one faith one church

[patro]

Let us say,theirs a bishop of Buffalo,a bishop of Chicago,a bishop of Africa ,a bishop of Greece etc…all hold fast to the same true faith. Who then is the absolute head of the church?? The pope or Jesus,take your pick. Well some will say what happens when an issue arises about the faith? Well what happend for the first 1000 yrs of the undivided church. Councils were held. We have the great 7 ecumenical councils just like they were modeled in the acts of the apostles.” it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and US". No need for a monarchy. Well what about Matthew 18 “upon this rock”,is not the rock the true faith that Jesus is the messiah,the cornerstone that the whole edifice rests on, yes it is built on peter(petra) which means stone, and all the apostles and prophets who proclaim the true faith,we all make up the" little stones" of the true church, does it not say that my church is infallible. We are all united in true faith from each bishop in our community representing the whole complete catholic church. Like Ignatius said “where the bishop is there is the catholic church”. Well what about the pope,are you aware that there are popes in the orthodox church today such as the pope of Alexandria . It is a Latin word meaning father or patriarch…and an interesting side note,peter was in Antioch before ever going to Rome,what of the orthodox bishop of Antioch ? He is a direct successor of St Peter.Should he not make the same claims as the roman bishop?The highest order in the church is bishop, all being equal in autority and preseving the true faith. Peter being the first among equals is clear in the scriptures and also the history of the church before the great schism or should say the sad schism. In fact the doctrine of infallibility was not even instituted until 1860 !!! Should that not say something there? Let the roman church put JESUS as the true head of the church ,not by means of some channeling thru a monarch but thru the true spirit of unity that unite us ,then i believe all the other issues that divide shall be reconciled in love and clear understanding. Not in judgment or condemnation. The church needs to be one and not only eastern. let noone ever say that to be orthodox you have to be eastern!!! East and west must grow together like two trees in one soil with their cultures and traditions .The leaders of east and west may have failed us who are" just the laymen", is not the church the “pillar and bulwark of truth” I will teach my Church all things". Let the schism heal from the bottom up ,its not working the other way round.I have been raised a roman cathoilc and still love all the beauty and traditions of the western church… but that my friend is another story. It’s been over a thousand years and our hierarchy has failed to bring us one iota closer to unity. Can we start the conversation. it mattered to Jesus when ,“I pray that they are one”,why doesn’t it matter to us? are we above that??

 

[Kei]

You seem to hold several misconceptions.

The head is the pope and Jesus. The pope is like a diplomat. As the Church is the visible mystical Body of Jesus, the pope is the visible head. What is a body without a head?

But, during the first thousand years, we had a pope. We had councils as well, but we still had popes. All the way to Peter. We still have Councils in the present day, and we still have a pope to the present day. They are not mutually exclusive things.

Abraham was the rock, this is Jewish tradition, so you see, Peter is the rock, like Abraham, it is not on what he said but the person. His name changed completely. Contemplate this: St Peter is the rock, but Jesus is the Rock. Perhaps you will understand the papacy from this meditation.

 

[po18guy]

Paragraphs!!!

Christ set up His Church with Peter as prime. Period. To argue otherwise is nonsense.

Dig back into history and please stop listening to those who preach division. The Catholic (“Universal”) Church is the divinely intended and ONLY hope for Christian unity. She did not break off from the East - they did! And not all of the East broke off! And further, some of the East that did break off later returned. Epic fail there, huh?

Listen to yourself! Unity begins with you, and you are opposing the will of Christ that we first deny ourselves, take up our crosses and then follow Him. You desire that the entire Church conform to your will.

Your idea of ground-up reform/rebellion/revolution describes Soviet or Chinese communism. God governs from top down, and there is no vacancy in His position.

Far better to take that active spirit of yours and devote it to constant prayer for unity.

Full story, bro’

 

[patro]

Sorry about my bad grammar. First of all I am not preaching rebellion,forgive me if it came across like that. I am trying to make the point that unity should be an important issue. It was a concern for Jesus, it should be for us. It is clear if you study a little history and you will discover that the western church (Rome) broke of with the east. There were many reasons, the filloque being a major one. Rome can be viewed as the first protestants, inserting a personal interpretation into the creed that was already established by the council. The Vatican councils are not the same as the seven ecumenical ones. I know Catholics get aggressive about these issues, they seem so clear with the protestant reformation but when it comes to the orthodox, things get blurry. All they can parrot is “upon this rock”. Read what St Augustine says about this. Be open, do some study, you will see a different picture. False doctrines such as the fillioque,immaculate conception, loss of reverence for communion, holy mass etc…all the effects of a church hierarchy that has broken from the true faith. You are right ,we must conform to unity, you see it in a monarch ,the orthodox understand it in a unity of faith with Jesus as the Head, we the body. Each Bishop holds the true faith and every orthodox are under their bishop, again no higher order than that Bishop. With a monarchy there can never be a true counsel. Pope to you means monarch but history speaks differently, again do some study and you will see that pope is a western patriarch, “first amongst equals” due to the fact of Rome’s affluence but never was it understood as a patriarch lording over the other patriarchs. You are also right ,their are some uniate churches that were once orthodox ,again do some study and you will find many went under Rome for political protection. Not Doctrinally,look through a uniate book on the liturgy and read the creed, The laity have a choice if they can say the filloque or not! Guess all that matters is if they are under the monarch or not, forget about doctrine. I do pray for unity,that is one of the reasons why I am involved in this forum. I know my grammer is bad but my heart is open. A good book to read is ‘The Orthodox Church’ by Timothy Ware.

 

[po18guy]

Sorry, but your view does not square with history or reality. How can the 1,000 year old Bishop of Rome, universally held as the final authority in disputes since AD 33, break off?

Red herring? The filioque is one such. How can God in Christ be devoid of the Holy Spirit? How can that love, which is the Holy Spirit be confined to the Father? Does Christ possess the Spirit only when the Father gives it ti Him? That makes Christ of a different substance, a different nature from the Father, does it not? If they are consubstantial, arguing against the filioque strikes me as nonsensical. It seems to re-define the trinity into something vastly different.

Unity with the Orthodox. Fine. Which orthodox? Greek? Oriental? Russian? Ukrainian? Tasmanian? OK, joking there. But the point is that the Orthodox, for all their history, all their beauty, all their Apostolic origins, are tied to nationality and ethnicity. That excludes them from being universal as Christ intended.

Even they are not united - differing on doctrines from differing numbers of councils they are willing to accept. I think your efforts are far better directed at Orthodox unity first.

As to the Orthodox, I find that many of them are often unhappy, even hostile toward the Catholic Church. I have mistaken some of them for evangelical Protestants - by their attitudes, their dispositions.

That tells me, rightly or wrongly, that the same spirit drives both groups.

 

[joeybaggz]

Reading the posts so far, the only thing I can say is that I miss the old popcorn emoji.

No amount of truth or evidence/proof is going to sway this guy’s OP and his subsequent argument. Though not a troll, I’d say this is simply a “baiting” post. Let’s move on.

 

[chieft]

Concerning Marriage Who first said “What God has Joined, let no man separate”. We are the bride of Christ. By the way, How many women can a man divorce in the orthodox church ? I believe 3 right ? Why not 4 ? or 12 ?

 

[po18guy]

It is good to challenge him. I am not nearly as much into argumentation unless it bears fruits. This, I am afraid, is up to him.

Another option is to simply disregard this thread. I disregard dozens daily.

 

[joeybaggz]

It is good to challenge him. I am not nearly as much into argumentation unless it bears fruits. This, I am afraid, is up to him.

Another option is to simply disregard this thread. I disregard dozens daily.

Ditto …

 

[patro]

sorry guys,i do not have an mischievous motives,i am not sure what baiting is or for that matter what is a thread. I have some true concerns and questions but whoever said just pray about it is what I will do. Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)uts and I guess lets celebrate what we do have in common. I have no animosity against the catholic church, was one for a long time.I started going to the uniate church and that’s what led me to the orthodox church. I didnt leave because of this or that person,that’s just foolish. Its been doctrinal. I don’t claim to have all the answers and my heart seems to be still with the roman church .My family was not happy when I left and saly didn’t even receive communion at my fathers funeral because of my conversion.I feel strange many times in the orthodox church because of the different customs, they have great people like in the roman and protestant church’s and some no too great p. lol,.
Orthodoxy is relatively new to America.But I have to follow my conscience and discern where God wants me to be and if I can truly reconcile my major obstacles about primacy and a few other doctrines I would be happy to be roman catholic. At this point , I am doin what I can to understand things .Its been difficult, many of the orthodox priests around here are foreign and hard to have a conversation with. I travel some distance just to go to liturgy when there are beautiful catholic churchs all around me. I live 1 mile form one of the most beautiful in America. look on line at "Our Lady of Victory in Lackawanna NY, where Father Baker is very close to being canonized. In the orthodox church he would already have been canonized just on the fact that he has been inspiring faith till today.I just have to push the issue a little more about my concerns and let Our Lord guide me. Thank you very much and I am always open to hear what any have to say.This is a complex issue and dont think it can be solved by just one thought. That is also something else I need to work on,just trust and relax and let God work.