One mortal sin from hell...

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Are you sure that swiping someone’s pencil is not grave matter??

Suppose the person is poor it is the only pencil he has?

Suppose the owner coming back to his desk to write down something really important that he is repeating in his head so he doesn’t forget only to find his pencil is gone and because of this he loses the important thought that would have led to a medical research breakthrough…
Suppose the pencil had a broken led and suppose no pencil sharpener or way to sharpen the pencil is around, is the pencil still useful?.. supposing only leads down rabbitt trails.
j:
There is an old adage about a horseshoe nail…
For Want of a Nail

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the message was lost.
For want of a message the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

Apply this to a business situation.
For want of a pencil the idea was lost.
For want of the idea the program was lost.
For want of the program the contract was lost.
For want of the contract the business was lost.
All for the want of a pencil (which somebody swiped - even though they knew they shouldn’t)

Grave matter is not always about the “size” of the theft, but the circumstances around it and the consequences of it.

Of course if one works from Love - one does not steal even small things…

Peace
James
As I said in my previous posts, grave matter is definitional. That’s so we don’t go down rabbitt trails trying to figure out and agree on, what is grave matter.
 
This is not exactly true. What one should say is that if one dies with and unrepentant Mortal sin on their soul, they would would go to hell.

The key is repentance. Of course with Mortal sin, indeed any serious sin, this repentance needs to include a firm commitment to get to confession. If one does not commit to go to confession as soon as they are reasonably able to, then there is an assumption, within Church teaching, that they are not truly repentant…

Hope that clears it up a bit.

Peace
James
I think we may be over stepping here a bit. I think we can say, it is possible to go to hell, but that is for God to know ALONE.

Being that the Church has never said this guy or that guy is in hell, we simply don’t know the depths of God’s mercy!

The paradigm should be on how do I as an individual, draw closer to God? How may I be a better participant in the divine nature of Christ, as part of the body of Christ so that I may love both God and neighbor.
 
Suppose the pencil had a broken led and suppose no pencil sharpener or way to sharpen the pencil is around, is the pencil still useful?.. supposing only leads down rabbitt trails.

As I said in my previous posts, grave matter is definitional. That’s so we don’t go down rabbitt trails trying to figure out and agree on, what is grave matter.
I agree that one can get carried away with supposing…I suppose this sort of thing can tie in to Scrupulocity…BUT…One cannot dismiss the fact that the gravity of an act can vary depending on the particulars of a circumstance.
To use a different object, stealing a piece of bread from a rich person is not the same thing as stealing a piece of bread from a poor person. The amount o bread remains the same, but the degree of damage done (the gravity) is quite different.

The way to avoid the rabbit trails is to start from the position of Love. Love God and Love Neighbor. If we Love, as we should, then we don’t steal - large or small - and we don’t have to worry about what might be grave matter.

Peace
James
 
I think we may be over stepping here a bit. I think we can say, it is possible to go to hell, but that is for God to know ALONE.

Being that the Church has never said this guy or that guy is in hell, we simply don’t know the depths of God’s mercy!
We are not overstepping any bounds here.
Church teaching is like a series of “If-Then” statements. If certain conditions are met, Then certain consequences follow.
If a person dies with an unrepentant mortal sin on their soul - Then they will go to hell. This is Church teaching and it is useful for us to know this so that we can avoid mortal sin and thus avoid hell.

The fact that the Church has never declared, “this guy or that guy is in hell”, does not change what the Church teaching on what will send one to hell.
It only says that we, and the Church herself, cannot know if the person repented before death or not.
The paradigm should be on how do I as an individual, draw closer to God? How may I be a better participant in the divine nature of Christ, as part of the body of Christ so that I may love both God and neighbor.
Totally agree with this.
Every Christian is much better served by drawing Closer to God through Love. Spending too much time on defining sin is, in my opinion, looking in the wrong direction.

Peace
James
 
Saying grave matter and mortal sin are the same thing, is like saying tobacco and tobacco cigarettes are the same. While a tobacco cigarette is always made up of tobacco, not all tobacco goes into cigarettes. The same with grave matter and mortal sin. Mortal sin is always from a grave matter, but not all grave matters are mortal sins.

As to your statement that stealing a pencil is not grave matter, I agree that stealing a pencil is likely a venial sin, but it’s still a grave matter.
1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.
Does that mean that everything stolen, which by the Catechism IS a grave sin, is a mortal sin? No. We have clear examples in the Catechism ( a poor man starving to death etc) whereby the sin is reduced, even removed. Grave does not always equal mortal, but mortal is always grave.
 
Satan loves to sell the idea that it is difficult to mortally sin. He must be doing a good job of selling that notion because few Catholics go to confession and much fewer than in the past.

Jesus said the road to eternal life is narrow and FEW there are that find it.

Now among the MANY of Catholics how many believe that it is difficult to committ a mortal sin and how many believe it isn’t?

“Work out your salvation with FEAR and trembling”. People who do FEAR dying in a state of MORTAL sin. That FEAR isn’t a bad thing–it like the FEAR of the Lord is a good thing!
Absolutely Jerry, Satan loves to sell a multitude of lies, including being stressed about the impossibility of not sinning at all, causing you to doubt the mercy of God and consequently to have such a a sense of unworthiness and inadequacy that you dislike the ‘impossibility’ of being pleasing to God.

We all sin and God knows better than any of us the impossibility of not sinning because we are sinners to a man/woman by our very nature. To be human is to be a sinner, we are expected to strive for perfection fair enough but I dont think that its feasible to expect to actually achieve perfection. Only Christ was without sin.

For the rest of us it is unavoidable and inevitable. But Christ died for our sins and for our chance of redemption inspite of our sinfulness.

A healthy conscience and a healthy regret for wrong doing is the key, the sacrament of penance is the necessary tool initiated by Christ for us to be absolved of sin, which we are bound by our human nature to do in life.

Gods mercy is greater than any sin. True contrition is the solution, and genuine effort not to sin is our duty. Fear of going to confession is what satan wants us to experience in the hope that we wont excersize humility and avail of the sacrament.

I would suggest that any of us burdoned by sinfulness try to focus on the mercy of God and the sacrament of penance as the victory over our sinfulness instead of becoming excessively stressed about our sin (which is part and parcel of being human).

Focus on the unfathomable mercy of God, not the gravity of sinfulness. The sacrament is there at any time it is needed, its as available as the air we breath and we dont deny ourself breath.
 
As I read these posts, it makes me understand the arguments many protestants have against our faith. We (collectively speaking) are in the dark about our own souls leaving many of us wallowing in guilt and confusion.

Catholics, probably more so then other christian faith systems often speak of relativtism and the wrong of relativtism . Yet perhaps we take our view of relativtism too far.

If a person is going 1 mph above the speedlimit (in other words he was not rendering onto Caesar what is Caerars - breaking the law) and a person steps out in front of his car and is kiiled because it took 2 more feet for the car to come to a complete stop than it otherwise would have, was the person sinning and was the death a result of the sin? For that matter even if no ramifications occured was he not still sinnning?

If you say, no, the person was not sinning in a grave manner are you not introducing relativtism?

It’s okay to speed 1mph hour over the speed limit but not 5? Or is it 10? Ahh it’s all relative…right?
 
As I read these posts, it makes me understand the arguments many protestants have against our faith. We (collectively speaking) are in the dark about our own souls leaving many of us wallowing in guilt and confusion.

Catholics, probably more so then other christian faith systems often speak of relativtism and the wrong of relativtism . Yet perhaps we take our view of relativtism too far.
:sad_yes: Way too many rules. We are in danger of being/becoming LEGALISTS [aka Pharisetical] … which Christ denounced, and whom he told they were not headed for Heaven.

We worry about the letter of the law, and not the ‘spirit’ of it. Protestants definately sleep sounder at night, with less guilt. When Catholics tell me they have no Salvation Assurance … if gives me serious pause, that we could doubt our Sealing IN CHRIST !!!
 
Today someone told me that Catholics are just one mortal sin from hell
As usual, your Protestant friend has it exactly backwards. He has a very distorted and erroneous view of Catholic teaching. One need only repent of his sins (as God’s word clearly says) and he will receive God’s merciful love and eternal salvation. Even if that is at the moment of his death.
 
The CC says one must get to confession to confess a mortal sin, when one commits a grave sin, willingly, knowingly and its a grave sin.
Not quite - Confession is the best way to know that you have received forgiveness. The Church is careful not to imply that God “can’t” forgive someone who hasn’t received sacramental confession.
Now I have heard many posters here say that if a person dies with a unconfessed mortal
sin that person would go straight to hell.
A mortal sin is, by definition, one that separates us from the love of God and if we die in that state we remain in that state. I’m pretty sure that all Christians believe in Hell. Everyone in Hell is guilty of an unconfessed mortal sin.
I don’t know the CC teaching on this.
I explained it to you in detail in post 26
 
:sad_yes: Way too many rules. We are in danger of being/becoming LEGALISTS [aka Pharisetical] … which Christ denounced, and whom he told they were not headed for Heaven.

Thank you for your response.

We worry about the letter of the law, and not the ‘spirit’ of it. Protestants definately sleep sounder at night, with less guilt. When Catholics tell me they have no Salvation Assurance … if gives me serious pause, that we could doubt our Sealing IN CHRIST !!!
I argue this point often. Most often my point goes unnoticed (or at least uncommented on) otherwise I get the pious telling me (usually in more polite terms) to take it or leave it. It is what is is. You (me) and my loved one’s die in mortal sin and burn forever.

I wonder where the truth lies? Numbers speak loudly; if our “legalistic” philosophy holds true, 99.something % will burn. If not, then where is the middleground?

I’d love to hear someone of our beloved apologists or theologeans address this issue head on. But it seems they are reluctant to. They will not address the dreaded “numbers” arguement.

If, they were to address it and hold to the 99+% who have a one way ticket to hell, how would thy answer the next logical question? (which is) Why did God devise such a negaitive plan?

Any takers? Where am I mistaken?
 
:sad_yes: Way too many rules. We are in danger of being/becoming LEGALISTS [aka Pharisetical] … which Christ denounced, and whom he told they were not headed for Heaven.

We worry about the letter of the law, and not the ‘spirit’ of it. Protestants definately sleep sounder at night, with less guilt. When Catholics tell me they have no Salvation Assurance … if gives me serious pause, that we could doubt our Sealing IN CHRIST !!!
Perhaps it is because you have an unusual manner of creating considerable confusion with much of your posting.
For example, when you say that “Protestants sleep sounder/less guilt” you fail to mention whether you believe these folks are more likely to go to Heaven than others. Who cares, really, what their subjective experience is? What is it you are saying about them?
Another example is your use of the term “Salvation Assurance” and it’s relationship to our “Sealing IN CHRIST”. What, exactly, are you trying to say? If it’s that because we are “sealed” in Christ that we cannot commit mortal sin and go to Hell, then I disagree with you. And if you are not saying that, then why use the term “Assurance of Salvation” which generally refers to assurance of Heaven? You are confusing!
 
:sad_yes: Way too many rules. We are in danger of being/becoming LEGALISTS [aka Pharisetical] … which Christ denounced, and whom he told they were not headed for Heaven.

We worry about the letter of the law, and not the ‘spirit’ of it. Protestants definately sleep sounder at night, with less guilt. When Catholics tell me they have no Salvation Assurance … if gives me serious pause, that we could doubt our Sealing IN CHRIST !!!
I understand what you said. 🙂
 
We are not overstepping any bounds here.
Church teaching is like a series of “If-Then” statements. If certain conditions are met, Then certain consequences follow.
If a person dies with an unrepentant mortal sin on their soul - Then they will go to hell. This is Church teaching and it is useful for us to know this so that we can avoid mortal sin and thus avoid hell.
I understand the criteria, but as to working that out 🤷
It seems to be subject to the conviction of conscience of the believer.

Its subject must be a grave (or serious) matter.
Who defines what is grave? The Church, or the conscience of the believer?

It must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense (no one is considered ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are inborn as part of human knowledge, but these principles can be misunderstood in a particular context).

Am I willingly, and knowingly going to do something and think “if I do this I’m going to hell”
Who determines the gravity of the sin, the Church or the believer?

It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin.

Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa!
The fact that the Church has never declared, “this guy or that guy is in hell”, does not change what the Church teaching on what will send one to hell.
It only says that we, and the Church herself, cannot know if the person repented before death or not.
Sure it’s possible to go to hell, but I can’t imagine for the life of me running around thinking “o’boy I better not do this or that, I might go to hell.” Whatever happen to Peace be with you and For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Totally agree with this.
Every Christian is much better served by drawing Closer to God through Love. Spending too much time on defining sin is, in my opinion, looking in the wrong direction.
Peace
James
Absolutely, you would just end up in a religion of legalism instead of a religion of love!

I think your end quote says it all, quite honestly…PEACE! 👍👍
 
your use of the term “Salvation Assurance” and it’s relationship to our “Sealing IN CHRIST”. What, exactly, are you trying to say? If it’s that because we are “sealed” in Christ that we cannot commit mortal sin and go to Hell, then I disagree with you.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the END OF THE LAW, that every one who has FAITH may be justified.

Philthy … Christ takes all our Mortal Sins, upon himself. The Law began, and ends in him. Provided we confess/repent of them … on regular basis. For some Catholics to teach that the INSTANT we commit a Mortal Sin, we go from saved to unsaved status … until we see and confess to a Priest is not c/w God’s mercy and love for his Sons/Daughters. It’s also no longer practically possible, by our Church’s confessional schedule.

For example: When I commit a mortal, I am aware of it. All mortal sin begins in our minds/hearts … we consider it and consent to it BEFORE we commit the sin. Sometimes we just recall our past sins of pleasure, and fixate on the pleasure of that occasion, re-living the vice in our minds. Our thought sins are particularily onerous to God. Who can go a week w/o commiting a thought sin ?

Now, are we all LINED UP on Sat. afternoon … for that short 3:30-4 pm confession offered by our Church … the single occasion of confession offered right before the 4PM Sat. Mass & the 3 Sunday masses ? Everytime I go for Confession … I’m either the only one there, or I encounter only 1-2 others. Are our Priests sleeping well each Sat. nite … knowing 99.9 % of their flock has probably committed a mortal that week, and not coming in to Confession ? Why has the Annual Confession become the Norm … for perhaps 20 % of Catholics, with the other 80 % not even making Confession annually ? Does your Priest give homilies on this matter ? Mine don’t !!!

Our only hope it to confess our sins AT ONCE to CHRIST … and be absolved of them by Him. And, to go FREQUENTLY to Confessional with our Priests … regardless of what others are doing. But, to make Confession every week … is certainly not practical … and our Priest seem to know it, and don’t admonish us for not doing so.

By the way … its become primarily Confession… since 2 out of 3 times the Priests Absolve us w/o giving ANY Penance !!! I even told Priest at my last confession I expected to receive Penance … and I got none. Its almost to the point we have to ask Christ to make us suffer for our faults, when we confess to him … so as to help us break bad habits and form better habits.

Am I wrong in my conclusions … as a new Catholic learning Catholic reality ?
 
I understand the criteria, but as to working that out 🤷
It seems to be subject to the conviction of conscience of the believer.

Its subject must be a grave (or serious) matter.
Who defines what is grave? The Church, or the conscience of the believer?

It must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense (no one is considered ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are inborn as part of human knowledge, but these principles can be misunderstood in a particular context).

Am I willingly, and knowingly going to do something and think “if I do this I’m going to hell”
Who determines the gravity of the sin, the Church or the believer?

It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin.

Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa!

Sure it’s possible to go to hell, but I can’t imagine for the life of me running around thinking “o’boy I better not do this or that, I might go to hell.” Whatever happen to Peace be with you and For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
We need to remember the history of the Western Church and how that effects they way in which she communicates. For Centuries the Church was not only the Spiritual guide but was a powerful civil authority as well.
I believe that is what has led her into this more “Legal” system of expressing teaching. Of course there is precedence for this in the ten commandments…“Thou Shall NOT…”

This manner of expression does not negate the truth of the Church’s teaching, but it has the unfortunate consequence of causing many people to look in the wrong direction as they try to move forward. Constantly looking at sin and what NOT to do, is like trying to walk the narrow path and enter the narrow gate while walking backwards. Looking at sin (and avoiding it) instead of looking at Love (and embracing it)
Absolutely, you would just end up in a religion of legalism instead of a religion of love!
I think your end quote says it all, quite honestly…PEACE! 👍👍
Thank you. Love Drives out fear. Turning to and truly embracing Love, does not negate these other things, it merely makes sin easier to avoid, easier to spot (sin is not love) and easier to make a judgement call on…The very things that you mention above in discerning what is serious/mortal sin is more easily answered when one embraces Agape Love.

Peace
James
 
Yes this would be “official”…The important thing with sin is to turn back to God as quickly as possible, Repent and be saved goes the line in the Bible.
Repenting, saying a sincere act of contrition and then, for serious sin, planning to get to confession ASAP is sufficient to prevent damnation should one die before they were able to get to confession.

Peace
James
Are all the Catholics who are following this thread in agreement with JRKH … and his advice/counsel here, on best way to Confess ?

ie: Daily to Christ {as Christ taught us to}, and on ‘as needed’ basis with our earthly Priests, but at least YEARLY, during Easter Season, as advised to the Church {by St. Thomas Aquinas} many, many years ago. It would seem the majority of Priests MUST see it this way. Otherwise, how could they sleep soundly at night, for fear their flock is in great peril ?

As JRKH has even earlier alluded to in another of his posts … ‘perfect Love IN CHRIST, drives out all fear’. The more we Love and Honor Christ, the less occasion we will have to fall into sin. Christ taught he came to SAVE the world, not to Judge it …and Paul teaches us we are to JUDGE ourselves, via our daily confessions to Christ, so as not to need Judgment by God in this world or the next. Christ bears our sins and sorrows to the Father, provided we rest in him, confess daily, and RECEIVE the Eucharist at least WEEKLY !!!

W/O the Eucharist, we have no LIFE [the WORD] within us… and will surely fall back into secular living once again. The cup being the ELIXER OF IMMORTALITY !!
 
:sad_yes: Way too many rules. We are in danger of being/becoming LEGALISTS [aka Pharisetical] … which Christ denounced, and whom he told they were not headed for Heaven.

We worry about the letter of the law, and not the ‘spirit’ of it. Protestants definately sleep sounder at night, with less guilt. When Catholics tell me they have no Salvation Assurance … if gives me serious pause, that we could doubt our Sealing IN CHRIST !!!
Pharisees weren’t condemned for legalism, they were condemned because they were hypocrits… they didn’t practice what they taught.[Mt 23:23…] Jesus also said, "do whatever they (i.e. the Pharisees) say because they sit on Moses seat… ".[Mt 23:1…]

As it turned out, Jesus gave Peter the keys to the Kingdom of God. iow, the scribes and Pharisees got fired. That didn’t mean however there were no more rules and regs to follow. Now it is the Church He builds on Peter that is the one to follow. Can’t you just hear Jesus say, “Do whatever the popes say because they sit on Peter’s chair?” 😉
 
Mortal sin is always from a grave matter, but not all grave matters are mortal sins.

As to your statement that stealing a pencil is not grave matter, I agree that stealing a pencil is likely a venial sin, but it’s still a grave matter.
.
[heavily snipped]

This 👍.

I have noticed that people occasionally conflate these terms and ideas and skip the middle analysis, which is what has happened above. you can’t skip over “theft” and go directly to “pencil”.

You start at “theft”. the analysis is clear that this is a grave matter. then and only then can you move to the situational analysis of what was stolen, from whom, by whom and for what purpose.
 
Saying grave matter and mortal sin are the same thing, is like saying tobacco and tobacco cigarettes are the same. While a tobacco cigarette is always made up of tobacco, not all tobacco goes into cigarettes. The same with grave matter and mortal sin. Mortal sin is always from a grave matter, but not all grave matters are mortal sins.
In the natural order,
  • grave = the place where the dead are buried…correct?
  • If a soldier is said to have suffered a mortal wound on the battlefield, that’s the sensitive way of saying, he died on the battlefield.
b:
As to your statement that stealing a pencil is not grave matter, I agree that stealing a pencil is likely a venial sin, but it’s still a grave matter.
I think you’re refering to this passage from the CCC …lest serious matter vs grave matter.

**1862 **One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

I think you will agree, Ignorance can always give wiggle room, but as you will see later, down the page, feigned ignorance covers nothing, and actually boosts one’s guilt. iow in reality, it’s not impossible, but it’s not easy either, to play the ignorance card and have it real.

for example:

**1791 **ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.
b:
Does that mean that everything stolen, which by the Catechism IS a grave sin, is a mortal sin? No. We have clear examples in the Catechism ( a poor man starving to death etc) whereby the sin is reduced, even removed. Grave does not always equal mortal, but mortal is always grave.
Again, In the natural order, grave and mortal deal with the reality of death. If you put someone in a grave they better be dead. If someone on the battlefield died due to their wound(s) they are said to have sustained a mortal wound.

In the spiritual order, the soul can’t die. It’s immortal. But sanctifying grace and charity in the soul can die. That’s the area we’re speaking of.

definitionally,

**1859 **Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

For example:

Unless someone has had no involvement in any society on this planet, they’ve heard fornication, adultery are wrong i.e. sinful. Catholics, Protesatants, Jews, Muslims, for example know these are an offense to God’s law. Are these sins grave matter? Yep! Are they committed with personal choice? Everyday…Yes? ergo mortal sin, is easy to commit.

using grave and mortal in the same sentence

**2484 **The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.

**2539 **Envy is a capital sin. It refers to the sadness at the sight of another’s goods and the immoderate desire to acquire them for oneself, even unjustly. When it wishes grave harm to a neighbor it is a mortal sin:
 
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