One Mad Mom vs Game of Thrones

[edwest2]

Strange you should say that. One does not give a football to any passer-by and then tell them to show up and play in the next NFL game. What I do is not just a job. Knowing what works and why matters. People can like what they want but good stories are seamless. That’s why I told one of our writers that his story crossed the line from very good to “I was pulled into that world.” Suddenly, I was someplace else.

Ed

 

[twf]

All of the other comments are subjective as well, but I’m familiar with storytelling and minus the sex scenes and partial or mostly nudity, I’d rate this show as mediocre. Again, if they just cut out all the bad stuff. I’m not judging anyone.

And I’ve read absurdly complex done very well. The company I work for would not still be around if the writers could not deliver. And Lord of the Rings? I know people who have read the series 12 or more times, dissecting it in minute detail and so on. Nine Princes in Amber - the list goes on.

Ed

As a Catholic and a fantasy buff of course I must rank Lord of the Rings above Game of Thrones. It would be blasphemy, heresy and apostasy to say otherwise… but I do think people are far too harsh with A Song of Ice and Fire. There are plenty of cheap sexy fantasies that don’t do nearly as well. There’s something to it.

 

[StudentMI]

Strange you should say that. One does not give a football to any passer-by and then tell them to show up and play in the next NFL game. What I do is not just a job. Knowing what works and why matters. People can like what they want but good stories are seamless. That’s why I told one of our writers that his story crossed the line from very good to “I was pulled into that world.” Suddenly, I was someplace else.

Ed

Which is still subjective. How does one compare Pynchon to Patchen to Waugh to Beckett etc? What is ‘seamless’ to one may be ‘cliched’ to another. Requiring all fiction to be like Dickens would mean Joyce, Krasznahorkai, Melville and Ballard are worthless.

 

[Padres1969]

How does Pornhub’s traffic do on Doctor Who premiere nights?

Probably pretty good these days. Doctor Who’s ratings are down after years of Moffat. Thankfully he’s moving on. And at least Capaldi got some decent material to work with out of his final year.

 

[bear06]

Some don’t seem to get the point if the Mad Mom post. First, there is a difference between nudity and a simulation of sex, rape, etc. Next, pointing out the length of time and how many episodes it’s in doesn’t mitigate the fact that it’s still pornographic series.

 

[Padres1969]

Some don’t seem to get the point if the Mad Mom post. First, there is a difference between nudity and a simulation of sex, rape, etc. Next, pointing out the length of time and how many episodes it’s in doesn’t mitigate the fact that it’s still pornographic series.

Well the nudity and simulated sex/rape, isn’t done for the sake of being done in any given episode on the rare occasions they happen. They’re done for dramatic effect of showing just how perverse, depraved, etc… a certain situation or character is. This was done early on with all three Lannister siblings for example or the Dothraki Khal. And as has been mentioned, as the show has progressed, the amount of time spent on such things has lessened to once or twice a season. For example the most recent was in last night’s episode, but it was the culmination of 4 season’s worth of character development between a man and woman who’d come to deeply love one another and who are dedicated completely to one another (in fact I’d listen to Greyworm’s speech before he and Missandei make love, it’s incredibly touching).

 

[ATraveller]

I don’t think a simple correlation is the best way of proving Game of Thrones is pornographic. I haven’t watched it nor do I intend to as I’m boycotting much of the film and TV industry.

Whenever Game of Thrones is mentioned I now automatically recall what the evangelical pastor John Piper said about the show, which was to paraphrase, every time a Christian who watches the show, that Christian was essentially re-crucifying Jesus. It’s seared into my mind.

 

[bear06]

LOL! You just made the exact same arguments again, Padres and they don’t hold water. People are going to talk themselves into whatever. I agree with the author’s critique. No matter how brief or how it’s trying to add to the dimension of the story, it’s porn. To those who think it’s not, good luck with that.

 

[StudentMI]

LOL! You just made the exact same arguments again, Padres and they don’t hold water. People are going to talk themselves into whatever. I agree with the author’s critique. No matter how brief or how it’s trying to add to the dimension of the story, it’s porn. To those who think it’s not, good luck with that.

I’ll trust my priest over you, my friend. I asked him if the series was pornographic, both books and TV series. He told me, after I described it, that they were not. And as a Catholic, I trust priests over random laity.

God bless.

 

[Padres1969]

LOL! You just made the exact same arguments again, Padres and they don’t hold water. People are going to talk themselves into whatever. I agree with the author’s critique. No matter how brief or how it’s trying to add to the dimension of the story, it’s porn. To those who think it’s not, good luck with that.

So to your mind “nudity=porn”

That’s a pretty narrow view you have there, and not one that reflects reality. Next you’re going to tell us Michaelagelo’s David is porn right?

 

[NonTimendum]

So to your mind “nudity=porn”

That’s a pretty narrow view you have there, and not one that reflects reality. Next you’re going to tell us Michaelagelo’s David is porn right?

Not all nudity is porn, but almost all porn includes nudity.

Game of Thrones is not necessarily porn, but it contains a lot of porn. The books and the show. The last episode had a five-minute sex scene complete with sodomy and cheesy backstory. If you took a clip of that scene to a priest and asked him if it was porn, he would say yes. If you watched that scene on your computer at work they would probably discipline you for watching porn. I promise you that scene is on all the major porn sites right now. It is inarguable that it constituted pornography. It contained all the essential elements of pornography. That it was couched within the wider context of a story and was simulated is irrelevant. Most soft-core porns contain wider story-lines and are largely simulated.

We should not watch people engage in mortally sinful acts for money. The actor and actress were literally killing their own souls in that scene. If they do not receive absolution then they will very likely go to Hell for engaging in that scene. Does every nude scene in a movie constitute porn? Probably not. Does every sex scene in a movie constitute porn? Closer to the truth, but again there might be some mitigating circumstances. Did that particular scene (and plenty of others in GoT) constitute porn? Inarguably.

 

[Padres1969]

Not all nudity is porn, but almost all porn includes nudity.

Game of Thrones is not necessarily porn, but it contains a lot of porn. The books and the show. The last episode had a five-minute sex scene complete with sodomy and cheesy backstory. If you took a clip of that scene to a priest and asked him if it was porn, he would say yes. If you watched that scene on your computer at work they would probably discipline you for watching porn. I promise you that scene is on all the major porn sites right now. It is inarguable that it constituted pornography. It contained all the essential elements of pornography. That it was couched within the wider context of a story and was simulated is irrelevant. Most soft-core porns contain wider story-lines and are largely simulated.

We should not watch people engage in mortally sinful acts for money. The actor and actress were literally killing their own souls in that scene. If they do not receive absolution then they will very likely go to Hell for engaging in that scene. Does every nude scene in a movie constitute porn? Probably not. Does every sex scene in a movie constitute porn? Closer to the truth, but again there might be some mitigating circumstances. Did that particular scene (and plenty of others in GoT) constitute porn? Inarguably.

Actually whether it would be considered Sodomy is up for debate. They’re not Christians, they may be married by the definition of their culture, and he is physically lacking the male components to engage in vaginal sex.

 

[NonTimendum]

Actually whether it would be considered Sodomy is up for debate. They’re not Christians, they may be married by the definition of their culture, and he is physically lacking the male components to engage in vaginal sex.

Sodomy is sodomy no matter who does it.

Catholic understanding of marriage requires the ability to consummate the marriage (it does not require consummation, but it does require the ability). By being a eunuch he would be incapable of marrying.

My understanding of sodomy would include what he was doing to her. Perhaps others would disagree, maybe there is room for debate over that. Regardless it would still be sinful and most importantly of all:

It is still porn.

 

[bear06]

Padres, try reading again. Game of Thrones and Michelangelo have nothing in common. Art and porn have nothing in common. Apparently you have trouble differentiating between the two. Nudity and explicit sex, simulated or not,are two very different things no matter how you like to spin it. How common, brief, etc. it is in Game of Thrones is also not a determining factor.

 

[Otar_Mendes]

The date on the calendar does not change things. Only people change things. We should always promote virtue. Game of Thrones is porn.

By this “logic” the Bible (and numerous other works) is porn too.Just read it and see for yourself. And not only porn but a really disturbing snuff (cutting babies from women’s wombs coz their tribes didn’t want to worship Judeo-Christian god etc etc)

 

[Joe_5859]

I see a lot of poor arguments on all sides here.

The article in the OP brought up some good points, but didn’t always articulate things in the best way. And some of her points (like the one quoted in the OP about the drop in traffic to the pornhub website) doesn’t prove that Game of Thrones is porn, only (maybe) that it appeals to the same audience. She definitely was reaching with such comments.

As Catholics, I think it would be useful to look at how the Catechism defines pornography:

2354 Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.

This definition is, at the same time, more narrow than viewing pornography as equivalent to nudity, but also broader than simply what appears on a website like “pornhub”. Note that even “simulated” acts qualify. The actors and actresses may just be pretending to have sex rather than actually having sex.

I have not seen Game of Thrones, but I would ask those who have to ask themselves: Does the show contain “real or simulated sexual acts” that are removed “from the intimacy of the partners in order to display them deliberately to third parties”? From the descriptions I have heard, it sounds like it.

Now, I can see why some might balk at just calling the show “porn” with no caveats or qualifications. But simply because a show does not include x% of pornographic scenes in every episode does not prove that the show never veers into the realm of pornography. It’s not an either/or proposition of either the show is 100% porn or it is 0% porn.

What I always kind of scratch my head about is when people defend explicit sex scenes as somehow integral to the story line. I don’t buy that. There are other ways to show that this character is depraved or that character really loves this other character. You don’t need full nudity with simulated sexual acts to show those things. Those scenes are included because it is titillating to the audience and because they can include them since they’re on HBO. I think that we would delude ourselves to think otherwise.

So, while I don’t find it useful or necessary to point fingers at people and yell “You watch porn!”, I think we owe it to ourselves to really ask ourselves (and ask the Lord) whether the manner in which we choose to recreate is re-creating us into a person who is closer to Christ or further away. And that goes for myself and for all forms of entertainment we engage in (not just this one TV show).

 

[edwest2]

By this “logic” the Bible (and numerous other works) is porn too.Just read it and see for yourself. And not only porn but a really disturbing snuff (cutting babies from women’s wombs coz their tribes didn’t want to worship Judeo-Christian god etc etc)

That is simply false reasoning. Recording events in words does not equal seeing them acted out.

Ed

 

[Joe_5859]

That is simply false reasoning. Recording events in words does not equal seeing them acted out.

Ed

I agree about the false reasoning, but I would say that people can write in a pornographic way (such as with a book like “50 Shades of Gray”).

Of course, the Bible does not do that either. There is a difference is saying “Adam knew his wife Eve” and an author who give a protracted, descriptive play-by-play of the act.

I’m sure you agree, Ed, I just wanted to head off a potential objection to your post.

 

[Padres1969]

Padres, try reading again. Game of Thrones and Michelangelo have nothing in common. Art and porn have nothing in common. Apparently you have trouble differentiating between the two. Nudity and explicit sex, simulated or not,are two very different things no matter how you like to spin it. How common, brief, etc. it is in Game of Thrones is also not a determining factor.

Probably where we differ then. I do consider Game of Thrones, both the books and TV movies, a form of art.

 

[edwest2]

I agree about the false reasoning, but I would say that people can write in a pornographic way (such as with a book like “50 Shades of Gray”).

Of course, the Bible does not do that either. There is a difference is saying “Adam knew his wife Eve” and an author who give a protracted, descriptive play-by-play of the act.

I’m sure you agree, Ed, I just wanted to head off a potential objection to your post.

I do agree. Think of the Confessional. Telling the priest “I had sex with my girlfriend” does not require detailed descriptions, much less bringing along a tablet and showing him bits and pieces of what went on. I appreciate your help.

Ed