One correct religion with the Truth (part 2)?

[Servant19]

And therein lies the error in the Baha’i paradigm. Jesus is not just another of many. He is absolutely unique as the only begotten Son of God. No one compares to him; not Moses nor Zoroaster, nor Buddha, nor Krishna, nor Muhammad, nor Baha’u’llah. Denying Jesus’ uniqueness as the incarnation of the Almighty God is denying his very identity and missing the boat completely.

Well, anyone can make a claim, Servant. I could make that claim. What criteria do the Baha’i use to discern the validity of the claim?

Peace.

Steve

Dear friend, outside of the Resurrection, there is no discernable difference at all between the life of the Bab and the life of Jesus.

So if your sole criteria, dear friend, on deciding whether a being is Divine or not, is based on the resurrection only, then unfortunately I cannot help you, and it was pure luck therefore that Peter recognized Jesus as the Son of the Living God, for what He saw during Jesus’ pre-Resurrection life would be no different to the life of the Bab.

Was the Bab a deceiving magician? Was He a liar? Was His Revelation evil?

No fair-minded scholar could say that of the Bab.



.

 

[Servant19]

Love desires what is best for another.

If my two year old grandson wants to pick up a rattlesnake because he likes the sound it makes I will step in and do my best to prevent him from doing so even if he throws a fit.

If, while hiking in the mountains, I see someone taking the wrong trail to a particular destination I will say something to them to prevent them from going the wrong way.

There is such a thing as Truth. It is not relative to what one wishes to believe.

I believe that you are following a false prophet. So I will try to convince you, for the sake of love, to consider Christ. Your decision is your decision but I would it would not be loving to simply stand by and watch someone take the wrong path. In the end, it is your decision but I would not want to stand before Christ and have him ask me "Why did you not tell them about me? Why did you not follow my command to “teach all nations”?

Peace.

Steve

Ok I will try and address this point today Steve

When you equate my firm Faith in the Person and Revelation of Baha’u’llah to a picking up of a rattle snake, (I pray wholeheartedly that if Baha’u’llah is who He says He is that He will forgive you) you have to give valid reasons for that equation.

When Jesus says that only those who do the “Will of the Father” will enter the Kingdom of heaven, you have to show what aspects of Baha’u’llah’s teachings cause me to NOT do the Will of the Father.

I pray to the one God, every single day, multiple times
I have a heart that burns with loving kindness for all who cross my path
I spend endless hours educating multitudes of children and youth to have a world-embracing and prejudice free view of reality and to dedicate their lives to contribute towards the continual betterment of the social conditions of their communities.
I am baptised (even according to the Catholic Church) since I am striving according the best way I can to live according to the dictates of the Holy Spirit …

Can you tell me then please, how is my will so far apart from His Will that it be equated to a rattle snake?

And all this is done because of my love of God, and for nothing else, no payments, no accolades, no medals or awards, and no thankyou’s. And this is false? What Baha’u’llah asks of me is false, and goes AGAINST the Will of the Father?

Thankyou and God bless you

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

This is not and there are a lot of question that do not Just have a YES or No answer dear friend.

It would be a deception to a true seeker of truth to give an answer that is not explained within a proper context.

As our intent is to deceive no Soul, I have attempted an answer that to me gave the answer you were after. Thus I will leave it at that and acknowledge my inabilities.

Regards Tony

This is where talk breaks down. It is a Yes or no question. It is a fairly straightforward question if we understand truth. What is truth? Truth is reality, it is what is, it is the right understanding of things. I can only but conclude you do not want to give the answer you know to be true, that Christianity is an aberration of the truth. Your religion either forbids you or you sincerely are not sure what you believe.

Now servant says Truth doesn’t revolve around Jesus. Now Christianity says Jesus is the way the Truth and the LIght, that no one comes to the father except through him. JEsus himself says all judgement has been given to the son. John tells us he was the light that gives light to every man coming into the word. We are told he is the very creator. We are told that the father says to him “Your throne O God is forever.” We are told he is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. We are told heaven and earth shall pass away but he shall remain. That he is greater than Moses, that he is greater than the angels and that John the baptist whom Christ called the greatest born by woman did not even find himself worthy to baptise Jesus. The father says to the son “This is my son whom I love.” We are told he sits at the right hand of God. We told that is by him we have been saved, that by one sacrifice which does not need to be repeated he redeemed men. We are told the earth is his foot stool. We are told that he had the authority to forgive sins. We are told that we will all bow to him in the end of times.

So when you say Jesus, who is the truth, does not have the truth revolve around him I can only conclude one thing. Either everything said of Jesus was only for a time. That he was at one time the creator of heaven and earth but now he is not. He was at one time the way the truth and the light but he is not anymore. That his sacrifice was at one time once for all but now is not at all for all. Maybe at one time he was the word that was with God and was God but is not today the word that was with God and was God.

My my. All of that is said of Christ in the scripture which you claim to believe but that doesn’t answer my question. Is Christianity equally true and valid to Bahai? You say it is. Christians have said all the things I have said since the begining, the proof of it being the bible itself and the tradition of the church. Were all these things once true but now are not true? Or did Christians simply misunderstand them untill the enlightened persian came and corrected us who sat at the apostles feet, were those established by them for the propigation of the word and we just utterly failed? Which is it? What do you mean when you say:
Truth lay in Christianity. You could mean a many number of things and you thought you could get away with it, being so crafty that no one might notice that you are being deliberately vague. It’s time to be specific. Let me ask you this. Is my Christianity, the Christianity of the ORthodox church, in fact ill even add Roman Catholics, ORientals, Protestants into the mix as well. That basic Christianity which agrees about the things concerning Christ, is this true? Will any of these accomplish for the believer what the bahai religion accomplishes for you? In your next sojourn in your next spiritual life will you be placed ahead of me for your faith in your prophet and for my lack of faith in your prophet?

Could it be said that Shogi effendi’s explanation on the trinity is as equally true as the fathers of NIcaea and Constantinople in the creed concerning the persons and substance of God? Will you confess the Nicene/constantinopolitan creed?

No, you will avoid and give a vague answer as usual. At this point dialogue between bahai and the Christian should be realised an impossibility. Not on any part of the Christian but on part of the bahai for being unwilling to confront what they know to be error, the error of the Christian church which your prophet corrected.

You will give a vague answer to these important questions about the nature of truth and God but you will give specific answers as to social programs I’ve noticed. Social agendas. For instance if I asked you what would be better, a world divided or a world united in one big happy family, sharing the same government, religion, language and etc, well I know the answer you would give. You value the world above the truth and that is what distinguishes bahai from Christianity. You have no care towards spiritual things.

 

[SteveVH]

I am sorry that I ever came back to a Baha’i thread. I no longer have any interest in discussing anything with people of this mindset. I am outa here. Have fun, folks.

 

[eddie_too]

I think it is important to emphasize the Bahaullah does not offer nor does he provide for the salvation of human souls.

salvation is only available through Jesus Christ.

so, whatever reasons a person might have for idolizing Bahaullah, they should always keep in the front of their mind that Bahaullah cannot save them but Jesus Christ can.

in addition, the bahai do not worship Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.

if Bahaullah were really a representative of the One God, he, himself, would have bowed in adoration before the Holy Eucharist and he would have encouraged every other human being to do likewise.

for me, bahuallah’s overlooking the Real Presence is enough evidence to prove that Bahaullah is not from the One God.

there is no way possible that a true representative of the One God would not worship and adore the Holy Eucharist.

it is not possible that God would send a messenger that would ignore, at best, the Divine Presence in the Blessed Sacrament.

it is also not possible that the Blessed Sacrament only existed until Bahaullah arrived. that is because the Holy Eucharist is the means by which human beings are able to be in perfect communion with the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of their Creator.

there is little more irrational than the belief that our Creator would give Himself to us in the Blessed Sacrament and then take Himself away because some human being thought that himself and the rest of us would not benefit from being in communion with the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Creator.

I think it is a waste of time for people to try and distort and diminish the Holy Eucharist.

 

[eddie_too]

the bottom line difference between Christians and all other belief systems is that Christians accept that the One God, their Creator and the Creator of all that has been and will be created, is Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ in not a manifestation. He is THE INCARNATION.

these two words, manifestation and incarnation, do not have the same meaning when used by Christians.

 

[Servant19]

I am sorry that I ever came back to a Baha’i thread. I no longer have any interest in discussing anything with people of this mindset. I am outa here. Have fun, folks.

Terribly sorry to hear that Steve.

I hope and pray that it was not my tardiness in responding to your excellent questions and the points you raised, that has caused you to feel pushed away…
(I honestly have been going through a very busy time the past few days)

I wish you and your loved ones all the very best

God bless you!

.

 

[Servant19]

Now servant says Truth doesn’t revolve around Jesus.

Hello Ignatian.

If you go back and read my post again, you will see that I never said that. You made an assumption.

I said that Truth does not revolve around the “idea” that Jesus was Resurrected or that He is God (by this I mean ontologically God)…none of these really matter in the context of “He who does the Will of the Father enters the Kingdom of heaven”

What you and I “DO” on a day to day basis does not revolve around these concepts and “historical specificities”

God bless you!



.

 

[Servant19]

So when you say Jesus, who is the truth, does not have the truth revolve around him I can only conclude one thing. Either everything said of Jesus was only for a time. That he was at one time the creator of heaven and earth but now he is not. He was at one time the way the truth and the light but he is not anymore. That his sacrifice was at one time once for all but now is not at all for all. Maybe at one time he was the word that was with God and was God but is not today the word that was with God and was God.

"Unintelligent men, who do not know Me perfectly, think that I, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, was impersonal before and have now assumed this personality. Due to their small fund of knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is imperishable and supreme."—Sri Krishna, Bhagavad-gita 7.24

Krishna said the same things before Jesus, and Baha’u’llah said the same things after Jesus.

What do you conclude dear friend? And why?



.

 

[tonyfish58]

This is where talk breaks down. It is a Yes or no question. It is a fairly straightforward question if we understand truth.

IgnatianPhilo - I will answer one point as this is indeed the essence of the discussion.

The question you asked is as Straight Forward as this question to Jesus by the High Priest - Matthew26:63 But Jesus kept silent…

And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.”

A question that could have a Yes or No Answer, but Jesus said in verse 64 Jesus said to him,…

“You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.”

The answer far deeper than the high priest could handle and he flew into a rage. But the answer was appropriate.

Dear IgnatianPhilo - I am sure you read this verse often, how deep is its meaning? Does it answer the question asked? Why was it not given just as a yes or no answer?

The Bible is full of these examples, so why then do people wish for a yes and No answer when that would not do justice to the question asked? A yes and a No does not impart the Spirit of the Word required in the answer.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

What do you mean when you say:
Truth lay in Christianity. You could mean a many number of things and you thought you could get away with it, being so crafty that no one might notice that you are being deliberately vague. It’s time to be specific. Let me ask you this. Is my Christianity, the Christianity of the ORthodox church, in fact ill even add Roman Catholics, ORientals, Protestants into the mix as well. That basic Christianity which agrees about the things concerning Christ, is this true? Will any of these accomplish for the believer what the bahai religion accomplishes for you?

Dear friend, is it true that milk is the ONLY way for life in sustaining a baby?

Imagine for one moment that a human’s life span was only 1 years of age. In this situation, the ONLY food of life is milk. This statement is true, is it not?

So one day, we see that we can live beyond 1 years of age. Just imagine. Suddenly milk is not the only food of life any more.

Things evolve, dear friend.

Our ability to grasp things evolve. Our ability to understand evolves. When humanity progresses, we develop on a consciousness level. As a result, we are able to discern between reality and myth.

God works in the same way. Why would God send a Messenger to the caveman telling him to discover the realities of life in Mars, for example. The caveman hasn’t even discovered himself as yet, nor his own natural surroundings, why introduce Mars?

We now know about life after death, the importance of prayer, fasting, contemplation. We have created united communities, cities, nations. We have all these foundations, its time to created a united world. It’s time to strip away some of the symbolic actions of prayer, some of the ritual and empower ourselves with a “devotional attitude” in all our endeavours, not just once a week on a sunday, or five times a day.

Let’s make our lives like one beautiful prayer.

We are now capable of understanding things like this, BECAUSE of the foundations laid by Moses and Jesus in the Western world, Zoroaster and Muhammad in the Arabian peninsula, and Krishna, Buddha in the Far East.

We can LEARN from all these traditions, these beautiful and diverse means of aligning ourselves into correct relationship with our Creator, and forge forward to pursue even more wonderful pursuits never seen before in the history of humanity.

In your next sojourn in your next spiritual life will you be placed ahead of me for your faith in your prophet and for my lack of faith in your prophet?

"Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity." - Baha’u’llah

Anyone who recognizes the commandments of Jesus will recognize the commandments of Baha’u’llah as being from the same Source. Jesus never commanded that you must “believe that I am God”, nor did He ever command that “all must believe in my physical Resurrection”…

John 15:16.***… that you should go, and should bring forth fruit; and your fruit should remain: that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

17 These things I command you, that you love one another*.**

Can you please point out one instance where Jesus commands His chosen ones to fight for Truth over this thing called “love”…

This is why Tony keeps talking about this “love” thing. Silly as it sounds to you, its the foundation of Christ…



.

 

[tonyfish58]

This is why Tony keeps talking about this “love” thing. Silly as it sounds to you, its the foundation of Christ…

I was thinking about this, that Christ so Loved us All that He gave His Life for All.

The essence of Christ, Love for all

Love transcends mans understandings, love transcends mans doctrines. If our understanding and doctrines take us from Sharing this Love with all, then what use are they?

Before there was Learning and Doctrines, there was Gods Love. What better Fruit to be judged by

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

"I am a soldier in my King’s Army; I have given up my will to Him, and my life is His to dispose of as He may please.

I know not what fate Thou designest for me, not what work Thou hast ordained for me, nor will I enquire nor seek to know. The task of the day suffices for me, and all the future is Thine.

Little by little Thou trainest me. Little by little Thou changest weakness to strength, doubt to faith, perplexity to understanding. When I am fit to bear the burden Thou wilt lay it on my shoulders. When I am prepared to take the field Thou wilt assign me a place in Thy army of Light. Now I have no other duty than to equip myself for Thy service.

With eagerness and patience, with hope and gratitude I bend to the task of the hour lest when Thy call to battle comes I be found unready".

bahai-library.com/uhj_hollow_reed_prayers

Regards Tony

 

[Denise1957]

Dear friend, is it true that milk is the ONLY way for life in sustaining a baby?

Imagine for one moment that a human’s life span was only 1 years of age. In this situation, the ONLY food of life is milk. This statement is true, is it not?

So one day, we see that we can live beyond 1 years of age. Just imagine. Suddenly milk is not the only food of life any more.

Things evolve, dear friend.

Our ability to grasp things evolve. Our ability to understand evolves. When humanity progresses, we develop on a consciousness level. As a result, we are able to discern between reality and myth.

God works in the same way. Why would God send a Messenger to the caveman telling him to discover the realities of life in Mars, for example. The caveman hasn’t even discovered himself as yet, nor his own natural surroundings, why introduce Mars?

We now know about life after death, the importance of prayer, fasting, contemplation. We have created united communities, cities, nations. We have all these foundations, its time to created a united world. It’s time to strip away some of the symbolic actions of prayer, some of the ritual and empower ourselves with a “devotional attitude” in all our endeavours, not just once a week on a sunday, or five times a day.

Let’s make our lives like one beautiful prayer.

We are now capable of understanding things like this, BECAUSE of the foundations laid by Moses and Jesus in the Western world, Zoroaster and Muhammad in the Arabian peninsula, and Krishna, Buddha in the Far East.

We can LEARN from all these traditions, these beautiful and diverse means of aligning ourselves into correct relationship with our Creator, and forge forward to pursue even more wonderful pursuits never seen before in the history of humanity.

"Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity." - Baha’u’llah

Anyone who recognizes the commandments of Jesus will recognize the commandments of Baha’u’llah as being from the same Source. Jesus never commanded that you must “believe that I am God”, nor did He ever command that “all must believe in my physical Resurrection”…

John 15:16.***… that you should go, and should bring forth fruit; and your fruit should remain: that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

17 These things I command you, that you love one another***.

Can you please point out one instance where Jesus commands His chosen ones to fight for Truth over this thing called “love”…

This is why Tony keeps talking about this “love” thing. Silly as it sounds to you, its the foundation of Christ…



.

Sounds very much like Theosophy. Humanity progresses…evolves…develops on a consciousness level. I’ve heard it all before, in many different ways. One of the (many) problems I have with Theosophy is that it promotes supposed unity of religions based seeing the common “truths” in all religions. The problem, however, is that Theosophy, and I assume your views as well, do not allow Catholicism to define itself. Rather, Theosophy (and your views, too) redefine our religion according to fit a certain model

For instance. When speaking of Love as the foundation of Christ…what do you do with the Ten Commandments which Jesus upheld? The Ten Commandments aren’t all about peace and love.

 

[Servant19]

Sounds very much like Theosophy. Humanity progresses…evolves…develops on a consciousness level. I’ve heard it all before, in many different ways. One of the (many) problems I have with Theosophy is that it promotes supposed unity of religions based seeing the common “truths” in all religions. The problem, however, is that Theosophy, and I assume your views as well, do not allow Catholicism to define itself. Rather, Theosophy (and your views, too) redefine our religion according to fit a certain model

Hello Denise, and thankyou for your thoughts

Does not Catholicism redefine Judaism to fit to a certain model?
A triune God.
Sabbath Laws changed, etc etc

For instance. When speaking of Love as the foundation of Christ…what do you do with the Ten Commandments which Jesus upheld? The Ten Commandments aren’t all about peace and love.

I would say that every single commandment of the Old Testament is borne out of love.
Justice and fairness are not unloving virtues
Don’t you think?

.

 

[tonyfish58]

Sounds very much like Theosophy. Humanity progresses…evolves…develops on a consciousness level. I’ve heard it all before, in many different ways. One of the (many) problems I have with Theosophy is that it promotes supposed unity of religions based seeing the common “truths” in all religions. The problem, however, is that Theosophy, and I assume your views as well, do not allow Catholicism to define itself. Rather, Theosophy (and your views, too) redefine our religion according to fit a certain model

For instance. When speaking of Love as the foundation of Christ…what do you do with the Ten Commandments which Jesus upheld? The Ten Commandments aren’t all about peace and love.

Denise1957 - Thank you for the reply and question. I would say that Jesus also added a new Command that is as follows;

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another”. John 13:34 NIV

The following is The 10 Commandments List, in a Short Form

You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.

How are these against Peace and Love, these are Standards that allow us to Achieve Peace and Love.

Could it not be that if we had all lived these as commanded, then the Kingdom of God on Earth would already be Realized?

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Denise1957]

Hello Denise, and thankyou for your thoughts

Does not Catholicism redefine Judaism to fit to a certain model?
A triune God.
Sabbath Laws changed, etc etc

I would say that every single commandment of the Old Testament is borne out of love.
Justice and fairness are not unloving virtues
Don’t you think?

.

No, Catholicism does not redefine Judaism. The Jews were fiercely monotheistic. And the first commandment as given by God is that we shall have no other gods before Him.

What do I think about justice and fairness as not unloving virtues? It depends on how you define justice.

 

[Denise1957]

Denise1957 - Thank you for the reply and question. I would say that Jesus also added a new Command that is as follows;

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another”. John 13:34 NIV

The following is The 10 Commandments List, in a Short Form

You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.

How are these against Peace and Love, these are Standards that allow us to Achieve Peace and Love.

Could it not be that if we had all lived these as commanded, then the Kingdom of God on Earth would already be Realized?

God Bless and Regards Tony

So what then happens when we willfully and with culpability break these commandments?

 

[tonyfish58]

No, Catholicism does not redefine Judaism. The Jews were fiercely monotheistic. And the first commandment as given by God is that we shall have no other gods before Him.

What do I think about justice and fairness as not unloving virtues? It depends on how you define justice.

Denise1957 - Would we not define Gods Laws as the Most Great Justice?

Thus Gods Ultimate Love Provides us with the Laws required to Achieve that Love.

Submit to the Laws you submit to Gods Love - God knows what we need, we do not.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

So what then happens when we willfully and with culpability break these commandments?

Denise1957 - The Bible can play the answers out for us there

John 14:15 ESV - “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

John 2:4 ESV - “Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,”

Romans 12:19 ESV - "Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

God Bless and Regards Tony