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StTommyMore
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Absolutely not. Pro gay marriage, pro abortion, pro cloning, pro stem embryonic cell research. These are objective evils. You cannot vote for evil without participating in the sin.
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estesbob
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No-its right to the point. You see the exact same argument being used in threads where Catholics try and justify supporting homosexual marriage and female ordination.
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Elizabeth502
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Except that the person who made the above claim is the VP of Moral Theology for Catholic Answers. I’ll take his professional opinion over all the amateurs on CAF.
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estesbob
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You don’t need my interpretation of the article. Here’s what the archbishop says clearly and succinctly:
To suggest - as some Catholics do - that Senator Obama is this year’s ‘‘real’’ prolife candidate requires a peculiar kind of self-hypnosis, or moral confusion, or worse. To portray the 2008 Democratic Party presidential ticket as the preferred ‘‘prolife’’ option is to subvert what the word ‘‘prolife’’ means. Anyone interested in Senator Obama’s record on abortion and related issues should simply read Prof. Robert P. George’s Public Discourse essay from earlier this week,* ‘‘Obama’s Abortion Extremism,’’ and his follow-up article, ‘‘Obama and Infanticide.’’ They say everything that needs to be said.***
I do not tell anybody can possibly see any ambiguity in that.
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StTommyMore
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Ok, so what POSSIBLY could be a proportional issue with abortion. I mean, seriously. Abortion is an intrinsic moral evil (that means it can never be justified). Lets hear them. WHat are the proportionate issues. No dodging. You owe us a straight answer.
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estesbob
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We already had one person tell us that doubling taxes on Farms is a proportionate reason. You really won’t get a specific answer to this- just a lot of mumbo-jumbo about following your conscience and the church doesn’t have any real rules, just suggestions
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Newbie2
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I agree with the bolded part, and partially agree with the unbolded part.
OK, you accused me of rationalizing the support of evil. I have not done that. Please either put up or clam up. Show me where I’ve done that. I’ve never said it was a good thing to have voted for Obama.
We can have legitimate or even impassioned disagreement without you accusing me of something that I’ve never done.
I agree, Bob, but he never said it was a sin to vote for Obama. And he also said, and I quote again, “…it’s your task as Catholics and citizens to listen, evaluate and then act as you judge best.”
"As you judge best." He isn’t telling anyone not to vote for Obama. Sure, he’s implicitly suggesting not to do so. He made it very clear that his talk was his personal opinion, so he could have done so.
I owe you nothing.
I’m not dodging.
You’ve tagged me as defending a particular position which I do not hold.
Did you actually READ my posts?? Or are you knee-jerking to what you THINK I said?
I don’t know how or why one could rationalize voting for Obama for a number of reasons. I said that several posts ago. Apparently you missed that.
I can’t get in another person’s mind and evaluate their conscience, like you and Bob apparently can. I’m just not that talented.
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StTommyMore
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Anyone who says that there were proportionate reasons needs to defend that statement by providing said reasons. Failure to do so proves the emptiness of your position.I agree with the bolded part, and partially agree with the unbolded part.
OK, you accused me of rationalizing the support of evil. I have not done that. Please either put up or clam up. Show me where I’ve done that. I’ve never said it was a good thing to have voted for Obama.
We can have legitimate or even impassioned disagreement without you accusing me of something that I’ve never done.
I agree, Bob, but he never said it was a sin to vote for Obama. And he also said, and I quote again, “…it’s your task as Catholics and citizens to listen, evaluate and then act as you judge best.”
"As you judge best." He isn’t telling anyone not to vote for Obama. Sure, he’s implicitly suggesting not to do so. He made it very clear that his talk was his personal opinion, so he could have done so.
I owe you nothing.
I’m not dodging.
You’ve tagged me as defending a particular position which I do not hold.
Did you actually READ my posts?? Or are you knee-jerking to what you THINK I said?
I don’t know how or why one could rationalize voting for Obama for a number of reasons. I said that several posts ago. Apparently you missed that.
I can’t get in another person’s mind and evaluate their conscience, like you and Bob apparently can. I’m just not that talented.
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Newbie2
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I agree. But I never said that or implied that.
Please READ MY POSTS before you make such empy accusations.
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Newbie2
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Oops…didn’t get back in time to do an edit to my last post.
Empy, Empty, Whatever.
My bad on the typo.
At this point, I’ll agree to disagree on what we’ve been discussing. I think at this point we aren’t going to convince each other of the merits of our respective arguments.
But please, I’d ask that you don’t ever accuse me of rationalizing or supporting evil. I didn’t, don’t and wouldn’t ever support candidates who do.
Empy, Empty, Whatever.
My bad on the typo.At this point, I’ll agree to disagree on what we’ve been discussing. I think at this point we aren’t going to convince each other of the merits of our respective arguments.
But please, I’d ask that you don’t ever accuse me of rationalizing or supporting evil. I didn’t, don’t and wouldn’t ever support candidates who do.
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StTommyMore
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A vote for Obama was a vote for death. If you voted for him you supported evil.
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Newbie2
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Seems neither of us did.
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Christopher68
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I will preface my comments by saving that I didn’t vote for either Obama or McCain in the last election and am not a member of either major political party. It seems there are some on this forum who believe that a vote for Obama is a vote ‘for’ abortion. There are myriad reasons that I have heard why voters supported Obama over McCain, and rarely if ever was ‘pro-choice’ ever mentioned as a reason. Yet there are those who are quick to condemn a voter as supporting ‘evil’ if they didn’t vote in lock-step with the republican party even though they almost brought the US economy to a grinding halt and initiated a failed foreign policy that cost our country many billions of dollars and resulted in many prematurely deceased men and women servicemembers. That reasoning is utter nonsense.
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StTommyMore
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It does not matter why someone voted for Obama, but a vote for him was a vote for abortion, whether that was the intent or not
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estesbob
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A course of vote for Obama was a vote for abortion. I don’t know why will Obama apologists deny this when Obama himself makes no secret of it,
If you voted for Obama you are complicit in the death of 1.4 million children a year. It has nothing to do with voting lockstep with the Republican Party-has everything to do with respecting life.
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estesbob
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And if a Catholic did this and it was not their intent it is due to willful ignorance of the teachings of the Church
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SalesianSDB
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I was “recruited” into the Republican Party when I was in 2nd grade. It was during the 2000 election and my grandfather told me the difference between the two parties the only difference that mattered to him): Republicans are pro-life, democrats are pro-choice. So I became a young Republican at the age of 8.
In comes high school and all I pretty much know about Republicans is “pro-war, pro-life”, and I only cared about the pro-life aspect. So I was a one issue person. Then I started researching libertarianism. I fell in love with the ideals of libertarianism, which is (at its most basic level) that you may pursue your goals as you wish as long as you do no harm to another. Sadly, the Libertarian Party is mostly pro-choice, which I don’t understand because you are bringing about harm to the child. Luckily, there are some in the Republican party that are libertarians and pro-life (Ron Paul, Palin is becoming more libertarian I’ve noticed). I admire Sen. Barry Goldwater and his ideas, but sadly he is pro-choice (I always say that I disagree with Goldwater on two issues only, abortion and civil rights).
But lately, I have been moving away from “pro-life” as my only issue and main issue to having economics be my main issue. I’ve recently discovered the libertarian economist Milton Friedman who is the most pro-free market person I’ve ever seen. Even when he speaks on issues I disagree with him, he makes such a great argument that I have to agree with him. Here are some great Friedman moments: youtube.com/watch?v=-_gU50mfehI youtube.com/watch?v=VHFIbfUi5rw
So now with economics as my main issue. Luckily, no Democrat is in favor of a total free market. So when it comes time for me to vote (I’m voting for the first time this year) I want a candidate that is free market, but he/she must also be pro-life. If not, “NEXT!”
Oh, and I won’t vote for someone who wants to repeal birth right citizenship.
In comes high school and all I pretty much know about Republicans is “pro-war, pro-life”, and I only cared about the pro-life aspect. So I was a one issue person. Then I started researching libertarianism. I fell in love with the ideals of libertarianism, which is (at its most basic level) that you may pursue your goals as you wish as long as you do no harm to another. Sadly, the Libertarian Party is mostly pro-choice, which I don’t understand because you are bringing about harm to the child. Luckily, there are some in the Republican party that are libertarians and pro-life (Ron Paul, Palin is becoming more libertarian I’ve noticed). I admire Sen. Barry Goldwater and his ideas, but sadly he is pro-choice (I always say that I disagree with Goldwater on two issues only, abortion and civil rights).
But lately, I have been moving away from “pro-life” as my only issue and main issue to having economics be my main issue. I’ve recently discovered the libertarian economist Milton Friedman who is the most pro-free market person I’ve ever seen. Even when he speaks on issues I disagree with him, he makes such a great argument that I have to agree with him. Here are some great Friedman moments: youtube.com/watch?v=-_gU50mfehI youtube.com/watch?v=VHFIbfUi5rw
So now with economics as my main issue. Luckily, no Democrat is in favor of a total free market. So when it comes time for me to vote (I’m voting for the first time this year) I want a candidate that is free market, but he/she must also be pro-life. If not, “NEXT!”
Oh, and I won’t vote for someone who wants to repeal birth right citizenship.
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Christopher68
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Two points:
(1) I am not an Obama apologist. As mentioned, I did not vote for him.
(2) By your own logic, you are complicit in a near depression and perhaps the worst foreign policy decisions in the country’s history. Why did you do this?
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estesbob
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Two points:Two points:
(1) I am not an Obama apologist. As mentioned, I did not vote for him.
(2) **By your own logic, you are complicit in a near depression and perhaps the worst foreign policy decisions in the country’s history. Why did you do this? **
- None these rise anywhere near the seriousness of abortion
- Since Obama took over we got abortion,and a bankrupt foreign policy coupled with a deepening recessing and rising debt and unemployemt. Those who vote for Mccain are looking better every day.
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StTommyMore
Guest
To place economics (read:greed) above life is nothing short of morally bankrupt.
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