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PRmerger
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If they are not dividing, then why are you not permitted to come to Our Table?
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Jon_S_1
Guest
Unfortunately, by definition a division is dividing.
This isn’t like saying this group likes Latin and that one English. These are fundamental differences that Luther had no authority to create.
Discussion was to take place within the church not outside the church.
That said,
If Lutherans can erase a lot if wayward theology accumulated over 500 years and return to Luther’s original beef…their is nothing left to settle as I don’t see the Catholic Church today as something Luther would protest.
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
Agree entirely that Luther would never leave today’s Roman Catholic Church and why, to consternation of many Lutherans, when reminded of how many former Lutheran theologians are not Catholic priests.
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Jon_S_1
Guest
Have you wondered if the merits of Luther’s ideas have already been assimilated into the Catholic Church?
My opinion is yes. The changes that have occurred are a result of the reformation.
The problems lie in the ways Protestants have removed the Sacred a Tradition , and created thousands of opinions on the Bible which is the consequence of removal of Sacred Tradition.
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
Yes, it is hard for Lutherans to justify being separate from the Catholic Church of today and why we pray for Francis. Sombering reality for Lutherans is that the Dialogue means acceptance of the papacy.
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PRmerger
Guest
Yes, indeed. It would mean acceptance of a lot of things Lutherans reject at the moment. And rejection of a few things Lutherans accept at the moment.
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
The Dialogue/ Declaration process was starting where Catholics/ Lutherans agree on all facets of the Church. Realizing, in astonishment that the disagreements can be lived with. Two-edge sword for both Lutherans and Catholics.
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
sorry for mistake
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FrDavid96
Guest
When we read the entire paragraph, we can see that:
- Catholics and Lutherans have different definitions of “church.”
- Even though we have different definitions of what it means, we both say the words “one holy catholic and apostolic church”
- The fact that we both say it, but mean different things by what we say, is a reason for further dialogue, because…
- In spite of differences, the common words are something that do indeed unite us.
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
I posted this Lutheran Mass a few weeks ago: youtube.com/watch?v=3P6JL9Y7M3o
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FrDavid96
Guest
They are indeed dividing differences because the very definition of “church” is one on which we disagree.
The Lutheran perspective is “we are still one church but we disagree on the particular definition of church” (I hope that’s a fair and true statement, since I don’t speak on their behalf)
The Catholic perspective is “the Church is not formed of both Lutherans and Catholics, but we are still united in many other ways” and further “Lutherans are outside the visible Church, but still united to that Church in many very important ways”
From the Catholic viewpoint, the very meaning of “Church” itself is an article of faith, and something on which we cannot compromise.
Lutherans might be able to say “we can still be one church, even if we disagree on the definition of the word church” (I say “might” because, again, I don’t pretend to speak on their behalf)
On the other hand…
Catholics must say “we cannot be one church if we disagree on the meaning of the word”
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
The brilliant Pope Benedict embraced Lutherans with real hope for intercommunion. We follow the blessed Francis now.
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FrDavid96
Guest
Yes. So let us listen to the words of HH Francis as he quotes the 2nd Vatican Council
Commitment to ecumenism responds to the prayer of the Lord Jesus that “they may all be one” (Jn 17:21). The credibility of the Christian message would be much greater if Christians could overcome their divisions and the Church could realize “the fullness of catholicity proper to her in those of her children who, though joined to her by baptism, are yet separated from full communion with her”
Evangelii Gaudium #244
vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium_en.html#_ftn192
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
We are in good hands
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
Some Swedish priests entered the Society of St. Pius X so they are considered very conservative Lutherans. But SSPX isn’t quite Catholic 
youtube.com/watch?v=av1uKMJ8X9w
youtube.com/watch?v=av1uKMJ8X9w
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FrDavid96
Guest
This is an issue that simply must be addressed (from the Catholic side here).
Yes, Benedict embraced Lutherans. Yes, with real hope.
Not, however, with hope for intercommunion.
This is one of the very differences that separates us as Lutherans and Catholics.
The very idea of intercommunion is completely unacceptable to catholics. In order to have inter-communion, we must necessarily have 2 or more different communions (in the sense of communities, or churches). This very idea is anathema to us. It’s like the old joke that goes “how can Hawaii have interstate highways?” From the Catholic perspective, intercommunion is simply impossible. A truly interstate highway is possible, though very unlikely, for Hawaii; but for Catholics, intercommunion can simply never happen. It’s not about building a bridge long enough–it’s about the fact that, for Catholics, the very need for that bridge is unacceptable.
Catholics are not seeking inter-communion, but intra-communion.
If I attend a Ruthenian Catholic Divine Liturgy, I would never dare call what I do “inter-communion” because that would be insulting to both of us. Instead, I would say that we have “communion” with the Ruthenians. Period.
To Catholics, communion (community) and Communion (Eucharist) are one and the same. We cannot have one without the other.
On the other hand, I often hear from the Lutheran perspective about a desire for inter-communion. My concern here is that Lutherans often do not understand the Catholic definition of ecumenism. For Catholics, the goal of ecumenism is not inter-communion, but communion in one Church.
Now, I am not writing this to be abrasive here. I am writing it because the point is so essential to catholic theology.
As a Catholic, I do not want, nor do I seek, nor would I accept intercommunion with Lutherans…
…Instead, what Catholics want is an end to the divisions that allow us to have such a word as “inter-communion” in the first place.
Anyway, signing-off here. Playoffs today.
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EvangelCatholic
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JamesTheJust
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EC, bot Catholics and Lutherans believe that Christ is present in a validly consecrated Eucharist; however, Catholics believe that Lutherans lack valid consecration.
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
How could Christ be present in an invalid consecration?
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JamesTheJust
Guest
It doesn’t, which is why we believe that Christ is not present in the Eucharist of a Lutheran service. The quote you presented simply affirms that we share a belief in the Real Presence. On where that Presence exists, we disagree.
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