One Man's Musings

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GhostMan

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I’ve been posting here for close to two years, I believe. In that time, I’ve learned a lot and been forced to consider some things that I would not have before. I’ve also developed a series of items may not be of interest to anyone else, but that confound me none-the-less.

There seems to be a strange and pervasive belief that annulment is a “get out of jail free” card; a do-over, so to speak. That saddens me. There can be nothing more sorrowful, on this side of the grave at least, than an annulment. It speaks of broken dreams and vows, hurt and pain that go far beyond the two people involved and a betrayal of the highest order. Yet, in spite of that, I often see someone post “leave him (or, much less frequently, her) and seek an annulment.” This must be the course of last attempt. Surely we are called to do everything in our power – even bearing a cross that seems too difficult for us – rather than demanding our own way and wanting to try again. An annulment should reflect badly on both parties badly enough to make it rare. Even the aggrieved party must bear some guilt for failing to properly discern the motivations of his or her spouse. Many of you will take me to task for that, but what then is the dating/courtship process about? What does God call us to do in that time?

It amuses me that a post bashing men will span pages while one talking about respecting your husband dies a quick and silent death. Kudos to the ladies who posted – you have my respect.

Another thing that bothers me is the incredible standards that some women demand of men. The poll about canceling an engagement over a man who freely confessed an impure thought almost drove me over the edge. The original poster was called out be several people for potential conflict of interest and yet the posts continued. Yes, the poll was in favor of continuing, but there were enough “yes” votes to make me queasy. Surely some of the women who said yes must be capable of walking on water on command. Something about “log and speck” comes to mind.

For a people who believe that marriage is a vocation and a Sacrament, there are many who call for divorce faster that a protestant pastor with a wandering eye and a frisky church secretary.

A man who no longer believes his wife is gorgeous because she has put on weight or bears the scares of pregnancy is a pig (rightly so), while a woman who decides that she is “done with sex” is probably just tired or depressed. Hmmm.

OK, now please read this caveat: Porn is bad; it is a sin; it has no place in any man or woman’s life. It is destructive to the soul and body; it breaks down the bonds of a marriage. Now, having said that, it seems like the worst possible sin a man can commit is to watch porn. Also, any man who watches porn is (usually) abusive, possibly a child molester, controlling, destructive and not worth even being in the same room with. Re-read my initial section on Porn now before you accuse me of defending it.

I think it’s time to put porn into perspective. (See the caveat if you are getting mad at me). What if you saw a post that said:

Initial Post: My wife is a gossip and a liar. Should I leave her?
Response: Gossip is as the sin of witchcraft, she must stop. Go see a priest.
Response: If your wife is a witch she could cause your children to stumble spiritually.
Response: Witchcraft is child abuse; report your wife now and leave the house.
Response: Some witches like to dance naked in the moonlight.
Response: Your wife is obviously sleeping with other men in the nude dancing ceremonies. Get tested for VD.
Response: She might be sleeping with a priest of Satan. Get out now.

The whole idea is ludicrous, right? No more so than several posts like that I’ve seen about men and porn. (Please re-read the caveat now). Porn is a serious sin, so is gossip, so are lies, so is reading lusty novels about swarthy men. These all detract in our own lives and our marriage, but to even suggest that someone leave another person over one of them is to bitterly color the vocation of marriage.
 
I’ve been posting here for close to two years, I believe. In that time, I’ve learned a lot and been forced to consider some things that I would not have before. I’ve also developed a series of items may not be of interest to anyone else, but that confound me none-the-less.

There seems to be a strange and pervasive belief that annulment is a “get out of jail free” card; a do-over, so to speak. That saddens me. There can be nothing more sorrowful, on this side of the grave at least, than an annulment. It speaks of broken dreams and vows, hurt and pain that go far beyond the two people involved and a betrayal of the highest order. Yet, in spite of that, I often see someone post “leave him (or, much less frequently, her) and seek an annulment.” This must be the course of last attempt. Surely we are called to do everything in our power – even bearing a cross that seems too difficult for us – rather than demanding our own way and wanting to try again. An annulment should reflect badly on both parties badly enough to make it rare. Even the aggrieved party must bear some guilt for failing to properly discern the motivations of his or her spouse. Many of you will take me to task for that, but what then is the dating/courtship process about? What does God call us to do in that time?

While I agree with you that seeking out a legal divorce, then annulment should be a last resort, I don’t understand your comment that if a person decides to marry another–how could that person possibly know every motivation that the other has to marry him/her? (thus if the motivation was insincere, the injured spouse should have somehow known that before marriage) Think I need some clarity on that point.

It amuses me that a post bashing men will span pages while one talking about respecting your husband dies a quick and silent death. Kudos to the ladies who posted – you have my respect.

***I don’t necessarily see male bashing on this forum, but I have seen disparaging remarks about men, AT TIMES. I don’t believe insulting men or women is the norm on this board, nor would it be permitted to go on for pages, without ending up as a closed thread. ***

Another thing that bothers me is the incredible standards that some women demand of men. The poll about canceling an engagement over a man who freely confessed an impure thought almost drove me over the edge. The original poster was called out be several people for potential conflict of interest and yet the posts continued. Yes, the poll was in favor of continuing, but there were enough “yes” votes to make me queasy. Surely some of the women who said yes must be capable of walking on water on command. Something about “log and speck” comes to mind.

I don’t remember that thread…it seems extreme to end an engagement over something like that, I agree. But…we’re not bound to someone through vows when we’re engaged, so maybe the comments (I would need to read the thread to get the gist of the comments, however) were given as a potential last resort if the person won’t stop the behavior. ***

For a people who believe that marriage is a vocation and a Sacrament, there are many who call for divorce faster that a protestant pastor with a wandering eye and a frisky church secretary.

A man who no longer believes his wife is gorgeous because she has put on weight or bears the scares of pregnancy is a pig (rightly so), while a woman who decides that she is “done with sex” is probably just tired or depressed. Hmmm.

OK, now please read this caveat: Porn is bad; it is a sin; it has no place in any man or woman’s life. It is destructive to the soul and body; it breaks down the bonds of a marriage. Now, having said that, it seems like the worst possible sin a man can commit is to watch porn. Also, any man who watches porn is (usually) abusive, possibly a child molester, controlling, destructive and not worth even being in the same room with. Re-read my initial section on Porn now before you accuse me of defending it.

I think it’s time to put porn into perspective. (See the caveat if you are getting mad at me). What if you saw a post that said:

Initial Post: My wife is a gossip and a liar. Should I leave her?
Response: Gossip is as the sin of witchcraft, she must stop. Go see a priest.
Response: If your wife is a witch she could cause your children to stumble spiritually.
Response: Witchcraft is child abuse; report your wife now and leave the house.
Response: Some witches like to dance naked in the moonlight.
Response: Your wife is obviously sleeping with other men in the nude dancing ceremonies. Get tested for VD.
Response: She might be sleeping with a priest of Satan. Get out now.

The whole idea is ludicrous, right? No more so than several posts like that I’ve seen about men and porn. (Please re-read the caveat now). Porn is a serious sin, so is gossip, so are lies, so is reading lusty novels about swarthy men. These all detract in our own lives and our marriage, but to even suggest that someone leave another person over one of them is to bitterly color the vocation of marriage.

I think the reason that porn is a bit more …what’s the word…grave than other sins (while all can be grave) is that often times, it leads one spouse away from another, typically. This doesn’t excuse other sins, whether venial or mortal, but porn has the propensity to turn marriages on their ears…in a hurry. If a husband is looking at porn, and the wife knows, however she found out…she feels inadequate, betrayed, etc…I don’t have personal dealings with this, however, but in reading these threads, my heart goes out to all women who are battling that sin that has gripped their husbands. I will agree with you in the extent, that I think that if a man is willing to seek counseling for it, then divorce should be a last resort.

In everything you wrote, there are things I agree with but always remember that you’re only reading a snippit of people’s lives here on an internet forum. The advice given is just part of the story. There are two sides to every story. When I read a particular thread, let’s say it is about a wife struggling to get her husband to stop viewing porn–I will try to offer advice that I know will help their marriage, but we don’t know all of the details. In some cases, for the welfare and health of a wife/husband, divorce might be the only alternative. We simply don’t know all of the details. I think that we can only offer as much advice as we know best…through God’s grace…and hope it helps.

If I could have my musings for a moment…the greatest, single most thing that irks me the most is lack of charity in threads, on here, at times. The moderators do a marvelous job of helping us all to see the value in replying to our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, with respect. If we are to talk the talk, we must walk the walk…and being right doesn’t matter, if you hurt someone to get your point across.:o

Interesting thread, GM…hope to hear more replies to you.***
 
Whatever girl,

Thanks for your thought reply.

Here is a link to the thread about the engagement:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=256949

I respect your replies, but I differ with you one point (Dear Reader: please re-read my caviet before saying I support porn)

I do not believe it is more grave than numerious other sins that tear apart a marriagem like - for instance - a lack of respect on the wife’s part or her unilateral decision to end marital relations. Neither of those would be reasonable grounds - by themselves - for a divorce. I not only see seperation urged when a man is accused of port, but I see women with children being told to leave the man. Tearing apart a family over this? Sorry, you’ll never get me to agree (Dear reader: read the caveat again).

As for your request for clarification on marriage. I do believe that we bear responsibilty to discern not only our calling but - to the greatest degree possible - our potential spouse’s. That’s hard, but the alternative is the high rate of divorce and annulment.

While you can’t know every motivation, I cannot believe that so many people hid their real personality so well for so long before marriage. I suspect that many people ignored the secret warnings in their soul, or the outright warnings of family and marry “for love”. I don’t believe in do-overs when it comes to marriage. If I were in charge the rate of annulments would be .000000001% of what it is now. then again, I’m not in charge! 🙂
 
I sometimes wonder if every woman grows horns and a tail the moment her son marries - you would think so if you read here often. Perhaps we can all learn to be a bit more welcoming and loving of those people we speak about…
 
Whatever girl,

Thanks for your thought reply.

Here is a link to the thread about the engagement:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=256949

I respect your replies, but I differ with you one point (Dear Reader: please re-read my caviet before saying I support porn)

I do not believe it is more grave than numerious other sins that tear apart a marriagem like - for instance - a lack of respect on the wife’s part or her unilateral decision to end marital relations. Neither of those would be reasonable grounds - by themselves - for a divorce. I not only see seperation urged when a man is accused of port, but I see women with children being told to leave the man. Tearing apart a family over this? Sorry, you’ll never get me to agree (Dear reader: read the caveat again).

As for your request for clarification on marriage. I do believe that we bear responsibilty to discern not only our calling but - to the greatest degree possible - our potential spouse’s. That’s hard, but the alternative is the high rate of divorce and annulment.

While you can’t know every motivation, I cannot believe that so many people hid their real personality so well for so long before marriage. I suspect that many people ignored the secret warnings in their soul, or the outright warnings of family and marry “for love”. I don’t believe in do-overs when it comes to marriage. If I were in charge the rate of annulments would be .000000001% of what it is now. then again, I’m not in charge! 🙂
LOL–I know you don’t support porn…!😛

I agree with what you’re saying now…I have often wondered how so many marriages could have not been valid, when at the time of the vows, the couples looked so happy and enthusiastic for a lifetime together. Yeah, I dunno. I believe that people who are in abusive relationships, or relationships where a spouse has truly abandoned them, deserve a chance to be happy with another human being on this earth. In Her infinite Wisdom and Compassion, the RCC sees that in some circumstances, these marriages shouldn’t have happened to begin with–and an annulment can be an opportunity for someone to begin anew. I don’t believe that people who have gone through the process come away clicking their heels, and quickly move onto the next marriage…In what I have read here from those who have gone through annulments, it seems rather painful and arduous of a process–and if it’s granted, then who are we to The Church’s decision?
 
GhostMan, I agree with you.

I will state that in the past I have disagreed with you about certain topics but to this I agree heartily.

I believe in forgiveness, I believe in the second chance and not to condemn someone based on one factor. So many times have I read a thread about a fiance who messed up at his bachelor party, or a husband who got caught with porn. And instead of treating it like every other mortal sin, we tell the woman to leave. To break it of as quickly as possible because he must be evil.

Just today some woman wrote about her husband getting a vasectomy. A reply was given advising to just leave and try for an annulment.

Have we all forgotten what For Better or for Worse means? Through Sickness and in Health? Sin is a sickness, and it can be cured through the Church and the Sacraments. For worse really does mean for worse, not until we think oh, well, maybe I can get an annulment- they seem to be easy and everyone gets on.

I started a thread years ago very like this. A man wrote about how his wife wouldn’t sleep with him, and they all advised divorcing her. People are giving life changing, permanent, advice based on a paragraph or two. No doubt those paragraphs written by someone emotionally on edge due to the circumstances.

I don’t think this board has the charity that it should have. Divorce everyone who has a porn problem, break off the engagement even if the fiance looks at someone else, don’t even dare to think about dating someone who isn’t Catholic- they’ll lead future children into hell, those that weren’t virgins at marriage aren’t worthy of it- we all know they are capable of sex outside marriage.

Slightly extreme, those, but I’ve read similar all on this board.

Yes, if there is a true problem then do please get help. But don’t jump ship when the clouds are getting a bit grey, or even if it’s raining. Jesus calmed the storm with a word and made it go away- He can do all things.

You’re never given more than you can handle… just trust in God.
 
Another thing that bothers me is the incredible standards that some women demand of men. The poll about canceling an engagement over a man who freely confessed an impure thought almost drove me over the edge. The original poster was called out be several people for potential conflict of interest and yet the posts continued. Yes, the poll was in favor of continuing, but there were enough “yes” votes to make me queasy. Surely some of the women who said yes must be capable of walking on water on command. Something about “log and speck” comes to mind.
Which women are you talking about? The person who suggested that the woman break her engagement was a man!

I don’t see any woman on that thread who suggested that she break the engagement.
 
Ghostman, you’re missing a few things in your comments.

Have you ever talked to a priest about porn? Have you heard them say how it is one of the hardest things to root out, almost like drug abuse, and how absolutely corrosive it is to the man and his relationships and how it even leads to the degradation of his spouse? Have you contemplated that the man (or more rarely) the woman who opens that sewage pipe into the sanctity of the home is opening children up to the complete betrayal of their innocence?

Porn is a progressive thing. Are you suggesting a woman stay with a porn addicted spouse until the kids have been exposed and until she has been degraded and her self respect is irreparable?

Sin has social consequences. Porn changes the viewer, and often very quickly.

Are you asking that a family be taken along for that ride? When do YOU suggest they jump off for their own emotional and spiritual safety?

As for annulments… I’ve said several times on this board that without serious reason, a couple contemplating divorce would do better to take paring knives and gut each other in the kitchen in front of the children. It would be faster, cheaper and less traumatic to everyone concerned than the divorce procedure.

But there are fates worse than that. And there are people who have written here who have been through horrible experiences that threaten their safety and their children. Are you suggesting THEY stay?

And yes, in 20/20 hindsight, I can see that the man I married was NOT what he seemed. But by your standards, I would have been a fool to toss him out during the engagement because of one sin, one looking at another woman, or one confession of lying to me. If I’d done that, I would have been unforgiving. But by giving him the benefit of the doubt and marrying a sociopath, who revealed his true colors after the wedding, now I am someone who acted imprudently, right?

Annulments aren’t easy. I’m so glad you’d withhold them from people. How dare anyone want a get out of jail free card. Let me tell you about that “jail.” My inability to see the true motives of my fiance have led me to doubt myself so completely that I have never dated since the divorce and annulment. Who would I trust.

You have no idea the trauma that’s involved in having to examine your courtship, engagement, wedding and collapse of your marriage in detail for a bunch of strangers to read through. There was nothing easy about it. Maybe it will make you happy to know that I don’t know if I’ll ever be free.

Free to run off and marry again? I wish.

My freedom is in having my church say that despite my best efforts of more than a decade of trying, praying, sacrifice, accomodation, pleading, compromise and effort, that no, it was not a marriage and there is nothing I could have done to make it so. Because I was the only one in that marriage.

You don’t like people judging. So please don’t judge in return.
 
While you can’t know every motivation, I cannot believe that so many people hid their real personality so well for so long before marriage. I suspect that many people ignored the secret warnings in their soul, or the outright warnings of family and marry “for love”.
I tend to agree with that. Often, when reading posts, particularly from women, with serious complaints about their spouses, I have to think “for Pete’s sake, why did you marry him?” Most people don’t entirely change from pre-marriage to post-marriage.

(Once I had occasion to read a “chick-lit” book–non-fiction–wherein a series of women writers outlined their most egregious relationship ‘mistakes.’ I was astounded at the sorts of men whom they often literally followed home upon first encounter, and the amount of months or years that they wasted trying to make the wrong guy right.)

On the other hand, I do think that the culture has changed radically over the past 40 years or so, with detrimental effects on relationships between men and women. Contraception changed everything. Many women [and men] couldn’t or wouldn’t ‘just say no’ when everyone else was saying yes. And, just as Paul VI warned, it made men irresponsible and disrespectful of women. It made relationships inherently worse. So I think the changed culture has a large impact here.
 
I haven’t read any other responses here, but will say in my case, that staying in my marriage would have been dealing with the devil. Porn had a part in it’s demise, in that my ex became desensitized to the meaning of sex in marriage. He ended up seeing sex as something that was merely fun to explore with other people, that it was no big deal to do so, and that I should start doing the same. He thought I was being narrow-minded because I didn’t think having sex with other people for fun was right.

He told me it was my fault, because I didn’t have sex with him enough. How much is enough? We hadn’t stopped having sex, but certainly it wasn’t as frequent as it had been before kids. And did stepping outside our marriage make things better? No, it made things worse because he emotionally distanced himself when he did so. It was a very lonely marriage, in retrospect. But I didn’t leave. He did. Because I finally put my foot down and told him that his promiscuous behavior had to stop. I was terrified because I thought I was breaking my marriage vows. I wasn’t. He was.

Do you figure God would want me to stay in a relationship where my ex was having un-protected sex with other people (not just one or two, but many)? How could I fulfill my conjugal duties in that case? Putting myself at risk of STDs, including HIV, would not be fair to my three children. He gave me one STD; how many more of those should I have suffered, as part of my cross? Do you think dying of AIDs is a fair price to stay in a marriage like mine, leaving my kids without either a mother or father?

Was I responsible for his choices? I don’t know…would I have been responsible had he chosen to lie about his taxes, rob a bank, rape, perhaps even murder other people? I don’t think so. He made his choices. One of them was to leave us.

I am going through an annulment and I am not sure why, except that the priest I consulted said I had a good case. So far it has been incredibly painful, not healing in the least. I am not dating, I am lonely, but I have built up a good network of friends who are also going though the same thing, because married people don’t understand how hard this has been.
 
He ended up seeing sex as something that was merely fun to explore with other people, that it was no big deal to do so, and that I should start doing the same. He thought I was being narrow-minded because I didn’t think having sex with other people for fun was right.
Unfortunately, this understanding of sex has become rather generalized in the culture, and celebrated in the media. In a sense, the contraceptive culture has poisoned the dating pool, which in turn has poisoned many marriages.
 
There can be nothing more sorrowful, on this side of the grave at least, than an annulment. It speaks of broken dreams and vows, hurt and pain that go far beyond the two people involved and a betrayal of the highest order.
It is the failed marriage that speaks of broken dreams and vows, hurt and pain, and betrayal. The annulment is just the Catholic Church’s way of rubbing people’s noses in it before they will let them marry again.
 
Just Lurking, you have no idea what you are talking about. But I’ll tell you this… I have watched women go from one husband to another in churches that don’t require annulments. And they seem to marry the same man over and over because they never had to sit and examine their choice, their expectations, what they want from marriage… And so they fall into the same trap that led them to marry the first failure.

Annulments DO help in that regard.
While you can’t know every motivation, I cannot believe that so many people hid their real personality so well for so long before marriage. I suspect that many people ignored the secret warnings in their soul, or the outright warnings of family and marry “for love”.
Well, then you never were engaged to a man who looked you in the eye with tears in his own, held your hand and vowed that he would cut off his right arm rather than ever lift a hand to hurt you. And then have that same man after the wedding and after the first baby or two had come along throwing you against walls and choking you. My family didn’t see it either. It wasn’t something we were familiar with. Better believe I see a lot of red lights now in people. Once you know what to look for, you tend to never ignore it.

If my soul had given me any inkling of the nasty times ahead, I would have flung the ring in his face and called a cab when he proposed.

And while there are men who are abused by wives, it’s less rare, they’re often less financially dependent (not as many women find ways to prevent their husbands from working or move them far from family and isolate them) and the physical danger of staying with them isn’t as great as a man who abuses his wife.

So maybe more men stay.
 
In a sense, the contraceptive culture has poisoned the dating pool, which in turn has poisoned many marriages.
And Jim, this is a huge part in the increase in annulments. This contraceptive mentality has poisoned people and made many incapable of real marriage.

I like how a woman who leaves a husband who had a vasectomy is pilloried. Wait. Did he tell her beforehand? What of her guilt feeling she is sinning then every time she has relations with him? What if she wanted more children?

That matters. She has a right to leave if it was arbitrary and her own conscience was violated. There is a man who has no clue that marriage makes the two one body and his decision to alter his body is not his alone.
 
Just Lurking, you have no idea what you are talking about.
I’ve experienced the “healing” power of annulment first-hand. My only guess is that the Catholic Church endorses Nietzsche’s sentiment of that which doesn’t kill you strengthens you.

And as for the costs involved, don’t forget to include the $8000 in lawyer’s fees to deal with an aggravated ex-wife who is not happy that her marriage of 12 years was declared null and void, and takes it out on you by interfering with visitation.
 
Yes, it was a guy telling his female friend to leave her fiance because of one impure thought.

And yes, sometimes you don’t know a person’s true colors till you marry them. There are people (men and women) who act completely different when dating/courting/engaged but reveal themselves after the wedding, when their spouse is “stuck” with them. That IS definite grounds for an annulment, because they realized they married under false pretenses. Neither spouse, man or woman, should get sterilized without their spouses consent. I could understand wanting to leave, as I’d probably feel guilty for having sex that wasn’t open to life and I’d feel cheated of the chance to have more children.

While men do get abused, are denied relations, etc, abuse does happen more to women, simply because of biology: women aren’t as physically strong, so it’s very difficult to fight back (yes, you have a few who could kick some serious butt, but still, that’s only a few). Also, many women do choose to stay at home with their children and if they’ve been out of the work force/haven’t finished college/don’t have a lot of job skills, it’s harder to escape financially. Pornography is also more frequent among men, while many women (Christian and non-Christian) feel it’s at least immature, if not degrading.

Not a bash against men, just general truth.
 
I sound hard, and maybe I am, but I do believe that most, not all, most people who end up in bad marriages missed the warning signs along the way or failed to seek out character references. I don’t think most abusers start with their wives, frankly. Most abusers start out being abused themselves. It is incumbant upon people contemplating marriage to get to know the entire family, as well as friends and ex-boyfriends of girlfriends.

I also have deep compassion for people who are in horrible marriages. I do not think, nor did I even hint at, that a person should stay in a marriage that is dangerous. I just said that seeking an annulment was often a way to get a do-over.

If you are in a bad marriage and feel threatened, leave. Just don’t say you were completely fooled and had no idea. I personally don’t believe that is possible if someone is actively discerning what the other person is really made of. Almost no one, again almost, can hide their true colors forever in front of everyone that he or she knows.

I’m not here to take away your annulment, I’m just personally convinced that they are given out far too easily much of the time. Sometimes we make mistakes and have to live with them. Personally responsibility is a bear.
While men do get abused, are denied relations, etc, abuse does happen more to women, simply because of biology: women aren’t as physically strong, so it’s very difficult to fight back.
I have to disagree with this 100%. Men get abused - in different ways - just as often as women. Certainly with women it is more likely to be physical, but don’t kid yourself. This type of mentality has led to men being assumed to be the abuser. Women are just as good at torturing a man as men are to women.
 
I agree with the original poster. There is such a tendency to “man-bash” here, and a push towards divorce, annulment, and seperation in so many threads. I think that a big part of it is that the culture we live in encourages the belittling and disrespect of men in general, and husbands in particular. Look at so many of the television commercials where the man is dumb, incompetent, and ridiculous while the woman is the smart, competent, “hero” of the piece.
When I worked outside the home I heard so many women in the office complain about their husbands, almost unconciously. I’m not saying that none of the women on the forum have anything to complain about, but the ever-present din of man-bashing drowns out the more serious complaints.

As for porn. It is such a problem in our culture! It is such a horrible, horrible thing. And it can destroy marriages, but it doesn’t need to. It’s a sin, and all sin to some extent drives a wedge between couples. But discovering your husband is viewing porn is not enough to destroy the covenent you made as a couple. Remember that marriage is a symbol of God’s covenent with His people; the people who were unfaithful. The people who nailed Him to the cross.

Pax et bonum,
Masha
 
Just don’t say you were completely fooled and had no idea. I personally don’t believe that is possible if someone is actively discerning what the other person is really made of. Almost no one, again almost, can hide their true colors forever in front of everyone that he or she knows.
Wow. In today’s highly mobile environment, you’re suggesting it’s even possible to travel across the country to visit a boyfriend’s hometown and interview his ex girlfriends? You’re saying his mother (who later told me she didn’t know and didn’t want to know what he was doing) would tell me the truth about him? I thought because of his job and his rank and his education and outward behavior that he had passed the scrutiny of professionals. I was shown his OERs from his superior officers giving glowing reports of his unflappability and excellence of character. His current work friends seemed to indicate he was a good guy. What did they know either? 🤷 Maybe if I’d been engaged for ten years and lived with him before marrying him, I might have found out his “true colors.” You’ll be happy to know I personally will bear the effects of my irresponsible marital choice for the rest of my life in the form of a debilitating injury. That’s what I get for once being a dumb 22 year old deeply in love with a man whose greatest talent was pretending to be something he was not. 👍 See, I didn’t get off easy. Happy? 😃

Ladies and Gentlemen, I hate to break it to you as you listen to women in the office complain about their husbands. But you work among such men as my non-husband. They’re great to you! They almost NEVER pick a fight with a man their size who could fight back. They’re charming out on the street. They flirt with the women in the office and seem very very NICE! That’s the same facade we fell for. They’re not going to tell you they threw their dinner plate at the wall because they didn’t want chicken and rice last night.

I hate to tell you you work with wifebeaters. But all those men out there have jobs somewhere! They’re hiding their cruel streak from you just as they hid it from us.

But again, you can’t have it both ways. Someone was trying to discern if a man confessing impure thoughts might be the tip of the kind of iceberg that sinks a marriage, and you think that is horrible? Which is it!!! Will she someday be writing her annulment petition and discussing the “early signs” of his years of infidelity which she ignored during the engagement and tried to give him the benefit of the doubt?

You have a point. Society seems to respect men less and less. Now we have movies about 40 year old men behaving like children. Everyone laughs. What does that say about our culture that such movies are even out there? Would John Wayne have made a movie about living at home with his parents and making body function jokes? Times HAVE changed. The Greatest Generation has surrendered the field to the Stupidest Generation.

Respect must be earned. Our divorce laws and the playboy culture and the abortion/birth control mentality (all eagerly put forward by male judges and courts) have made it very easy for men during the last several decades to refuse to grow up and take their own responsibility. They can walk away from one family after another quite easily.

And you wonder why they’re the butt of jokes now.

My my! 🤷

What happened to heroic virtues and integrity, honesty and hard work? It’s been replaced by men behaving badly who encourage the girls gone wild.

Those of you who honestly treat your own wives and children with respect, fidelity, and kindness need not respond to this. You aren’t guilty. But until the men (I use that term loosely) who perpetuate their own stereotypes grow up, women will continue to point it out. Sorry if it hurts your feelings.

And no, women aren’t perfect. They are the ones making the decision to have abortions (which many may not make if the men who impregnated them behaved like adults about it). They are the ones raising these sons to behave badly.

But coming here complaining about the symptom of a deep societal problem does nothing to take care of the problem.
 

If I could have my musings for a moment…the greatest, single most thing that irks me the most is lack of charity in threads, on here, at times. The moderators do a marvelous job of helping us all to see the value in replying to our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, with respect. If we are to talk the talk, we must walk the walk…and being right doesn’t matter, if you hurt someone to get your point across.:o ***
I think you hit the nail on the head with this paragraph. I’ve witnessed some of the nicest people being bashed lately! 😦

It seems most of what bothers the OP has its roots in lack of charity. I like whatevergirl’s ability to see the big picture.

It’s good to have a thread like this every so often, if only to serve as a wake up call, so thank you GhostMan.
 
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