One in two young Germans don't know 'Holocaust'

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vern humphrey:
The total deaths during WWII will never be fully known. In general, there were about 12 million documented deaths in the camps and related activities – which is usually what is meant when the work “Holocaust” is used.

There are many other crimes – if one were starting out to get a PhD in history, I’d recommend becoming a specialist in Japanese atrocities in China – it’s a completely ignored field.
I’m wondering where you got the 12 million figure. The long accepted figure was 6 million, and that was based on the soviet estimate of 4 million deaths in Auschwitz, which was reflected on the plaque at the camp museum. The plaque now states that 1.4 million were killed because census data on the number of Jewish people in Europe before and after the war made the 4 million number impossible. Not that 1.4 million isn’t a lot of people…just stating what the recent accepted figure is. Are you also including army fighters, German citizens, and such? Thanks…
 
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MooCowSteph:
I’m wondering where you got the 12 million figure. The long accepted figure was 6 million, and that was based on the soviet estimate of 4 million deaths in Auschwitz, which was reflected on the plaque at the camp museum. The plaque now states that 1.4 million were killed because census data on the number of Jewish people in Europe before and after the war made the 4 million number impossible. Not that 1.4 million isn’t a lot of people…just stating what the recent accepted figure is. Are you also including army fighters, German citizens, and such? Thanks…
The long accepted figure is 12 million. The 6 million is a recent interpretation, which counts Jews only.

This table is from The Holocaust Chronicle
**Total Deaths from Nazi Genocidal Policies
**
Group

Deaths


European Jews

5,600,000 to 6,250,000

Soviet prisoners of war

3,000,000

Polish Catholics

3,000,000

Serbians

700,000 (Croat Ustasa persecution)

Roma, Sinti, and Lalleri

222,000 to 250,000

Germans (political, religious, and Resistance)

80,000

Germans (handicapped)

70,000

Homosexuals

12,000

Jehovah’s Witnesses

2500
 
gilliam said:
One in two young Germans don’t know 'Holocaust’

Only one in two Germans below the age of 24 know that the term ‘Holocaust’ is used to describe the mass murder of Jews by the Nazi regime, the daily newspaper Die Welt reported on Saturday.

As usual with your posts, Gilliam, what is your point???

How many Americans consider the vaporization of Hiroshoma and Nakisoki a war crime???

Do we need your special brand of neo-con reeducation too???
 
liberal friend:
As usual with your posts, Gilliam, what is your point???

How many Americans consider the vaporization of Hiroshoma and Nakisoki a war crime???

Do we need your special brand of neo-con reeducation too???
Did we wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?
 
vern humphrey:
I think you need to get a little deeper into history.

Prior to the 20th Century, the greatest crime was Ceasar’s Gallic War, …The great slaughter in Russia was the Collectivization Famine – …The genocide against the Armenians during WWI … The Killintg Fields of Cambodia …
While those were terrible events those perpetrators where all amateurs compared to Genghis Khan and his immediate successors

China alone lost 40 million between 1275 and 1300

The effect on central Asia, the mid east and Eastern Europe were equally bad.

Some of those areas didn’t recover for centuries…if ever
 
Steve Andersen:
While those were terrible events those perpetrators where all amateurs compared to Genghis Khan and his immediate successors

China alone lost 40 million between 1275 and 1300

The effect on central Asia, the mid east and Eastern Europe were equally bad.

Some of those areas didn’t recover for centuries…if ever
Man, I love the Khan’s. Ghenghis Kahn is one of my favorite generals to read about.
 
vern humphrey:
When I taught at college level, the texts for the basic American History course were broken down into 20 year blocks. Each block divided into women, minorities, social and economic activities. Reading those texts, you’d barely know there was a Revolution or Civil War.
That’s one of the things that ticked me off about my American History classes in college: very little about the Revolutionary War, War of 1812, Mexican-American War, and the Civil War. When I asked my professor about it, he simply said most college students had enough of a background in those events from high school and issues on women and social issues were more important. Go figure.
 
The long accepted figure is 12 million. The 6 million is a recent interpretation, which counts Jews only.

This table is from The Holocaust Chronicle…
I have been studying WWII in general, and the European theater of operations in particular for over 30 years. I never heard the 12 million number either, but that of course does not mean it is incorrect, although I do not know how reliable your source is since they are a publishing house and not historians or researchers. The 6 million number is by no means new. It has been the claimed and “accepted” number ever since the late 40’s. Amazingly enough, the same claim was made after WWI but the 6 million was attributed to collateral damage and related starvation then. As far as their numbers go, I will break down what I have found in my research that is a little different:

European Jews - 5,600,000 to 6,250,000
This number is based on (as someone else said) the now discredited Soviet claim of 4 million deaths at Auschwitz. The Auschwitz museum curator verifed in a film by a Jewish man who’s name escapes me right now that no more than 1.4 million died there and that further reductions in that number were possible, if not likely.These ammendments resulted from both census information and from research that showed that it was technically impossible for the Germans to kill and dispose of that many people, with the facilities they supposedly had, in the allowed time. It was determined that six million would have taken decades, not less than two years which is the time period that the camp was in use. As someone else stated, the plaque at Auschwitz has been ammended from 4 million to 1.4 million, I have seen pictures of both plaques. An interesting side note is that the official report of the commander of the liberating army to Stalin put the total number of deaths at just over 150,000.

Soviet prisoners of war - 3,000,000
This number has always been in question because of the notorious unreliability of Soviet information. They may have been among the millions of Soviet soldiers killed by Stalin, if that many were missing at all.

Polish Catholics - 3,000,000
I have never heard any claim like this. I haven’t been able to find any reliable, verifiable claims of large numbers of Catholics murdered by the Germans. The Soviets, and more recently the Chinese, yes. In fact, the Germans were not anti-religion as has always been claimed. I found a translation of the “25 Point Program” of the Nazi party, which was their early blueprint for Germany, written by Hitler and Anton Drexler in 1920. Point 24 states in part “The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination.” (If they had they would have alienated half of the country which was essentially half Catholic and half Lutheran). The only oppression of Catholics I have found was related to those who were thought (rightly or not) to be involved in opposition activities and not simply because they were Catholic.

I do not mean to belittle the huge numbers killed or excuse the atrocities commited, I just like to rely on the best, most recent documentation available. I have seen different numbers for some of the other numbers listed as well, but none that I feel are sufficiently documented. I doubt that we can ever know how many people were lost in a war of such massive proportions but new information turns up fairly often and we must be open to it.

**Total Deaths from Nazi Genocidal **
 
When I taught at college level, the texts for the basic American History course were broken down into 20 year blocks. Each block divided into women, minorities, social and economic activities. Reading those texts, you’d barely know there was a Revolution or Civil War.
That is sad and frightening. I used to own a business where most of my employees were in or just out of High School. Their knowledge of American History was absolutely non-existant. One of them brought me the guidelines for her senior year final project in American History. They had to do a paper on an important figure from American history. They could not choose somone on their own, they had to choose from a list. The list had no white people on it and very few men. No Washington, Jefferson, Adams, or Franklin. She told me that this reflected her teacher’s bias which she made no effort to hide. Another employee, hearing on the radio that it was the anniversary of Pearl Harbor, asked me what and where that was. He was in his early 20’s at the time.
 
There are many other crimes – if one were starting out to get a PhD in history, I’d recommend becoming a specialist in Japanese atrocities in China – it’s a completely ignored field.
That’s because those of us who have done some research on the Japanese attrocities develop an extreme urge to drill holes in our heads and pour peroxide and bleach into our brains.

Some perspective for those who don’t know much, dedicated Nazis were intervening in China and trying to stop the Japanese because they were so disturbed by what they were seeing. Much of the Holocaust is frightening because of how impersonal and almost mechanical it was; the Japanese attrocities are the exact opposite. The Japanese in China were cruel, in-your-face, and monsterous. I would mention just some of the things they were notorious for, but honestly I think it would make a number of people here physically sick.

Personally I think these things have been down-played for so long because full revelation would absolutely devastate the new culture and identity that the Allies were trying to build in Japan after the war.
 
Asian Catholic:
Why should only one people get to use the title “The Holocaust”? .
Because they won the war, they have the power and they have a religious cullture that justifies the use of that power. Or so they believe.

Not very nice, is it?

Perhaps thing could be worse. History is grim all round.😦
 
This is kinda related, so I’ll post this here:

story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=518&ncid=732&e=1&u=/ap/20050426/ap_on_re_eu/mauthausen_tool_shed

An Austrian housewares company was initially naming one of their sheds the “Mauthausen”. Some in the company, at least, knew the implications of the name:
One critic, Gerold Gruber, said a young man at the information desk of a bauMax branch in Salzburg grinned and said “that’s our gas house,” when asked about the item.
Man. I just can’t imagine being so ignorant – or uncaring-- about history.
 
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