One more thread about submission

[Xantippe]

Certainly, when the concept goes to the extent where the husband essentially acts like an absolute monarch of the family, accountable to no one except his concept of God, or perhaps some church elders, this goes too far.

And in the Protestant world, that’s such a scam, because he can always church shop until he finds church leadership that agrees with him.

And even so, plenty of super duper patriarchal men don’t have a conventional “church home” because they can’t find one that’s good enough for them. Always a bad sign, I think.

So, unfortunately, the extreme fundamentalist Protestant view tends to be “wife obeys husband and husband obeys nobody.”

 

[UbiCaritas]

**Proper Clothing for Catholic Women
**
“Men should not act like women and women should not act like men.”

[Deuteronomy]
{22:5} A woman shall not be clothed with manly apparel, nor shall a man make use of feminine apparel. For whoever does these things is abominable with God.
**
[Matthew]**
**{5:17} **Do not think that I have come to loosen the law or the prophets. I have not come to loosen, but to fulfill.
**{5:18} **Amen I say to you, certainly, until heaven and earth pass away, not one iota, not one dot shall pass away from the law, until all is done.
{5:19} Therefore, whoever will have loosened one of the least of these commandments, and have taught men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever will have done and taught these, such a one shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Saint Padre Pio use to refuse to hear the confession of women who were wearing pants or an immodest dress.

Re your last: by which standards, he’d have refused to hear St. Gianna Molla’s confession. You know, the married, practicing pediatrician who was canonized a few years ago?

Point being, saints aren’t infallible. St. Thomas Aquinas thought that male babies got their souls forty days earlier than girls, and that neither, IIRC, had souls until some time after conception. That’s not what the Church teaches.

Also, what women and men wear varies from culture to culture. I rather enjoy pointing out to the “Women who wear pants are evil temptresses” camp that by that standard, Our Lady of La Vang would have been classed along with those of us shameless women who wear jeans today.

Fashion and cultures vary wildly. What’s acceptable in one place and time isn’t necessarily so in another. Just as most people would agree that I, as a married woman, needn’t cover my hair if anyone but my husband is present, most people would agree that in much of the West it’s not generally “done” for a woman to walk around topless…yet in various parts of the world, it is.

 

[Xantippe]

Re your last: by which standards, he’d have refused to hear St. Gianna Molla’s confession. You know, the married, practicing pediatrician who was canonized a few years ago?

Point being, saints aren’t infallible. St. Thomas Aquinas thought that male babies got their souls forty days earlier than girls, and that neither, IIRC, had souls until some time after conception. That’s not what the Church teaches.

Also, what women and men wear varies from culture to culture. I rather enjoy pointing out to the “Women who wear pants are evil temptresses” camp that by that standard, Our Lady of La Vang would have been classed along with those of us shameless women who wear jeans today.

Fashion and cultures vary wildly. What’s acceptable in one place and time isn’t necessarily so in another. Just as most people would agree that I, as a married woman, needn’t cover my hair if anyone by my husband is present, most people would agree that in much of the West it’s not generally “done” for a woman to walk around topless…yet in various parts of the world, it is.

Not to mention Catholics often hear sneering about our clergy being men in “dresses.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassock

 

[UbiCaritas]

Not to mention Catholics often hear sneering about our clergy being men in “dresses.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassock

Heh. I’d quite forgotten the most obvious example of all.

 

[Xantippe]

BEL,

I’d say I’m traditional, but not hyper-traditional.

 

[Dulcie]

Unfortunately this topic seems to be going the way of the last one… But as I’d rather not have this locked down anytime soon, let me try to open the discussion to the posters who actually follow a “traditional” model of wifely submission in real life.

Agreed. It’s really irritating to see a great thread about loving Christian marriages sidetracked by wacko arguments about it being sinful for women to wear trousers, or the Pope believing that all women are really glorified children with angel wings who should stay home and keep quiet. Both views are such ridiculous caricatures of Catholicism. Can’t we get back to the spirit of the OP, please?

In terms of submission, I can’t speak from 20 years experience as some here can but my agreeing to submit to DH has so far changed the dynamic of our relationship by making me more able to open up to him and trust that I can rely on him to look out for me and my interests. This, in turn, has led to my agreeing to obey Church teaching in ways I didn’t think I could (NFP, mainly), and in making me decide that I’d rather prioritise the good of our relationship than go full steam ahead with my career. I couldn’t have managed either of these things without the authority/submission model, because it’s somehow enabled him to “become the man”, showing me how much he wants to live out faithful Catholic marriage and make a home for me. At no point has he “ordered” me to do anything (especially the career aspect) and nor would he do so. But it has allowed me to feel that it’s OK for me to ignore the message of the secular world, which is very much “you must stand on your own two feet, remain completely independent, and concentrate on your career without allowing family to interrupt that” and that it’s not selfish or lazy to let him be the breadwinner for a while.

Submission for me has come to mean very little to do with obeying orders, and rather a lot to do with accepting being loved.

 

[marymary1975]

​

10 Bible reasons why a wife must submit to her husband regardless of culture:

• Creation order: Man was created first, woman second. "For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. " 1 Timothy 2:13
• Creation origin: Man and all creation was created by God directly out of dust, whereas woman was created through the man’s rib. "Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. " Genesis 2:7 Woman is the only creature not made from dust. Woman derives her origin from Man. "The Lord God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. " Genesis 2:22 “For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man” 1 Corinthians 11:8
• Creation purpose: Woman created for man: “for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake.” 1 Corinthians 11:9
• Man named woman: Adam named the animals and was to rule over them. "Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. " Genesis 2:19 “rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” Genesis 1:28 When Eve was brought to Adam, he named her, showing he was to rule over woman as well. “The man said, “This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.”” Genesis 2:23
• Delegation principle: God commanded directly to Adam alone. The prohibition to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, was made directly by God to Adam. Adam, in turn relayed what God said to Eve. Eve had not yet been created when God told Adam about the forbidden tree. Eve never actually heard God say this direct, but had to trust Adam’s word on the matter. “The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.”” Genesis 2:16-18
• Woman sinned first: The devil tempted Eve and she, not the man, was first deceived. Because of this, man put Eve under the headship of Adam. "And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. " 1 Timothy 2:14; “Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?”” Genesis 3:1
• God rebuked Adam first after they ate the forbidden fruit: Although Eve was the logical person for God to rebuke first, God went to Adam, showing that God considered Adam the “head of the family” for both. "Then the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?” " Genesis 3:9
• Man is the glory of God, woman is the glory of man: “For a man is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.” 1 Corinthians 11:7
• Paul pointed Christians to the Mosaic Law that was 1500 earlier and a different culture: 1 Cor.14:34
• Peter pointed Christians to Sarah, 2000 years earlier and a very different culture: 1 Pet. 3:5-6.

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69

None of this is actual catholic teaching. The catholic church does not follow sola scripture. Also the catholic church doesn’t have a dressing code neither for men nor for women. The catholic church requires modesty at dressing but there is no dressing code for anyone.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

BEL,

I’d say I’m traditional, but not hyper-traditional.

Here’s what I picture: You are 35ish, dressed to the 9’s, high heels and perfect makeup daily. You love red wine, ethnic food, and skim lattes. No time for the gym but you do trendy Pilate’s workouts in your spacious and perfectly decorated living room. You probably taught yourself to sew to save money on consumes and formal wear, and it slowly became a hobby and creative outlet. You used to work outside the home at a high powered corporate job, but you figured things would run more smoothly if you stayed home with the kids. And now you manage your home with the same diligence and energy that you brought to your company. And because you’re so go, go, go, you’ve managed to make your SAHM life at least as intellectually stimulating and stressful as your super corporate career was.. And if you’re traditional, it’s only because you’ve done the math and concluded that it is simply the most efficient way to get you and your family to heaven.

 

[marymary1975]

A lot of the dynamic between husbands and wives is a matter of prudential judgment not of law. Everyone has his/her own personality, for instance. What might convince/move one person doesn’t work on another, so there is no hard and fast “rule” about a wife’s position or a husband’s position, just a general outline based on authority. It’s part of the human condition to have to struggle a bit in human relationships no matter what they are. I can only speak from my own experience. My dh is a sensible, level-headed person most of the time, but not always. I’m pretty much the same, so we generally agree on most things. That’s why it’s best to marry someone who is compatable, not just someone who gets you all excited. The Church has instituted marriage prep courses–called Cana classes in the US–to help couples prepare for the realities of marriage and to deal with such issues. Before you marry in a Catholic parish in the US you and your intended would be expected to go through a Cana course, except under extreme circumstances such as imminent death. So, don’t worry about it. Find a sensible, faithful Catholic woman, get married and work out your issues together in Christ’s love. No one can do any better than that.

 

[hesso12]

It seems that you are ignoring the word of God,do you believe in the bible?,and the magisterium what it really teaches,mutual submission does not dissmiss role of husband and wife.

 

[hesso12]

​

None of this is actual catholic teaching. The catholic church does not follow sola scripture. Also the catholic church doesn’t have a dressing code neither for men nor for women. The catholic church requires modesty at dressing but there is no dressing code for anyone.

There is no dress code for anyone,because the catholic church does not force anyone to be modest but up to them if they wan to glorify God.

 

[LightBound]

**Proper Clothing for Catholic Women
**
“Men should not act like women and women should not act like men.”

[Deuteronomy]
{22:5} A woman shall not be clothed with manly apparel, nor shall a man make use of feminine apparel. For whoever does these things is abominable with God.
**
[Matthew]**
**{5:17} **Do not think that I have come to loosen the law or the prophets. I have not come to loosen, but to fulfill.
**{5:18} **Amen I say to you, certainly, until heaven and earth pass away, not one iota, not one dot shall pass away from the law, until all is done.
{5:19} Therefore, whoever will have loosened one of the least of these commandments, and have taught men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever will have done and taught these, such a one shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Saint Padre Pio use to refuse to hear the confession of women who were wearing pants or an immodest dress.

Last week you were listed as being “Catholic” and in the UK- this week, Eastern Catholic and in Pakistan. Are you traveling quite a bit? Your posts do not sound Eastern Catholic or even EO for that matter. You actually sound far more like someone with a trolling agenda who knows all the right buttons to push to upset people. Somehow, I’m having a hard time believing someone as “righteous” as yourself would even know who the Family Guy is, let alone, post a pic of him as you did here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13023271&postcount=36

Methinks your hand has been tipped The Padre Pio pants argument has been put to bed years ago on the forum- by a member of his own order. Sola Skirtura is not Catholic teaching and women in other cultures have worn pants long before the women in Biblical times, in the Middle East were wearing robes- same as the males. So, pants can actually be considered women’s apparel, in the historical context of human existence.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

It seems that you are ignoring the word of God,do you believe in the bible?,and the magisterium what it really teaches,mutual submission does not dissmiss role of husband and wife.

I just want to point out that this poster keeps popping in to be inflammatory, but seems completely unwilling or unable to engage in any meaningful back and forth discussion-which tends to involve the asking and answering of questions and elaborating when asked.

Usually, these threads get shut down because other posters get defensive and sucked into these tactics. Please, for the sake of friendly and meaningful discussion, let’s try not to let that happen this time. If he/she wants to posts something specific, reputable, or that expands upon a previous point, by all means, engage. But don’t let the thread get sidetracked at best, or uncharitable at worst over this sort of thing.

 

[hesso12]

Only one child? Move to Egypt? Speak Aramaic? Open a carpentry shop? Wear sandals?

Please be more explicit.

Use your common sense.
How did Joseph behave?
How did Mary behave?
How did Joseph Lead?
How did Joseph follow God?
How did Mary follow God?
How did they work together?
How did Mary submit to Joseph?
Why did Mary submit to Joseph?
How did Joseph show Love for Mary?
How did Mary show love for Joseph?
How did they work together?
Why was it important for Mary to submit to Joseph?
Why Joseph not demand from Mary to obey?
Why Mary did not manipulate Joseph?
Why did Joseph Not manipulate Mary?
Why did Mary dress modestly?
Why did Joseph dress modestly?
Why did Mary trust Joseph?

 

[Walking_Home]

Last week you were** listed as being “Catholic” and in the UK- this week, Eastern Catholic and in Pakistan. **Are you traveling quite a bit? Your posts do not sound Eastern Catholic or even EO for that matter. You actually sound far more like someone with a trolling agenda who knows all the right buttons to push to upset people. Somehow, I’m having a hard time believing someone as “righteous” as yourself would even know who the Family Guy is, let alone, post a pic of him as you did here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13023271&postcount=36

Methinks your hand has been tipped

---

Glad – I was not the only one that caught that – though the “change-over” happened toward the end of the thread – that was locked a couple of days ago.

 

[hesso12]

Last week you were listed as being “Catholic” and in the UK- this week, Eastern Catholic and in Pakistan. Are you traveling quite a bit? Your posts do not sound Eastern Catholic or even EO for that matter. You actually sound far more like someone with a trolling agenda who knows all the right buttons to push to upset people. Somehow, I’m having a hard time believing someone as “righteous” as yourself would even know who the Family Guy is, let alone, post a pic of him as you did here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13023271&postcount=36

Methinks your hand has been tipped The Padre Pio pants argument has been put to bed years ago on the forum- by a member of his own order. Sola Skirtura is not Catholic teaching and women in other cultures have worn pants long before the women in Biblical times, in the Middle East were wearing robes- same as the males. So, pants can actually be considered women’s apparel, in the historical context of human existence.

I put UK because this is a UK site,but really I was just pretending,to avoid people calling me a paki but I realised they won’t so I changed to my location,I searched a man running away and it came up with this picture.

 

[Walking_Home]

It seems that you are ignoring the word of God,do you believe in the bible?,and the magisterium what it really teaches,mutual submission does not dissmiss role of husband and wife.

---

Paying “lip service” to the Magisterium – while at the same time ignoring – that the Magisterial teaching via the Catechism – in which you will not find husband “headship”.

 

[hesso12]

---

Paying “lip service” to the Magisterium – while at the same time ignoring – that the Magisterial teaching via the Catechism – in which you will not find husband “headship”.

All Pakistan Catholic’s,acknowledge the leadership of the husband and the submission of the wife,Pakistan RC has full access to the Vatican catechism,and we are not poor.

 

[marymary1975]

I just want to point out that this poster keeps popping in to be inflammatory, but seems completely unwilling or unable to engage in any meaningful back and forth discussion-which tends to involve the asking and answering of questions and elaborating when asked.

Usually, these threads get shut down because other posters get defensive and sucked into these tactics. Please, for the sake of friendly and meaningful discussion, let’s try not to let that happen this time. If he/she wants to posts something specific, reputable, or that expands upon a previous point, by all means, engage. But don’t let the thread get sidetracked at best, or uncharitable at worst over this sort of thing.

 

[Walking_Home]

All Pakistan Catholic’s,acknowledge the leadership of the husband and the submission of the wife,Pakistan RC has full access to the Vatican catechism,and we are not poor.

---

Well – full access to the Catechism – is not reflected in your posts – since you continue to ignore the Catechism and depend on erroneous fundamentalist protestant interpretations and your “spins/twists”