One correct religion with the Truth (part 2)?

[Servant19]

Would you agree to a similar request to remove yourself from your Bahai thinking to contemplate and ponder concepts which go against your faith?

Of course dear friend, I will forgo all thinking to acknowledge a Truth. We have an inherent capability given to us by God which is the primary vehicle for discerning truth from false. That is the intellect, rationality and reason, capacities of the human mind we should use more.

There is a validity to the reasoning why I believe what Baha’u’llah stated in the quote offered above. The reasoning is that it does not deny the purity of the worship of the One God offered in ALL major global religions. For this reason, the Messengers and Prophets come from God, they are simply given different missions and are endowed with different gifts. EVERYTHING therefore that these Prophets state are from God and must be taken very seriously.

Did you have something in mind to address to me for which you wish me to forgo my Baha’i thinking?



p.s very interesting post also from arthra above, which is worthy of meditation, don’t you think?

.

 

[St_Francis]

I’ve been interested in the use of the word “manifest” found in the New Testament… You may be familiar with the following verse:

1Pe 1:20
He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake.

The Greek word is “phaneroo” and the meaninigs follow:

to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way

1. 
   *]make actual and visible, realised
   *]to make known by teaching
   *]to become manifest, be made known
   
   I think the above is very close to the Baha’i concept of what a Manifestation does…

1. 
   However, manifestation does not apply to Abraham, Mohammed, or anyone else, only to Christ. The Bahai “resolve” the differences by applying this manifestation idea to others, not to Christ alone.

 

[Sy_Noe]

And with a human-based tradition, one should feel this way. However, Catholics and the Church do not believe this because of *us, *but because of *Christ, *Who was made incarnate to save us.

I think you’ve made my point. It still takes some degree of believing, some degree of faith, even to believe one is immensely certain.

 

[tonyfish58]

And with a human-based tradition, one should feel this way. However, Catholics and the Church do not believe this because of *us, *but because of *Christ, *Who was made incarnate to save us.

Have you considered these Biblical Passages?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 - Context - The Return of the Lord

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.…

Does this not clearly mean that the Christian will not be the first to recognize the Return of Christ?

IMHO - Is it not saying those who are still alive in Christ, will not precede those who had forgotten their Lord. Could it be that those who had forgotten Christ may not have the Doctrines to hold them back from the New Word and will Glory in His Coming, then those that still believe in Christ will come to know their Lords Return

Could this be why your mind still asks these deep and perplexing questions?

Dear Friend, it is your Choice and I can tell you a Baha’i Loves Christ with all His Heart and All His Soul and would Offer His Life as would any person who is still alive in Christ!

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Dear Friend - The question has been answered many times, In many threads, no need to repeat the answer.

Do you think accusations are actually questions

God Bless and Regards Tony

No it has not, you have said it has been answered many times when you know it has not.

Why is it so hard to say “I would never pray at the Altar of Ba’al”

Saying that you would only pray at the altar of the true God is rather vague, it is in fact to me saying “I will pray anywhere because God is in all religions, even the religions God condemned and destroyed people over in the Old testament.”

You can prove me wrong, but since I have seen bahai admit that if they had the chance they would join the israelites who worshiped on the hills. That is not a good thing.

 

[St_Francis]

Of course dear friend, I will forgo all thinking to acknowledge a Truth. We have an inherent capability given to us by God which is the primary vehicle for discerning truth from false. That is the intellect, rationality and reason, capacities of the human mind we should use more.

My Catholic belief is founded on “intellect, rationality, and reason” and is therefore too intertwined with my thinking to “remove myself from my Catholic thinking.” I don’t engage in speculation about untrue situations: If money really did grow on trees…, that sort of thing. I was not Catholic for over half my life and I know that non-Catholic thinkng is hollow.

There is a validity to the reasoning why I believe what Baha’u’llah stated in the quote offered above. The reasoning is that it does not deny the purity of the worship of the One God offered in ALL major global religions. For this reason, the Messengers and Prophets come from God, they are simply given different missions and are endowed with different gifts. EVERYTHING therefore that these Prophets state are from God and must be taken very seriously.

If you had studied Judaism and Catholicism, you would see that one is indeed the fulfillment of the other–Judaism is thus contained in Catholicism.

Islam is a mess: it is contradictory and in places promotes evil, either directly or through the actions of its “founder” Mohammed.

Most religions do indeed teach some truths: natural law is after all something that man can understand through his own intellect, but wrt that which has been revealed by God, man cannot come to that knowledge without the help of God. Thus, where there is contradction in areas covered by God’s revelation to all humanity, the Catholic Church, since it is protected by God (not because of anything we humans do), is correct.

Did you have something in mind to address to me for which you wish me to forgo my Baha’i thinking?

I just cannot understand how someone could do that.

p.s very interesting post also from arthra above, which is worthy of meditation, don’t you think?

.

I replied to her post

 

[tonyfish58]

My Catholic belief is founded on “intellect, rationality, and reason” and is therefore too intertwined with my thinking to “remove myself from my Catholic thinking.” I don’t engage in speculation about untrue situations: If money really did grow on trees…, that sort of thing. I was not Catholic for over half my life and I know that non-Catholic thinkng is hollow.

The Baha’i Writings cover this topic many times and explains to us this is what holds people back from recognizing “The Return”. It may be that we need to rise above Hollow thoughts to see with new eyes and hear with new ears?

“The fact that we imagine ourselves to be right and everybody else wrong is the greatest of all obstacles in the path towards unity, and unity is necessary if we would reach truth, for truth is one.” — `Abdu’l-Bahá

This book will explain why you feel that way - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-1.html

Here is an extract proving why the Jews missed Christ

“…And this for no other reason except that Israel refused to apprehend the meaning of such words as have been revealed in the Bible concerning the signs of the coming Revelation. As she never grasped their true significance, and, to outward seeming, such events never came to pass, she, therefore, remained deprived of recognizing the beauty of Jesus and of beholding the face of God. And they still await His coming! From time immemorial even unto this day, all the kindreds and peoples of the earth have clung to such fanciful and unseemly thoughts, and thus have deprived themselves of the clear waters streaming from the springs of purity and holiness”.

If you had studied Judaism and Catholicism, you would see that one is indeed the fulfillment of the other–Judaism is thus contained in Catholicism.

It can be also said if one chooses to study the writings of Baha’u’llah and the Baha’i Faith you will see Judaism, Christianity, Muslim and the Words of all other True Religions contained within the Baha’i Faith.

Is it not then just our Frame of Reference?

Islam is a mess: it is contradictory and in places promotes evil, either directly or through the actions of its “founder” Mohammed.

You have to study Islam in context to the Age and to the Peoples it was revealed to.

At its Height the Muslim Faith was the Roll Model for the World, this being an Historical Fact.

If you are to judge the Religion by the Radical Followers that have removed themselves from the True Word of God, then can you not agree that even the Catholic Faith has a lot of skeletons in the closet!

If you study Muhummad with Justice you will see He lived the Life of His Word.

Most religions do indeed teach some truths: natural law is after all something that man can understand through his own intellect, but wrt that which has been revealed by God, man cannot come to that knowledge without the help of God. Thus, where there is contradction in areas covered by God’s revelation to all humanity, the Catholic Church, since it is protected by God (not because of anything we humans do), is correct.

All True Religion Teaches Truth, the older they become the more man has mad a mess of them. This is for each person to decide for themselves, God Bless your meditations upon this subject!

I replied to her post

His

Dear St Francis - I wish you well in life and Faith. May the wonderment of Gods Word permeate your Soul

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[jaismith08]

I agree. They can’t say that they have their true religion and others don’t have. Because you can’t be saved by religion alone. It’s always about how you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior. I love this bible verse: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me”.

 

[tonyfish58]

I agree. They can’t say that they have their true religion and others don’t have. Because you can’t be saved by religion alone. It’s always about how you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior. I love this bible verse: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me”.

Dear jaismith08, thank you for your thoughts and I agree 100% with this comment " It’s always about how you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior". First we must accept ‘Jesus’ and then ‘His Word’ and then ‘Deeds’ must be our adorning.

IMHO - The quote “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” may be limited when taken out of context with the remainder of the Biblical passages of John 14.

John 14 tells a Big Story to which that passage is just one part. If one changes ones Frame of Reference to what that one passage means, then a whole new story can be told



God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Dear jaismith08, thank you for your thoughts and I agree 100% with this comment " It’s always about how you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior". First we must accept ‘Jesus’ and then ‘His Word’ and then ‘Deeds’ must be our adorning.

IMHO - The quote “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” may be limited when taken out of context with the remainder of the Biblical passages of John 14.

John 14 tells a Big Story to which that passage is just one part. If one changes ones Frame of Reference to what that one passage means, then a whole new story can be told



God Bless and Regards Tony

So basically you want us to mangle the text to include Muhammad and your prophet when Muhammad and your prophet is never even considered? That is the sacrifice of Christ that makes atonement of sins, his Resurrection which we have hope in, that he is the High priest of the faithful, that all is accomplished through him?

Don’t say you agree with Christians %100 and then immediately go on to contradict yourself. There is one way in which you don’t agree with Christians and this is it. That you would have no problem going to stone henge with the Neo pagans and worshiping with them. You would feel exalted to worship their gods, deluding yourself that they are worshipping the true God.

This is why it is impossible to talk with universalists, they cannot admit contradictions unless you so define a position in order to make it impossible for them to affirm it. The Bahai interestingly have no problem calling out social evils, the things which they say change every generation of prophet but notice they never call out the deeper theological truths. Well they do call out the deeper theological truths but in such a manner so as to make you think they actually agree with you.

I notice you still haven’t denied you would not worship at the Altar of Baal if you had the chance. I notice you have not spoken out against a bahai saying he would worship with pagans on the hills if he had the chance and had lived in ancient Israel.

Until the bahai can admit we actually disagree and engage honestly, what point is there in discussing? Why don’t the bahai start by saying “Yes the trinity is a false doctrine.” DON’T redefine it, don’t use your meaning of the word, use the historical meaning of the word since the third century, use the CHRISTIAN meaning of that word, the actual meaning of that word. Can you do that? Can you have a conversation without forcing your opponent to clarify in five distinct ways what they mean? (I don’t think this is possible for bahai to have a genuine conversation)

 

[1enlighten1]

If God wanted us to have faith in multiple religions, then why did all Prophets that He sent abrogated the laws of their predecessors and announced to their adherents to accept the new revelations? I definitely believe there is only one true religion although this does not mean that anyone who claims some sort of divine connection is telling the truth.

 

[Servant19]

So basically you want us to mangle the text to include Muhammad and your prophet when Muhammad and your prophet is never even considered? That is the sacrifice of Christ that makes atonement of sins, his Resurrection which we have hope in, that he is the High priest of the faithful, that all is accomplished through him?

Don’t say you agree with Christians %100 and then immediately go on to contradict yourself. There is one way in which you don’t agree with Christians and this is it. That you would have no problem going to stone henge with the Neo pagans and worshiping with them. You would feel exalted to worship their gods, deluding yourself that they are worshipping the true God.

This is why it is impossible to talk with universalists, they cannot admit contradictions unless you so define a position in order to make it impossible for them to affirm it. The Bahai interestingly have no problem calling out social evils, the things which they say change every generation of prophet but notice they never call out the deeper theological truths. Well they do call out the deeper theological truths but in such a manner so as to make you think they actually agree with you.

I notice you still haven’t denied you would not worship at the Altar of Baal if you had the chance. I notice you have not spoken out against a bahai saying he would worship with pagans on the hills if he had the chance and had lived in ancient Israel.

Until the bahai can admit we actually disagree and engage honestly, what point is there in discussing? Why don’t the bahai start by saying “Yes the trinity is a false doctrine.” DON’T redefine it, don’t use your meaning of the word, use the historical meaning of the word since the third century, use the CHRISTIAN meaning of that word, the actual meaning of that word. Can you do that? Can you have a conversation without forcing your opponent to clarify in five distinct ways what they mean? (I don’t think this is possible for bahai to have a genuine conversation)

Here it is once and for all Ignatian!

BAHAIS WILL NOT WORSHIP AT THE ALTAR OF BA’AL

BAHAIS WILL NOT GO TO STONEHENGE AND OARTICIPATE IN SOME RITUALISTIC IDOL WORSHIP.

I hope and pray you will stop repeating these same questions over and over again.

I look forwarding to the next time you ask us this question again. Maybe capital letters will act as a reminder to how many times we have answered this question to you.

You are in my prayers

.

 

[1enlighten1]

Here it is once and for all Ignatian!

BAHAIS WILL NOT WORSHIP AT THE ALTAR OF BA’AL

BAHAIS WILL NOT GO TO STONEHENGE AND OARTICIPATE IN SOME RITUALISTIC IDOL WORSHIP.

I hope and pray you will stop repeating these same questions over and over again.

I look forwarding to the next time you ask us this question again. Maybe capital letters will act as a reminder to how many times we have answered this question to you.

You are in my prayers

.

I’m curious. Are Baha’is prepared to worship God like how Muslims do in their prayers in the Mosques? I mean following the exact same Muslim model.

 

[Servant19]

I’m curious. Are Baha’is prepared to worship God like how Muslims do in their prayers in the Mosques? I mean following the exact same Muslim model.

Hello dear friend.

Baha’is are encouraged to engage in service with and dialogue with all communities from the major global religions.

Baha’is, during their times of prayerful devotion face the Qiblih (Point of Adoration) which is located in Bahji, on the plains of Sharon at the foothills of Mount Carmel, Israel.

Muslims face Mecca during their prayers in the mosque. To face Mecca will be indicative of a denial of our Lord in Bahji.

Hope this helps

.

 

[tonyfish58]

If God wanted us to have faith in multiple religions, then why did all Prophets that He sent abrogated the laws of their predecessors and announced to their adherents to accept the new revelations? I definitely believe there is only one true religion although this does not mean that anyone who claims some sort of divine connection is telling the truth.

This is a good question 1enlighten1. The Laws are changed by the Prophets to suit the age an maturity of mankind in the age they are revealed.

When mankind moves away from the laws and start doing what they want, God reminds us by sending anew message with new laws applicable to the age we live in.

The most important thing here is that God Doeth as He Willeth.

This is why Christ said I have more to say unto you!

Yes not all people tell the truth and many have claimed Divinity with God.

We must Test the Prophet and then His message.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

I’m curious. Are Baha’is prepared to worship God like how Muslims do in their prayers in the Mosques? I mean following the exact same Muslim model.

Dear 1enlighten1 - Baha’is Pray Morning and Evening and when they wish to

We have Obligatory Prayers that must be said, but no it does not follow exactly the Muslim Model.

We have 3 Obligatory Prayers to choose from and they include some different supplications. We Face the Point of Adoration during Obligatory Prayer, as Servant said this is near Akka or Haifa Israel.

Our Obligatory Prayers are said in Private and not said together in Congregation

We can, and a lot do, go to other places of worship and pray with other believers in God. God is One and we all Pray to the One and Only God and they are all His Houses of Worship!

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[eddie_too]

if a religion denies the reality of the Real Presence of Jesus Christ, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, in the Most Holy Eucharist, we can say with certainty that it is not the correct religion and it, at best, contains only elements of the Truth.

 

[1enlighten1]

Hello dear friend.

Baha’is are encouraged to engage in service with and dialogue with all communities from the major global religions.

Baha’is, during their times of prayerful devotion face the Qiblih (Point of Adoration) which is located in Bahji, on the plains of Sharon at the foothills of Mount Carmel, Israel.

Muslims face Mecca during their prayers in the mosque.** To face Mecca will be indicative of a denial of our Lord in Bahji. **

Hope this helps

.

Dear 1enlighten1 - Baha’is Pray Morning and Evening and when they wish to

We have Obligatory Prayers that must be said, but no it does not follow exactly the Muslim Model.

We have 3 Obligatory Prayers to choose from and they include some different supplications. We Face the Point of Adoration during Obligatory Prayer, as Servant said this is near Akka or Haifa Israel.

Our Obligatory Prayers are said in **Private and not said together in Congregation **

We can, and a lot do, go to other places of worship and pray with other believers in God. God is One and we all Pray to the One and Only God and they are all His Houses of Worship!

God Bless and Regards Tony

So basically, once you become a Baha’i, you no longer perform rituals like other religions and must not pray in congregation like the Muslims and facing Mecca will be a denial of your lord in Bahji. Hmm, I’ve been reading many narratives about Abdu’l-Baha one of your leaders performing the exact opposite of what you have mentioned. For instance he would attend the congregational Muslim Friday prayers in a mosque and would perform them facing Mecca:

"Till the very last day of His earthly life ‘Abdu’l-Bahá continued . . . On the Friday before His passing, despite great fatigue, He attended the noonday prayer at the mosque, and distributed afterwards alms, as was His custom, among the poor;"
Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By

 

[Matthew_Light]

Muslims face Mecca during their prayers in the mosque. To face Mecca will be indicative of a denial of our Lord in Bahji.

Well I wouldn’t say Baha’u’llah is in Bahji, but that’s a quibble.

Where is the citation that Baha’is cannot pray with Muslims? I understand that the Baha’i obligatory prayers are different, but I am not familiar with the law that we cannot pray with Muslims using their form of prayer.

 

[1enlighten1]

I just a found a clear reference in the Baha’i book of laws that mentions Congregational prayers like the Friday prayers have been annulled:

**"**Congregational **prayer, in the sense of formal obligatory prayer which is to be recited in accordance with a prescribed ritual as, for example, is the custom in Islám where **Friday prayer in the mosque is led by an imám, has been annulled in the Bahá’í Dispensation."