One final time: freedom of will does NOT logically lead to evil actions

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I believe that it is impossible if there was no cause for an oak tree to be planted there rather than the cause for the pine tree to be planted.
That is not the point. First, those trees are not “planted”. It just so happens that a seed “got there”. It could have happened that a different seed “got there”. What is “impossible” about that?
Every event of consequence of today absolutely must be reflected in tomorrow. Absolutely every event of consequence yesterday, must be reflected today.

That is what they determinism.

Due to determinism, no event can take place without its cause having occurred prior. That means that whatever you have today, had a cause and whatever happened yesterday had a cause.
What does the word “cause” mean to you? When we talk about possible free will, we do not deny that there are “prior causes” which will instigate a decision. We don’t deny that some external factors may “influence” the decision. However, if “free will” has any meaning, than these factors cannot “determine” the outcome of the decision.
Today reflects the only possible future from ALL that took place yesterday. What might have changed yesterday, wasn’t there to change it any more than it did.
Which is strict determinism, and the denial of any free will. That is cool by me. If you wish to deny free will, then my argument collapses, since the assumption of free will is a cruical prerequiste. Along with it the concept of responsiblity also disappears. We are back to the Newtonian wolrdview - a giant clockwork - which moves from the past to one possible future. That worldview has been rejected by the results of modern physics.
So yes, I see the world as one uninterrupted causal chain. And so does every other logician on the planet. Logic itself can’t exist without it, nor mathematics, nor Science, nor language, nor a mind.
I wonder if “every” logician would agree. But logicians’ opinion hardly counts when nature does not work the way they assumed. On the quantum level it certainly seems that causality breaks down. And on the macro level the second law of thermodynamics is definitely a stochastic law, not deterministic. Nature does not “care” about the neat little boxes we come up with and try to put its attributes into those boxes.
The universe you have is the only one God could have possibly caused. It is what it is.
That would speak volumes about God’s omnipotence, wouldn’t it? Also of God’s free will. And ours, too.
 
Whether or not one has a valid argument does not depend on whether or not one believes one’s own premises!
Very true. However, if one has a logical argument and the result still fails, then there must be something wrong with the presupposed starting point. You can pick any or all of them: the assumption of free will, God’s omniscience, etc…
I don’t suppose you happen to have read Leibniz’s De ipsa natura sive de vi insita actionibusque creaturarum? Anyway, obviously, ex hypothesi, free will starts a ‘new’ (local) causal chain, but that causal chain is not uncaused, it is caused by the free agent, and, again, ex hypothesi, the causality of free agents is necessarily, by definition of ‘world’, part of the overall network of causal chains which we call a ‘world’. And this world (this network of causes, whether you want to say that it can or cannot include “free will”) is, ex hypothesi (that means, if you’re unsure, according to the premise of your argument, whether or not you believe in the truth of that premise;)), chosen by God. Etc. QED.
Again, caused, determined, influenced are not interchangable. If the agent’s decision is determined by outside factors, then there is no free will. If the agent is the causative factor, then a brand new causal chain “pops out of nowhere” (which of course would make mincemeat of the “first cause argument”).
 
how is it uncharitable to speak my mind??? to be honest??? should i keep my honest thoughts to myself??? When posting things here, people should be considerate of others… others who don’t have hours and hours to spend on the i-net… esp when there are seemingly milions of Threads to choose from. i happen to believe its a sin to waste time. I am guilty of this sin… but am working on it… as others probably are… We (some) are trying to use our time wisely… I have every right to complain when something is worded in a convoluted, problematic way that most people cannot readily understand.
So you reserve the right to speak your mind - but refuse to grant that right to others? I wonder why?
 
I really don’t see anything complicated. No Catholic argures that evil is necessary.
They sure do. They say that it is the necessary result of having free will. If you read the thread, you will see that many argue precisely that. Other Catholics (like you) disagree.
As a further clarification, when man chooses the “good” his act is but an effect of the cause of all goodness – God. However, when man chooses evil, he is its sole cause.
This is what I call “cherry-picking”. 🙂
 
Very true. However, if one has a logical argument and the result still fails, then there must be something wrong with the presupposed starting point. You can pick any or all of them: the assumption of free will, God’s omniscience, etc…

Again, caused, determined, influenced are not interchangable. If the agent’s decision is determined by outside factors, then there is no free will. If the agent is the causative factor, then a brand new causal chain “pops out of nowhere” (which of course would make mincemeat of the “first cause argument”).
Please clarify. I just claimed (demonstrated!) that your argument was not logically valid. Yet you’re still claiming that it was ‘logical’ but the ‘result’ failed? What is that supposed to mean? Could you try to use the standard logical vocabulary in the standard way? Thanks!

(As for your second paragraph, I don’t know what you’re getting at other than question-begging (or just changing the subject) and ignoring the fact that your not believing in the premises of your own argument is irrelevant; no construction of an invalid argument shows that the conclusion of that argument ‘fails.’)
 
Please clarify. I just claimed (demonstrated!) that your argument was not logically valid. Yet you’re still claiming that it was ‘logical’ but the ‘result’ failed? What is that supposed to mean? Could you try to use the standard logical vocabulary in the standard way? Thanks!
I am confused. Where is the logical error?
(As for your second paragraph, I don’t know what you’re getting at other than question-begging (or just changing the subject) and ignoring the fact that your not believing in the premises of your own argument is irrelevant; no construction of an invalid argument shows that the conclusion of that argument ‘fails.’)
It is the need for clarification. “Caused”, “influenced” and “determined” are not the same concepts. What do you mean my “caused”?

An example: if I am hungry, that hunger will cause (determine) an unpleasant feeling. What I am going to eat is influenced by the available foods, and my current disposition or preference. If I have free will, these are determining and influencing factors, but my actual choice is something up to me - my selection of food is not **caused **by these factors. Clarity is of utmost importance.
 
I am confused. Where is the logical error?
Some don’t consider it an error in logic if the premises are the only fault.

(you cannot believe in “cause and effect” or determinism and presume God a free choice to produce anything other than what he did.)

As I tried to point out, the truth value of the premises leads to a false conclusion. The logical flow between the premises and the conclusion is another matter and can be quite valid.
 
Some don’t consider it an error in logic if the premises are the only fault.

As I tried to point out, the truth value of the premises leads to a false conclusion. The logical flow between the premises and the conclusion is another matter and can be quite valid.
Indeed, and that is the difference between a logically valid and a logically sound arguments. I accepted that if the world is deterministic (no free will) then the result of the argument fails. What you did not demonstrate yet, that the starting parameters could not have been chosen in a different fashion - so the world would be different from what it is today. And that is what you claimed - this is the only **possible **world.
 
Logic dictates that for each “true cause” there is but one and only one effect (definition of “cause”) and for the effect of this world being what it is, there was a cause of it. That cause had to produce what it causes - this world and only this world.

I stated it many ways. You can’t get around it. There are no “other possible worlds” if you believe in cause and effect simply because those proposed worlds had no cause, else they would be here.

God chose this world by his “cause”. There was no cause for him to do otherwise. He could never have chosen another. Your premise is false.

And none of this has to do with Free-will.
 
Logic dictates that for each “true cause” there is but one and only one effect (definition of “cause”) and for the effect of this world being what it is, there was a cause of it. That cause had to produce what it causes - this world and only this world.
Which is simply incorrect. An avalanche (for example) may have multiple effects.
I stated it many ways. You can’t get around it. There are no “other possible worlds” if you believe in cause and effect simply because those proposed worlds had no cause, else they would be here.
Cause and effect are a useful description of our observations, which indicate stuff like: “it is raining, therefore the pavement gets wet and slippery and it may cause a flash flood, etc…”. There is no reason to assume that such relationships are universal, and without exceptions. And the quantum world seems to be such an exception. The big problem with philosophers is that they come up with general ideas, which may or may not be correct descriptions of how nature actually operates. As I said, our neat little boxes sometimes are improper to hold the actual phenomena of nature. In such a case I would say: “let’s create new boxes”. You seem to say: “too bad for the facts”.
God chose this world by his “cause”. There was no cause for him to do otherwise. He could never have chosen another. Your premise is false.
And what determined God’s “cause”? As soon as you stipulate that God is the final “cause”, you contradict that everything needs a “cause”.
And none of this has to do with Free-will.
It has everything to do with it. In a determistic universe there is no “free will”, there is no responsibility. The perpetrator of a crime can simply say: “my act was caused by somthing in my past, and I am not responsible”.
 
Which is simply incorrect. An avalanche (for example) may have multiple effects.
Any one avalanche caused exactly what it caused and nothing else. If you could rewind time and play it again, you would see the exact same effect as the first time. Do you expect the rerun of a movie to have a different ending?

To have a different effect, there must be a different cause. ALL of Science is about that very thing. In Science, they say, “We tried it exactly this way, and we get exactly that result, therefore, if anyone tries it exactly this way, they too will get exactly that result.”

And Science has never, ever found anything to occur without having a cause. So yes, there certainly is “reason to assume” cause and effect.

If you do not believe in Science and you do not believe in cause and effect then you cannot believe in logic. Without believing in logic, there is no point in having this entire discussion.
And what determined God’s “cause”? As soon as you stipulate that God is the final “cause”, you contradict that everything needs a “cause”.
I don’t need to name or point out God’s cause to know that he had one. If God knows all things, why would he choose less than the best option available? There can only be one “best”. Why would God choose anything else? If God had a goal and he isn’t stupid, he would choose in accord with that goal. Those would be his causes to lead him to the one choice he made even if he had a other options.
It has everything to do with it. In a determistic universe there is no “free will”, there is no responsibility.
Did you read the thread, “Empirical Proof of Free-will”? Or do you not believe in empirical evidence either?
The perpetrator of a crime can simply say: “my act was caused by somthing in my past, and I am not responsible”.
No, “who gets the blame” is a different question than “what was the cause”.

“Responsible” means “response-able” or the ability to respond. If you have the ability to respond to a potential problem yet do not do so, then you might get the blame. What caused the problem is another issue.

If a mother leaves her baby in a closed-up car that gets too hot and kills the baby, do you say, “well the Sun caused it, not the mother.” The mother is “response-able” to prevent the death even though she was not the cause of the overheating. She was the cause for the solution not being applied.

But if you cannot see these things. It is very clear that you cannot see logic or reasoning by reading it and thus continuing this discussion is pointless.

Online discussion has a limited communication ability. It requires that the reader be able to think more on his own than face to face discussion.
 
Any one avalanche caused exactly what it caused and nothing else.
Backpedalling? You said that **one **cause has **exactly one **effect. An avalanche (for example) is one cause with multiple effects. And sometimes there are **multiple **cause to produce **one **effect.
And Science has never, ever found anything to occur without having a cause. So yes, there certainly is “reason to assume” cause and effect.
Science did in quantum events. Generally causation holds up pretty well. But that practical assumption is NOT a metaphysical certainty.
If you do not believe in Science and you do not believe in cause and effect then you cannot believe in logic. Without believing in logic, there is no point in having this entire discussion.
Who forces you to participate?
I don’t need to name or point out God’s cause to know that he had one. If God knows all things, why would he choose less than the best option available? There can only be one “best”. Why would God choose anything else? If God had a goal and he isn’t stupid, he would choose in accord with that goal. Those would be his causes to lead him to the one choice he made even if he had a other options.
That would be plausible if this world were static. But it is not. Sometimes it gets better, sometimes it gets worse. A good designer would not create something that fluctuates between extremes. He would create exactly whay he intends, and would allow no deviation from the “best” state of affairs.
Did you read the thread, “Empirical Proof of Free-will”? Or do you not believe in empirical evidence either?
I looked at it. It is sheer nonsense. Free will could be proven if
  1. we could take a snapshot of the universe.
  2. we could store it outside the universe.
  3. we could “rewind” the universe to a prior state.
  4. we would allow the universe to replay itself.
  5. we could take another snapshot at the exact same time and compare the results.
If there would be a difference, then the free will assumption would be substantiated. Since all that is impossible, free will forever will remain a plausible assumption, nothing more.
But if you cannot see these things. It is very clear that you cannot see logic or reasoning by reading it and thus continuing this discussion is pointless.
Again, who forces you to participate?
 
That would be plausible if this world were static. But it is not. Sometimes it gets better, sometimes it gets worse. A good designer would not create something that fluctuates between extremes. He would create exactly whay he intends, and would allow no deviation from the “best” state of affairs.
What if the possession of free will is the best state of affairs for us even though the possibility of deviation is necessarily introduced with it?
 
I am confused. Where is the logical error?
Spock, your argument about multiple possible worlds, any of which could be effected by God, presupposes that the world is one uninterrupted causal chain which is actualized by God’s choice. (It couldn’t be actualized by one choice of God in the way you describe it, if it was not the one, singular, total effect of the divine and sufficient cause.) You obviously granted for the sake of the argument the premise that the world fore-known by and chosen by God can include free will (maybe you didn’t notice this about the conceptual construction of your argument? - do I really have to get specific in pointing this out to you?). James has just removed the ‘choice’ at the beginning, which again should make sense to you if you think about the fact that omniscience, ex hypothesi the kind of knowledge from which God’s choice is made, is not a deliberative kind of knowledge but knowledge in an eternal now. Since this choice is eternal, there is no other choice that it ever could have been. Your logical error is in equivocating between two kinds of knowledge, deliberative and omniscient/eternal. And I know you don’t believe in the latter, but that is irrelevant - you chose to use it in your argument when you started talking about God acting, you just forgot to think about the specific nature of divine activity (i.e., knowing and willing) and its distinction in kind from human activity.
 
It is the need for clarification. “Caused”, “influenced” and “determined” are not the same concepts. What do you mean my “caused”?

An example: if I am hungry, that hunger will cause (determine) an unpleasant feeling. What I am going to eat is influenced by the available foods, and my current disposition or preference. If I have free will, these are determining and influencing factors, but my actual choice is something up to me - my selection of food is not **caused **by these factors. Clarity is of utmost importance.
More clarity, yes please, then we’ll need fewer clarifications!

‘Caused’, ‘influenced’, and ‘determined’ are words, not concepts. Each word is used to indicate a family of concepts (/meanings/uses) and there is a lot of overlap between the concepts to which they refer.

Your statement about free will suggests that you think that an essentially free agent cannot be causally determined by outside factors. That is silly. Free will is never taken to be a globally operative absolute veto power over the agent’s choices and actions. It is a property of an individual that emerges as they develop a vocabulary that allows them the maturity to be responsible for their own actions followed by the realization that they are so responsible. This isn’t the magical transformation of the individual into an almighty veto power within his own domain, it is the natural, fallible process of maturation of the human person.
 
Spock, it is obvious that you are having trouble with reading and thinking, so let me see if I can make this a little simpler despite how obvious it is to some of us already.

You are confusing what “free-will” actually means. You are talking about “uncaused choice” or free from reality itself. This was never what “free-will” actually meant in any Scripture anywhere, but since you have it stuck in your head, we’ll take it from there.​

You begin your argument with the statement;

“1) Let’s start with a very simple world, where there is one moral agent, who makes one decision.”

In this case, the one “moral agent” must make a “moral decision”. A moral decision is NOT a “uncaused choice” (or what you are calling free-will). A moral decision is bound, that is what makes it moral and dependable.

So this first decision is un-free.

Then you state;

“… In that case there are two possible worlds,…”

Huh? No, where did you get 2 possible worlds already? You had one world with a moral agent who is bound in his will to be moral and thus not free to do anything but make the one moral decision. There is no “2 possible worlds”.

That was error #2 – (the first being the afore mentioned premise flaw)

“…and another one, where the agent makes an immoral choice.”

Again, this agent is already defined as a moral agent and thus cannot make this “immoral decision” you mention.

That was error #3

“…God can actualize either one of these worlds.”

Well, not really as pointed out in both the premise error that we are forgiving due to your apparent mental state, but also in that there was only one possibility even accepting your prior error.

That was error #4 – led to by error #3

“…Therefore there is one world with free will and no evil evil choices.”

No, it was not a world with free-will in your example because the agent was NOT free to be immoral.

That was error #5

All of that was just in your first step (1). But you go on;

“2) Now let’s consider a world, with one moral agent, who makes many decisions. Let the number of decisions be “N”. In this case there are “N + 1” possible worlds, where the agent makes exactly 0, 1, 2, etc… all the way up to N morally upright decisons.”

No. You contradict yourself. You say “a world” but then you say, “N+1 possible worlds”. ”. At most you have specified 2 worlds, each bound by morals behavior, not free-will.

That was error #6

“3) The next possible scenario is when there are “M” moral agents in the world, and each of them makes exactly one decision. In this case there are “M + 1” possible worlds…”

No, Again, you contradict yourself. You say “the world” and then you say, “M+1 possible worlds”.

That was error #7

“…In this world we also have free will, no coersion, and no immoral choices.”

No. You specified the one condition of “moral agents” and thus NO immoral choices and thus in this example there is NOT any other options and thus no free-will to do otherwise.

That was error #8

“4) The final possible scenario is where there are “N” moral agents, and each of them makes “M” decisons. Both “N” and “M” can be any arbitrary number, so this scenario precisely reflects our current world.”

No. You have stated that our current world is one in which ALL agents are moral. This is another false assertion or premise if you prefer.

That was error #9

“…Since each agent makes “M” decisions, the number of possible worlds is "(N + 1)(M + 1)".”*

No. You have specified only 4 worlds each with only morally bound, unfree, agents.

That was error #10

“Of these possible worlds there is one where each agent makes only moral decisions. In all the other ones at least one agent makes at least one immoral decision.”

No. In each of your specified worlds, every agent was moral and thus bound and NOT free to make any immoral decisions.

That was error #11

“God can also instantiate or actualize any one of these worlds, since none of them contains a logical contradiction.”

No. ALL of them contain logical contradictions.

That was error #12

“Result: No matter how many moral agents are in a world, and no matter how many decisions are made, there is at least one possible world where all the agents make only morally upright decisions - while retaining their free will.”

No. At no time were ANY of your proposed agents free. They were ALL bound by moral behavior.

That was error #13

“God can actualize this world since it contains no logical contradiction.”

No. This is just a repeat of error #13

That was error #14

“This is a mathematical proof.”

No. It had nothing to do with mathematics other than you mentioning some variables, a plus sign, and a “1”. No mathematics was involved. It was merely a very poor attempt at a “logical argument” that used some variables and a plus sign.

That was error #15

“It shows that the existence of free will does not logically lead to immoral decisions”

No. It said NOTHING about free-will choices as each and every of your agents were moral and thus bound and not free.

That was error #16

Spock, you didn’t even have 16 sentences. This is why I dislike evaluating proposed logical arguments by those who can’t even get their premises right.

You proved nothing but how little you think before you presume and quickly frustrate yourself while blaming others.
 
Spock, it is obvious that you are having trouble with reading and thinking, so let me see if I can make this a little simpler despite how obvious it is to some of us already.

You are confusing what “free-will” actually means. You are talking about “uncaused choice” or free from reality itself. This was never what “free-will” actually meant in any Scripture anywhere, but since you have it stuck in your head, we’ll take it from there.
I am simply not interesting to read your condescending posts. But, for one last time, I am going to reply.

The concept of libertarian free will consists of two parts:

The LCC: locus of causal control. This means that the person is the final causative agent, his decisions may be influenced by internal and external factors, but these factors do not determine the decision.

The PAP: the principle of alternate possibilities. This means that there must be at least two valid options to choose from and the agent is free to choose either one of them. Some philosophers do not agree with this stipulation, but it is quite easy to refute their arguments.

This is all I am going to tell you. During this thread we have rehashed the concept of free will and this is the conclusion we all found proper and reasonable. If you are interested, you can read all the 25-some pages and see for yourself. If you ever get off your “high horse”, I will read what you have to say and if it merits a reply, I am going to reply. By the way, I am not interested in any “scriptures” either. This is supposed to be a philosophical discussion, with as few theological parts as possible. We are discussion Plantinga’s “free will defense” and nothing more.

The rest of your post is so loaded with errors, that I am not going to waste any more time of pointing them out.
 
Yes, it certainly must seem a bit condescending when someone has to point out that you seem to not be able to make a single proposed logical statement (not “sentence” as I had posted, apologies) without making at least one error within.

Many pointed out each of the errors that I pointed out. Your blindness is merely from the desire in your own heart to be the “right one” (an ego issue). You are compelled to ignore what does not support your desire and attack anything that erodes your desire.

And then to continue;

Your LCC statement is a false statement even though is did not involve free-will.

Your PAP statements use the word “free”, but do doubt, you assume that “free” means 100% freedom from all reality, which it does NOT mean, nor ever has except in the minds of those who desire it to be wrong and those who wish to distract from the very idea of being free at all.

“that I am not going to waste any more time of pointing them out”

Yes, certainly don’t “waste” your precious time (or bring focus on what proves your error).
 
The LCC: locus of causal control. This means that the person is the final causative agent, his decisions may be influenced by internal and external factors, but these factors do not determine the decision.
Every weekday morning I have a choice of turning right or left when I come to a major highway in town. If I turn left then I will get to work via the optimal route. If I turn right then I will go in the opposite direction. The right turn is always an option I am free to make, and I would get there eventually by taking different side streets and a much longer route, but in the 7 years I’ve been employed by this company I have NEVER gone right at that intersection while on the way to work.

The external factor of me needing to get to work is instrumental in deciding which direction I should turn in the morning. That decision has been made over 1500 times so far and it’s been left every time regardless of circumstances. Weather, known accident, known construction delay, need to gas up… all irrelevant. My choice of side streets after exiting the highway isn’t always the same depending on stops I may need to make, but that turn onto the highway is.

In what possible world would I ever choose to turn right at that highway on the way to work? It’s simply not a choice I will ever make given the external factors of where I live, where I work, traffic at that time of day, and optimal route. Turning right would be silly.
 
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