far, bit what of it? Christ did not say He would overrule the free will of anyone in the Church; He promised to protect only the teachings of the Church in the relevant areas (faith and morals). We live in the world of time, where things change; of course things look different than they used to, but certain things always remain the same.

 

[St_Francis]

Continued from above

Which is exactly why I believe that God has spoken again. Removed the man-made contradictions between religions and refocussed our attentions on the Sun of Truth shining resplendently upon all mankind, without prejudice.

Contradictions cannot be “removed.” Either one has hold of truth or one doesn’t. Non-Christians deny the divinity of Christ; if He is truly divine, is that not a contradiction? Is the denial not an insult to God? If Christ is not God, then is the assertion not an insult to God?

You can’t simply make a false analogy and wipe out the idea of contradiction. The bottom line is that either Christ is or is not God. This must be determined, not whisked away.

All we need to do is turn our faces towards the Light as opposed to the attractive lure of man-made idle fancy and vain imaginations, of which there are as many as there are people on earth, hence the denominations.

Christ said, I am the Light…," and advocated that we turn away from falsities, incomplete truth, and man-made fancy. He is the Light toward which we should turn.

Yes, of course, agreed dear friend. But even the appointment of WHO is the authoritative interpreter requires an “interpreter”. Was Peter the authorised successor of Jesus? Many believe so, but many, many do not. The point is that it was not EXPLICIT.

Of course it was sufficiently explicit. It just wasn’t sufficient for those who did not want to believe.

If it was explicit then we would have unity today. But reality shows us that we do not have unity today.

We would have unity today if people placed the truth above other considerations.

For example, Bishop Fulton Sheen was once approached by a young man who told the bishop he was leaving the Church, and all the theological reasons for his decision. Bishop Sheen listened to all this, and in the end asked simply, “Who’s the girl?”

When people of good will hear the Church, they come to believe, some more quickly than others. But there are those who *will *not believe, because… of a girl (or boy), because they do not want to submit, because they do not want to change… but the underlying reason is that they hold something else higher than the truth.

God will therefore speak again, with authority and majesty and align us again to His Will. This time “this is the Day that shall not be followed by night”…

I agree, so there is a difference between the Revelation of Jesus and the teachings of the Pope. One is unlimited, the other is limited. The limitations of papal infallibility have unfortunately been unable to unify the world.

No, Revelation is limited. How could God teach us all that He knows? Consider those bacteria on the elephant. Suppose I wanted to communicate the truth which I know about the elephant–would I not need to become small, as they are small? And would I not have to prove to them that I am sufficiently different from them that they should hear me? And would I be able to communicate to them *all *that I know? No, because they have a more limited understanding than I do.

In the same way, God wished to communicate things to us, so one of the Three in One became man, small, like us. But He could not tell us everything He knows…

God has spoken again dear friend,

What evidence is there that this is from God?

and this time there are no contradictions between all the religions, it all makes sense

No, this cannot be true except by semantical legerdemain.

Thankyou so much dear friend. I would be keen to hear your thoughts. I hope and pray that nothing I write offends in any way, it is not my intention.

Warmest prayers to you

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I too mean no offense Prayers for you too.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Dear IgnatianPhilo - Again you are imputing to Bahai’s what is not so.

We in no way impute to any soul that there is more than One God.

Dear Friend it is you that keeps multiplying God in your rebuttals and make of the One True God many.

We would give this analogy;

There is One Sun that gives Life to this Earth. Because of the many Seasons the Path of this One and Only Sun passes through, man is in need of many names to call it by.

The seasons Start, the Seasons End and the One and only Sun has shone on them all.

Please consider this reply with deep meditation and thought.

God Bless and Regards Tony

I have not multiplied God at all, because I know the God I believe in, who is one in essence who is only father son and holy spirit. Now if you do not worship all the gods, all the powers of the world then simply state that Elisha was right to mock Ba’al and his prophets. That Abraham was right to turn away from his own people and follow the true God instead of idols. That Moses was right to confront Pharoah.

But you can’t do this. You don’t believe any of the stories associated with these prophets. Which makes me wonder why you even bother venerating them. So I have considered your reply and I am convinced that you have the appearance of universalism, a universalism you do not actually believe. If I ask the same question long enough of you bahai that much is clear and you are forced to admit which you try to hide. That you have profound disagreements with all religions, that you obviously think the bahai religion is the best and greatest fulfillment of all religion.

So do you think you can give a clear answer? That you will not hide your intentions with flowery words? Whose altar do you stand at? The Altar of Ba;al or the altar of the True God or both?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Can you please define “corruption” and show in which post the Baha’is have used this word?

Thankyou.

The Baha’is say that there is one God. You can call Him whatever you like, as long as it is the viewed as the Ultimate Reality…

So there is something wrong with Allah? Something wrong with Yahweh? You see them as different gods? The Catholic Church disagrees and I’m siding with them because Baha’is acknowledge the Truth wherever it may express itself.

I would add therefore that the God of IgnatianPhilo is not the God of Catholicism…



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Can you say the church has maintained its theology without corruption? Answer that question. The Catholic church is however wrong and has fooled itself. You will be hard pressed to find a Catholic who says with the Muslim that Jesus is not God.

 

[tonyfish58]

Whose altar do you stand at?

The Alter of God doeth as He Willeth dear Friend in God.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

The Alter of God doeth as He Willeth dear Friend in God.

God Bless and Regards Tony

Let me ask you directly, would you worship at the altar of Ba’al? I just love how you are refusing to answer the question directly. You would stand with the priests of Ba’al against Elijah if you could. You would also tell Saint Paul that he was wrong when he said not to eat at the altar of false gods.

Will you deny that? No you won’t.

 

[tonyfish58]

Let me ask you directly, would you worship at the altar of Ba’al? I just love how you are refusing to answer the question directly. You would stand with the priests of Ba’al against Elijah if you could. You would also tell Saint Paul that he was wrong when he said not to eat at the altar of false gods.

Will you deny that? No you won’t.

Dear Friend - The question has been answered many times, In many threads, no need to repeat the answer.

Do you think accusations are actually questions

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

So why do you believe this of this man?

Dear Francis, I believe the Bab and Baha’u’llah because of the lives they lead, the transformations of souls they induced, the teachings they revealed, the place they found themselves in the context of Abrahamic religious history, the prophecies they fulfilled and the monumetal showerings of grace they have gushed upon the souls of mankind.

The prayers that they revealed, the impact their teachings have (empirically evidenced) on the three protagonists of the world (the individual, the community and the institutions) and the absolute unity found within the religion they heralded. These are but a few reasons dear friend

And this is one of the wonderful things about Catholicism: when two pieces of evidence seem to contradict, the Church can make sense of it. If one bacteria says thin tubular structure, and the other says thick tubular structure, and the Church resolves the apparent contradiction.

Dear friend, the Church has not resolved the apparent contradictions between Islam and Christianity for example. It is only when God Himself speaks (through Baha’u’llah) that the contradictions between Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Zoroastrianism have ALL been resolved.

The Church has been unable to do this, only Baha’u’llah has, to the satisfaction of millions of well educated and reasonable people, including Christian, Jewish and Islamic clergymen.

Now, how would a large being, such as a human, communicate the truth to the bacteria?

He would firstly ensure that the bacteria are aware of their reality, that is they are humble, limited beings who can only know so much. That is what we are dear friend.

It is only when we Christian bacteria recognize that the Islamic bacteria, ad the Hindu bacteria, ALL Have a role to play in Truth will we realize that we are looking “holistically” at the picture God is presenting to us.

Those who do this are called Baha’i bacteria, but even Baha’i bacteria, although acknowledging the truth of the tail, and the trunk and the front legs and the hind legs, still are humble enough to say “there is still so much we do not know”!

We would never say things such as “the fullness of Truth is found with us” (a common thing I hear in Catholicism)

But there are other differences between religions which are actual contradictions, which means that in order to find the actual truth, one must discern and discard those teachings which are false.

This seems to contradict your statement above and laughs in the face of the elephant example. Would you mind sharing what these things are please?

I don’t know that the Jews do believe this: it seems the s’micha is closer to a degree rather than a supernatural protection. Rabbis in the time of Christ were just teachers–the Jews then still had priests.

Christ either was or was not the Messiah. There is no resolving that contradiction. No one is denying this truth to the Jews; they themselves reject it.

Yes dear friend, and no one is denying this truth to you. You yourself choose to reject the validity of all other religions outside of Christianity. You choose to discount the possibility that they are looking at the elephant’s tail and you are looking at the elephants trunk.

I don’t think they had this; maybe you have better information than I do and can point me to it.

“Your righteousness is a righteousness forever and your torah is truth.” (Psalm 119:142)

The Torah is the Truth. Jesus removed this from them and even, as Paul attested, called the Law of the Torah “death”

Because Christ is God Himself. What need is there of further prophets once God Himself has come to us?

Because God is the All-Wise and the All-Just. He would never burden the souls of men with more than what they can understand. Religious Truths have, and always will be revealed PROGRESSIVELY to humanity as the consciousness, intellect and spiritual maturity of humanity EVOLVES.

It is also the reason why the sun GRADUALLY rises in the day, and why the baby GRADUALLY develops in the womb of the mother.

Everything in reality is gradually unfolded…God clearly is process-driven in all things. Yes, one can break down these things into a series of events, but in the grand scheme of things, from the perspective of the grander wisdom behind everything, it’s the process and gradual unfoldment which is critical. We can look at the “moment” of conception, or the moment of eye development or the moment of limb development and say “Yes! That’s the MOMENT!” …but the reality lies in the process and gradual unfoldment of the “human being”…that’s the fruit.

And so I ask you dear friend, what is the need of ANY of the Old Testament Prophets?
Why would the Word not become flesh a few days later from the incident in Eden and save all of humanity from the start?

So what is the need for all those Prophets until Jesus came? The answer to this question will resolve your dilemma as to why Baha’u’llah came to earth

cont below…

 

[Servant19]

Moslems “profess” to worship the God of Abraham. We worship the God of Abraham. So, yes, the Moslems worship the same God we do.

It’s kind of like if I said, My doctor is Dr. X, he is very gentle and kind; he tells me about my knees in very simple language; and my med student friend said, my professor is Dr X and he is very strict and tells us about the human skeleton in very technical language. But each is still the same person.

The problem would come about if my friend saw Dr X clearly, but I were half-blind and had a completely different idea of what Dr X looked like. So if Dr X were kidnapped and the police were searching based on a description from me and the FBI based on a description from my friend, there would be contradictions, no? and the two descriptions would not match and one would be an error.

Why can’t Dr.X in his wisdom, adapt his knowledge and style to the capacity of his audience to understand??
People do this every day. The way you talk to a baby might be described as “wishywashy, high pitched, and using random words lacking clarity”.
The way you talk to a university professor might be described as “precise, lower pitched tone, very clear and using complex language”. They are both examples of you using your wisdom and sense of justice to communicate to different people.
Why would God not do this too??
So there are no contradictions dear friend. We are talking about an Infinite Being after all…

Either Jesus is God or He is not. There is not resolution to that.

How about both is true, as attested by Baha’u’llah and attested, believe it or not by St. Basil of Caesarea…

Please compare this text here:
reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-27.html

with the final paragraph of St. Basil’s teachings here:
newadvent.org/fathers/3202038.htm

Yes, because the Moslems claim the God of Abraham. They worship the same *person, *God Whom we call the Father. The understanding of God in His entirety by the Moslems, however, is very incomplete, and in many places also in error. They believe things about the same God which are wrong.

How can “any” human being be certain of this? Are we limited or are we the fountains of knowledge.

Can you please cite where in Church teaching it is specified that the Muslim concept of God is in error?

Because He’s not relying on fallen human beings; He’s relying on the Holy Spirit.

And why would you think a fallen human being like you or I would have a better idea of handling humanity than God would?

Does the Church have any reasons why God would not simply send the Holy Spirit to us all in the first place? It would make the world so much better from the very start, don’t you think? No need to affiliate oneself with any “Prophets” or “Incarnations”…just a Church from the very start and we all just listen to what the Church teaches.

Again, the past and the future does not match up according to your reasoning dear friend

I do not see how this defies logic. As to how God handled things in the past, He handled Adam and Eve one way; He handled himanity at the time of Noah another way. He handled His Chosen People in still another way.

Finally, He sent The Son to us, to teach us, and the Holy Spirit, to protect us. What need have we of prophets when God Himself has deigned to appear among us?

This makes God look silly. He sent the Prophets to humanity, and inspired them all with a public revelation. Why would all public revelation cease?

It is true that some members of the Church are fallen quite far, bit what of it? Christ did not say He would overrule the free will of anyone in the Church; He promised to protect only the teachings of the Church in the relevant areas (faith and morals). We live in the world of time, where things change; of course things look different than they used to, but certain things always remain the same.

I’m not saying we are all faultless dear friend. We have faults, but the chosen embodiments of the Holy Spirit would reflect the Holy Spirit and represent the Holy Spirit in their actions in the world.

Was it not Jesus who had the Holy Spirit descend upon Him? Christians pride themselves on the sinless nature of this Divine Being which resulted. His Word becomes Divine resultingly. Why would this standard not be upheld for anyone else who has the Holy Spirit descend upon them?



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[St_Francis]

Servant:

Was it not Jesus who had the Holy Spirit descend upon Him? Christians pride themselves on the sinless nature of this Divine Being which resulted. His Word becomes Divine resultingly. Why would this standard not be upheld for anyone else who has the Holy Spirit descend upon them?

The misunderstanding you evince here is that Christ’s divinity resulted from “the descent of teh Holy Spirit upon Him.” No, Christ did not need the Holy Spirit to descent on Him because both Christ and the Holy Spirit are Persons within the nature of God, along with God the Father. Christ is sinless because He is God, and God is the source of all goodness and therefore can do nothing wrong.

So you can see that from the Catholic point of view, the fact that the Holy Spirit descends on someone does not make that person equal to Christ.

---

Is your comment here the sort oft hing they teach you in Bahai about Catholic belief? I ask because I am astounded by the vast departure of what you wrote from what has been wrtten about what we believe about Christ in this very thread. I mean, I assumed you were actually reading what we wrote, but it seems that maybe you somehow missed the references to the fact that *Catholics believe that **Christ actually is God. ***

I am teuly finding it difficult to contemplate continuing this conversation because of this twisting of out beliefs. I join Ingatio Philo is asking you as well as Tony, directly:

Some have worshipped the demon Ba’al. Do you include this demon among those you pull into your all-inclusive theology, or do you see a difference between Ba’al and the God of Abraham?

 

[Servant19]

The misunderstanding you evince here is that Christ’s divinity resulted from “the descent of teh Holy Spirit upon Him.” No, Christ did not need the Holy Spirit to descent on Him because both Christ and the Holy Spirit are Persons within the nature of God, along with God the Father. Christ is sinless because He is God, and God is the source of all goodness and therefore can do nothing wrong.

So you can see that from the Catholic point of view, the fact that the Holy Spirit descends on someone does not make that person equal to Christ.

---

Is your comment here the sort oft hing they teach you in Bahai about Catholic belief? I ask because I am astounded by the vast departure of what you wrote from what has been wrtten about what we believe about Christ in this very thread. I mean, I assumed you were actually reading what we wrote, but it seems that maybe you somehow missed the references to the fact that *Catholics believe that **Christ actually is God. ***

I am teuly finding it difficult to contemplate continuing this conversation because of this twisting of out beliefs. I join Ingatio Philo is asking you as well as Tony, directly:

Some have worshipped the demon Ba’al. Do you include this demon among those you pull into your all-inclusive theology, or do you see a difference between Ba’al and the God of Abraham?

Thankyou again for your thoughts dear friend. Your post begs some questions to be asked:

1. What then was the purpose of the Holy Spirit descending upon Jesus?
2. I acknowledge that Catholicism believes that Jesus is God, but if God is the Ultimate Reality and there is nothing greater, then why would Christ say that the Father is greater than Himself?

Finally, the question about Ba’al really is a constant question that IgnatianPhilo repetitively asks the Baha’is on multiple threads. The answer has been given so many times.

Baha’is believe in the One God worshipped by the Abrahamic Faiths. There is no other God.

I hope that this is explicit enough to put that subject matter to rest.

Thankyou dear friend
I appreciate your consideration to my questions

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[tonyfish58]

I am truly finding it difficult to contemplate continuing this conversation because of this twisting of out beliefs. I join Ingatio Philo is asking you as well as Tony, directly:

Some have worshiped the demon Ba’al. Do you include this demon among those you pull into your all-inclusive theology, or do you see a difference between Ba’al and the God of Abraham?

Servant Has explained our response to this last question. I would like to add these thoughts from Baha’u’llah and ask you to consider the wisdom of the Words.

Baha’u’llah has explained the Twofold Station of A True Prophet and thus this is applicable to Jesus

"We have already in the foregoing pages assigned two stations unto each of the Luminaries arising from the Daysprings of eternal holiness. One of these stations, the station of essential unity, We have already explained. “No distinction do We make between any of them.” The other is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined Revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite Mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.” Page 176 - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-6.html#pg176

“…Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world…” Page 178

“…And were any of them to voice the utterance: “I am the Messenger of God,” He also speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth…” Page 179

“…For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the “Beginning” and the “End,” the “First” and the “Last,” the “Seen” and “Hidden”—all of which pertain to Him Who is the innermost Spirit of Spirits and eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say: “We are the servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain…” Page 179

This is another link to explain - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-6.html

This is a link to a discussion on Who are seen as prophets - bahai-library.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=170

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[St_Francis]

Thankyou again for your thoughts dear friend. Your post begs some questions to be asked:

1. What then was the purpose of the Holy Spirit descending upon Jesus?

Celebration? At the same time, The Father said, “This is My Son, in whom I am well-pleased.” This was obviously an event, one to which loved ones are likely to show up, no?

But the reality is that we can’t really know. What we do know is that because Christ is God, He didn’t “need” the Holy Spirit to descend on Him to be good–His goodness always existed, as did He.

1. I acknowledge that Catholicism believes that Jesus is God, but if God is the Ultimate Reality and there is nothing greater, then why would Christ say that the Father is greater than Himself?

From the Haydock commentary
Ver. 28. The Father is greater than I.[3] According to the common exposition, Christ here speaks of himself, as made man, which interpretation is drawn from the circumstances of the text, Christ being at that time, going to suffer, and die, and shortly after to rise again, and ascend into heaven, all which agree with him, as man, and according to his human nature. But the Arians can take no advantage from these words, (though with divers of the ancient Fathers, we should allow them to be spoken of Christ, as the Son of God the Father may be said in some manner to be greater than the Son, if we consider the order of the divine processions, that is, that the Father is the first person, and proceeds from no other; whereas the Son proceeds from the Father. If any one, says St. Chrysostom, will contend, that the Father is greater, inasmuch as he is the cause, from which the Son proceedeth, we will bear with him, and this way of speaking: provided he grant that the Son is not of a different substance, or nature. St. Athanasius allows the same, and takes notice, that though the Father is said to be greater, yet he is not said to be better, nor more excellent, than the Son; because they are one and the same in substance, nature, and other perfections. (Witham) — The enemies of the divinity of Christ here triumph, and think they have the confession of Christ himself, that he is less than the Father. But if they would distinguish the two natures of Christ, their arguments would all fall to the ground. Jesus Christ, as man, and a creature, is inferior to his Father, the Creator; but, as God, he is, in every respect, equal to him. (St. Basil, St. Augustine, &c.) — Others, likewise, answer it thus: Following the confused opinion of the world, and even of the apostles themselves, who as yet only considered Christ as a prophet, and as a man, eminent in virtue and sanctity, he was less than the Father. (St. Chrysostom; Leont.; Theophylactus; Euthymius) — And likewise the title of Father, (as we generally use the word) is greater, and much more honourable, than that of Son; and in this respect, Christ is inferior to his Father. (St. Athanasius; St. Hilary; St. Epiphanius; St. Gregory of Nazianzus; and St. Cyril) —But this appellation, though really true, does not destroy the equality of the persons, because Christ has declared, in numerous other places, that he is equal to the Father; that he is in the Father; and that he and the Father are one. The apostles ought to have rejoiced that Christ was going to the Father, who was superior to him, considering him in his human nature; because, then, would the Son shew forth his honour and glory to be equal to the Father’s, in heaven. This would have been a mark of a pure, solid, and disinterested love, which ought to have inspired the apostles, if they truly loved their divine Master. (Calmet)…

God the Father is in charge, holds the reins of authority. It is not His Person which is better than Christ but that His position is different.

Finally, the question about Ba’al really is a constant question that IgnatianPhilo repetitively asks the Baha’is on multiple threads. The answer has been given so many times.

Baha’is believe in the One God worshipped by the Abrahamic Faiths. There is no other God.

I hope that this is explicit enough to put that subject matter to rest.

Thankyou dear friend
I appreciate your consideration to my questions

.

I’m sorry I misunderstood and thought that your religion tried to include or resolve all religions, not just the Abrahamic ones.

 

[St_Francis]

Tony and Servant,
Is this what the Bahai believe?
The Baha’i Scriptures affirm that Jesus is one of a series of Manifestations of God that includes Moses, the Buddha, Muhammad — and, today, Baha’u’llah– through Whom, from age to age, God has progressively revealed His Will and Purpose for humanity. All the Manifestations of God are like perfect Mirrors for the Spirit of God to come into the world.

Then the contradiction is that we Catholics do not believe that Christ is merely a manifestation of God, nor do we believe that the others named are in any way equal in nature to Christ. The Bahai have not resolved the contradictions between the Faiths, merely warped the teachings to render some strange equivalence.

 

[Servant19]

Tony and Servant,
Is this what the Bahai believe?
The Baha’i Scriptures affirm that Jesus is one of a series of Manifestations of God that includes Moses, the Buddha, Muhammad — and, today, Baha’u’llah– through Whom, from age to age, God has progressively revealed His Will and Purpose for humanity. All the Manifestations of God are like perfect Mirrors for the Spirit of God to come into the world.

Then the contradiction is that we Catholics do not believe that Christ is merely a manifestation of God, nor do we believe that the others named are in any way equal in nature to Christ. The Bahai have not resolved the contradictions between the Faiths, merely warped the teachings to render some strange equivalence.

Hello again Francis, I will address your points raised further up in a little while, but for this post, I would ask you ponder on the quote Tony cited. Really reflect and meditate on this especially dear friend:

"The other is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined Revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite Mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.”

Let us know your thoughts AFTER your deep reflections
Try to remove yourself from Catholic thinking and take the passage as it is and ponder my friend

.

 

[Sy_Noe]

As much as I appreciate the exergasia , I do not follow your logic: the fact that a number of people end up where they did not intend/expect only demonstrates that a conclusion becomes clear to them, not that their conclusion is true (humans being capable of immense certainty in the midst of colossal error); further, since those unexpected destinations have included multiple faith positions, it does reinforce the fact that care and prayer do not bring everyone to the same place.

Something I’ve always had some trouble with are those faith traditions where humans express such immense certainty.

 

[St_Francis]

Hello again Francis, I will address your points raised further up in a little while, but for this post, I would ask you ponder on the quote Tony cited. Really reflect and meditate on this especially dear friend:

"The other is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined Revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite Mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.”

Let us know your thoughts AFTER your deep reflections
Try to remove yourself from Catholic thinking and take the passage as it is and ponder my friend

.

Would you agree to a similar request to remove yourself from your Bahai thinking to contemplate and ponder concepts which go against your faith?

 

[arthra]

I’ve been interested in the use of the word “manifest” found in the New Testament… You may be familiar with the following verse:

1Pe 1:20
He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake.

The Greek word is “phaneroo” and the meaninigs follow:

to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way

1. 
   *]make actual and visible, realised
   *]to make known by teaching
   *]to become manifest, be made known
   
   I think the above is very close to the Baha’i concept of what a Manifestation does…

 

[St_Francis]

Something I’ve always had some trouble with are those faith traditions where humans express such immense certainty.

And with a human-based tradition, one should feel this way. However, Catholics and the Church do not believe this because of *us, *but because of *Christ, *Who was made incarnate to save us.