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steve_b
Guest
Protestants have [1 Jn 5:16…]in their bibles, so they have a problem when it comes to what to do with mortal sin.
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brb3
Guest
Your 1 Jn 5:16 … deals with ANY ONE [laity or clergy] … being able to ask the Lord to forgive his brother/sister of venial sins. But, isn’t it odd that it says "and God will give him LIFE, for those whose sin is NOT MORTAL. Tell me why God is giving LIFE … for venial sins ? This verse keeps stumping me !!! LIFE puts the sin in the MORTAL realm. Maybe you fully grasp what is being said here by St. John.
But, look at verses 14-15 … And this is the confidence which we have in him, that if WE ASK ANYTHING ACCORDING TO HIS WILL he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in WHATEVER WE ASK, we KNOW that we HAVE OBTAINED THE REQUESTS MADE OF HIM.
These verses are ‘named and claimed’ by Protestants … to allow them to Confess all mortals and venials to Christ … and be assured of forgiveness !
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steve_b
Guest
.
brb:
Since venial sin wounds and isn’t deadly by definition, fixing wounds can be equated with life also.
brb:
brb:
"I do not say that one is to pray for that"
Who specifically is the “one” that John is talking about?
2 people are in these passages
· the offender who needs to be sorry for their sins or they aren’t forgiven
· someone other than the offender, interseeding in prayer for the offender.
Don’t we have to include both since both are in the passages? That’s why John says,
( I do not say that one is to pray for the forgiveness of mortal sins.). for both people
That’s why the Church says
**1457 **According to the Church’s command, “after having attained the age of discretion, each of the faithful is bound by an obligation faithfully to confess serious sins at least once a year.” Anyone who is aware of having committed a mortal sin must not receive Holy Communion, even if he experiences deep contrition, without having first received sacramental absolution, unless he has a grave reason for receiving Communion and there is no possibility of going to confession. Children must go to the sacrament of Penance before receiving Holy Communion for the first time.
that’s part of it. But it includes the sinner praying for themself also…right? If a sinner isn’t sorry for their sins, won’t repent, does God forgive them anyway? I don’t recall God doing that in scripture…agreed?
Re: life…
Since venial sin wounds and isn’t deadly by definition, fixing wounds can be equated with life also.
venial sin while not deadly, still makes us spiritually sick and weak. Forgiveness of venial sin, spiritually speaking, returns the soul to the fullness of life and strength…
The verse I’m focusing on is,
"I do not say that one is to pray for that"
Who specifically is the “one” that John is talking about?
2 people are in these passages
· the offender who needs to be sorry for their sins or they aren’t forgiven
· someone other than the offender, interseeding in prayer for the offender.
Don’t we have to include both since both are in the passages? That’s why John says,
( I do not say that one is to pray for the forgiveness of mortal sins.). for both people
That’s why the Church says
**1457 **According to the Church’s command, “after having attained the age of discretion, each of the faithful is bound by an obligation faithfully to confess serious sins at least once a year.” Anyone who is aware of having committed a mortal sin must not receive Holy Communion, even if he experiences deep contrition, without having first received sacramental absolution, unless he has a grave reason for receiving Communion and there is no possibility of going to confession. Children must go to the sacrament of Penance before receiving Holy Communion for the first time.
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Philthy
Guest
I asked for a clarification of what you meant by “we” and “directly” in your request.Sorry, but I asked you to cite a scriptural source to justify.
Which you could not …
I don’t believe there is a verse that says “Phil and brb3 can’t approach Jesus directly” - I’ll have to concede that point, as meaningless as it is to do so. You and I don’t approach Jesus “directly” because He is no longer walking around on earth in a recognizable way.
Furthermore, no verses of Scripture include our names as the subject of a “we” verse because we didnt exist when those Scriptures were written.
You’re turn: do you have a verse that says you and I are to come to Jesus “directly” for the forgiveness of sins?
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brb3
Guest
Thats an easy one Philthy … //// Psalms 32:1-6
Blessed is HE whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputes no iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit. WHEN I DECLARED NOT MY SIN, my body wasted away through my groaning all day long. For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me; my strength was dried up as by the heat of summer. I ACKNOWLEDGED MY SIN TO THEE, and I did not hide my iniquity; I SAID, " I WILL CONFESS MY TRANSGRESSION TO THE LORD"; THEN THOU DIDST FORGIVE guilt of my sin. Therefore, LET EVERONE WHO IS GODLY OFFER PRAYER TO THEE;
Protestant & Catholic Proof-text … beyond dispute
Any priest will conceed this fact !!!It’s not an Either / Or scenario. Its Both / And. Confess first to the Lord [our High Priest], and then to our Church Priest … ASAP.
Consider also David’s murder & adultery mortal sins. In this case David was blinded to his sins … and did not confess promptly to the Lord. So, the Lord sent Nathan to David with Judgment. After Nathan convicted David of his sins David said:
2 Samuel 12:13-14 David said to Nathan, “I HAVE SINNED AGAINST THE LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “THE LORD ALSO HAS PUT AWAY YOUR SIN; YOU SHALL NOT DIE. Nevertheless, because by this deed YOU HAVE UTTERLY SCORNED THE LORD, the child that is born to you shall die.”
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Philthy
Guest
I don’t find this a proof text of what we - that is you and I in the NT era - have been discussing: whether one should seek sacramental absolution for mortal sin. But let’s take a look at it and see if it says what you claimed it would say that, “we” are supposed to confess our sins “directly” to Jesus, since that was your claim …Thats an easy one Philthy … //// Psalms 32:1-6Protestant & Catholic Proof-text … beyond dispute
So, what we have here is an individual who has confessed a sin to God and who was forgiven of it. Great, of course, but this does not say that “we” are to do so, and it doesnt say that we are to do so directly, and Jesus is not mentioned.
This also doesnt say what you claimed: that WE are to do likewise. It says that those who are godly are to offer prayer to God; that’s great and proper, of course, but offering prayer and confessing mortal sin are slightly different, and this is during an era when sacramental absolution was not available to people. So while I entirely agree that we should confess all our sins directly to God, I also believe that when we are conscious of grave sin we should seek absolution by means of sacramental confession.
No one has ever denied this, but you have - IMHO - minimized the importance of sacramental confession. It started several posts ago when you made these comments:
And this…
Followed by this “conclusion”
Followed by this undermining of a Priests authority and discretion in giving absolution…
You seem schizophrenic here: You started off pointing out that Christ has already paid the price (ie pain) for our transgressions, but you feel the need to pay a price as well and expect some imposed pain from the Priest . It doesnt really add up.
Followed by this brief reflection:
Which has led to the current discussion. I say you are mostly right but wrong in several respects.
First off, your whining about the availability of confession is completely inconsistent with my experience, and sounds, to me, like you are making excuses. There are plenty of priests around and I have never, NEVER EVER been told, “You have to wait until Saturday for Confession.” Hearing confessions is what Priests * like* to do: just call the Rectory and ask to arrange for confession. Talk to the Priest just before - or after - Mass - any Mass, which is offered every single day. They’ll be there for you - it’s not a big deal, they do it all the time. I’ve even just shown up at the Rectory and said, “can you hear my confession?” and they have. My guess is that you have assumed that simply because there is a schedule for REGULAR confessions that there is no opportunity at any other time.
Secondly, I think you are wrong in minimizing the importance of seeking sacramental confession in addition to having contrition and approaching God in prayer. There is a reason God established the Sacrament of Confession and a reason he empowered his Apostles to forgive sins: He isn’t here for us to “directly” approach Him the way He was here during his earthly lifetime to be “directly” approached. Those who did so had and assurance - through His voice, His eyes and His miracles - to know that they were forgiven. They were able to know it outside of themselves, tangibly. While we have access to grace upon grace - and I don’t mean to belittle our access to Christ - it is slightly different now than it was when He walked the earth and could be approached “directly”.
blessings
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brb3
Guest
Philthy …
the above is Proof Text beyond dispute ! David, and you / I … must judge/convict ourselves at Confession and accept/endure the penance given out. And, you / I … just like David, must confess BOTH to Christ & to our Church Priest.
David judges himself [belatedly, I’ll grant you that]
Then Nathan the Prophet = priest, in the PERSON of CHRIST] conveys the Lord’s absolution of David’s MORTAL sin to him
Finally, the penance is given out, which David later hopes he can reverse, by appeal of to the Lord via personal prayer]
David grieves mightily, emotional gut-wrenching agony … yet the penance CAN’T BE REVERSED, and the child dies.
The word Lord used in 2 Samuel … is the 2nd person /// Christ. Because David, like you / I, confess and receive absolution, via Christ & his ministers. We also know this because Jesus made reference in Mark 12:35-37 to David’s meaning of the word Lord…
[And as Jesus taught in the temple, he said, “How can the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? David himself, INSPIRED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, declared, ‘The Lord said to MY LORD, Sit at my right hand, till I put thy enemies under thy feet.’ DAVID himself CALLS HIM LORD; …” ] Christ referencing Ps. 110:1
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brb3
Guest
The Righteous Jews of OT times were Children of God … and godly, via promise, circumcision, faith, confession, obdience to the law, and looking forward to their Messiah/King.
We in NT times are likewise godly, via Baptismal rebirths,confirmation, faith, hope, love {obedience to Beatitude Law}, confession , and having living relationship IN CHRIST.
We’re absolved of sin just as David, via obedience to the living WORD, and his ministers… and making contrite, full confession … and receiving the Gift of Grace for our errs.
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Philthy
Guest
I disagree. You are projecting into the text things that simply aren’t there - namely the “we” part which you stipulated in your original request. And mind you, I don’t disagree with what you say below, its just that the verses you cited don’t develop the ideas to the extent that you believe they do.
Yes, I know. The only question that remains is why you seemed to be dismissive of Sacramental absolution in earlier posts and why you haven’t responded to my pointing that out to you. In short, you seem to have changed your tune a bit…
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brb3
Guest
In short, you seem to have changed your tune a bit…
Yes … in last several weeks I’ve reexamined Confession, Eucharist, & Purgatory topics. And, I’ve discovered evidence in OT, NT, and ECF’s that makes them OBLIGATORY for us. I used to believe that an annual visit to the Priest [the St. Thomas standard] was sufficient for confession of mortals. It seemed our current Church ‘tradition’ allowed us weekly receipt of the Eucharist, with an annual confession … provided we privately confessed to the Lord before the Eucharist, and publicly confessed via the Confiteor, before receipt of the Cup. I believed the Eucharist could heal us of ALL SINS, on weekly basis.
But, a number of you ‘corrected’ my understandings. So, I saw priest several weeks ago … and did what the Lord had David do … in regards to his mortals. And, amazingly … I haven’t commited a mortal for 3 weeks
. No more invincible ignorance avenue for me on this dogma. So, now I won’t be missing Mass. I need the Elixer of Immortality, on regular basis … it has ‘presevered’ me from the mortals. But, when I do eventually slip … I’ll do same as David did. Confess to Lord & to his Priest. First to the Lord, and then ASAP with the Priest.
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Philthy
Guest
Yes … in last several weeks I’ve reexamined Confession, Eucharist, & Purgatory topics. And, I’ve discovered evidence in OT, NT, and ECF’s that makes them OBLIGATORY for us. I used to believe that an annual visit to the Priest [the St. Thomas standard] was sufficient for confession of mortals. It seemed our current Church ‘tradition’ allowed us weekly receipt of the Eucharist, with an annual confession … provided we privately confessed to the Lord before the Eucharist, and publicly confessed via the Confiteor, before receipt of the Cup. I believed the Eucharist could heal us of ALL SINS, on weekly basis.
But, a number of you ‘corrected’ my understandings. So, I saw priest several weeks ago … and did what the Lord had David do … in regards to his mortals. And, amazingly … I haven’t commited a mortal for 3 weeks
Awesome post!I’m glad - truly - to hear that you have new found strength in your armor against sins that have previously caused you to stumble. I know how that feels as well, and I pray that you come to know that you can develop - by grace - those seeds into true habits of change that will make you look back in wonder and awe at what God, in His Mercy, has done for you.
I believe your zeal for Christ and your staunch defense of God’s Mercy is commendable and that we need more like you not only in the pulpit, but in the pews as well. I’ll also take this opportunity to apologize for my typical grumpy, pushy and demanding posts. Please forgive me. I am grateful to have a sibling in Christ such as yourself standing up and speaking honestly while also being truly open to change. We can all learn and benefit from that - I know I have.
Blessings!
BTW - there’s a great song (depends on your taste) on the Psalm you quoted by Pastor Brad Chase called “Blessed is He” here:
madisongcc.org/index.php/abour-our-church/church-music.html
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onemortal
Guest
@brb3
Brother,
There is a lot of truth out there for those willing to seek out and find it. It is available to you in the very bible itself with no outside source necessary for interpretation other than asking God to open your mind, heart, and soul to His wisdom and understanding. His Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth.
That being said, you are saved by faith, and faith alone. I do not want to step on your toes or anyone else here, but that is the simple truth of the matter. It is written.
While we are bound in our flesh we are subject to sin. Only through belief and faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, can we be freed. Does this mean we will ultimately stop sinning? No. That is impossible.
Romans 3:23, Ephesians 2:8
When Jesus spoke of this is my flesh, this is my blood, he spoke spiritually. Did the thief on the cross go to hell because he was unable to attend a mass, or unable to do X Y Z? No. His faith, and his faith alone, saved him.
If you wish to read more than I could possibly reiterate (and I would not want to, for this article alone has already been written extremely well on the issue) then I would direct you to godandscience.org/doctrine/eucharist.html
Me, you, and the rest of the world will never be fully escaped from sin until we are delivered from this prison of flesh and stand with our Lord Jesus Christ. We will fall, we will stumble, and this is why Jesus died for us. Jesus Christ is our intercessor now, he is our advocate (1 John 2:1). If you never stepped foot into a building more commonly regarded as a church, you would not be saved any less than you are now through FAITH. You alone are able to approach our Father through prayer in repentance and ask for forgiveness. It will be given to you, and all sins will be remembered no more. (Hebrews 8:12).
If you wish to live by one law, you must abide by all law, and you will be subject to all law as you make yourself subject to one law. Galatians 3 in its entirety will be a really good read for you.
Have you ever wondered why Jesus cleared the temple of money-changers? Because they were plaguing the very thing they were supposed to be keeping holy. They were attempting to profit for themselves what they were appointed to do as a means of covering peoples sin. They were seeking flesh, instead of Spirit.
If Jesus was not the only way to get to heaven, then He lied. Repeatadly. Trust God when he tells you that faith and faith alone saves you, not mass, not elixirs, not bread, not wearing a special red hat or attending a particular service once a week.
There’s nothing wrong with communion. There’s nothing wrong with fellowship. Just remember that the true Church of Christ is worldwide, in all of us. We are all part of His church. Jesus is with us always, not just while at communion that takes place down the street inside the building that people refer to as their church.
God bless.
Brother,
There is a lot of truth out there for those willing to seek out and find it. It is available to you in the very bible itself with no outside source necessary for interpretation other than asking God to open your mind, heart, and soul to His wisdom and understanding. His Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth.
That being said, you are saved by faith, and faith alone. I do not want to step on your toes or anyone else here, but that is the simple truth of the matter. It is written.
While we are bound in our flesh we are subject to sin. Only through belief and faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, can we be freed. Does this mean we will ultimately stop sinning? No. That is impossible.
Romans 3:23, Ephesians 2:8
When Jesus spoke of this is my flesh, this is my blood, he spoke spiritually. Did the thief on the cross go to hell because he was unable to attend a mass, or unable to do X Y Z? No. His faith, and his faith alone, saved him.
If you wish to read more than I could possibly reiterate (and I would not want to, for this article alone has already been written extremely well on the issue) then I would direct you to godandscience.org/doctrine/eucharist.html
Me, you, and the rest of the world will never be fully escaped from sin until we are delivered from this prison of flesh and stand with our Lord Jesus Christ. We will fall, we will stumble, and this is why Jesus died for us. Jesus Christ is our intercessor now, he is our advocate (1 John 2:1). If you never stepped foot into a building more commonly regarded as a church, you would not be saved any less than you are now through FAITH. You alone are able to approach our Father through prayer in repentance and ask for forgiveness. It will be given to you, and all sins will be remembered no more. (Hebrews 8:12).
If you wish to live by one law, you must abide by all law, and you will be subject to all law as you make yourself subject to one law. Galatians 3 in its entirety will be a really good read for you.
Have you ever wondered why Jesus cleared the temple of money-changers? Because they were plaguing the very thing they were supposed to be keeping holy. They were attempting to profit for themselves what they were appointed to do as a means of covering peoples sin. They were seeking flesh, instead of Spirit.
If Jesus was not the only way to get to heaven, then He lied. Repeatadly. Trust God when he tells you that faith and faith alone saves you, not mass, not elixirs, not bread, not wearing a special red hat or attending a particular service once a week.
There’s nothing wrong with communion. There’s nothing wrong with fellowship. Just remember that the true Church of Christ is worldwide, in all of us. We are all part of His church. Jesus is with us always, not just while at communion that takes place down the street inside the building that people refer to as their church.
God bless.
F
fred_conty
Guest
PabloSD,
You said you have anxieties not that you didn’t seem to have before because of a one mortal sin taught by the
catholic church is enough to warrant hell. Of course that is true. But you must understand why.
As a catholic we believe the life of the Holy Spirit is living in our soul. What a great thought and truth. God loves us
so much that he wants to dwell within us as he did in the tabernacle of the old testament. The holy of holies is within you.
Therefore, when we sin in a serious way, we are violating our temple where he lives, making it an unholy dwelling place and not fit for his presence any longer. It is like blowing out a candle. It only takes one breeze to blow it out, not many.
And so also with his presence within us, the first violation of consequence drives out the Holy Spirit. This holds true for any
serious sin. The serious sins following the first do not drive him out, but add to the consequences we must pay for our continuous unholy actions.
The loving intention of the Holy Spirit is that He abide with us always and to be a part of us. Each and every time we do something good in his name, his life within us increaces and we thereby grow more and more into his image and likeness.
Since we should always be pursuing his will and living in him, at the end of life, we will simply continue that life of living in him in the next life according the growth we attained with him in this life. He is with us always to the very end, to comfort us, to strengthen us, to guide us, and so much more, so that we may attain the great happiness he wants to bless us with.
You must always keep in mind the holy one you have within you, just as Mary had in mind Jesus within her.
Concentrate on the holy one with you and love he has for you.
P
pabloSD
Guest
Thank you, Fred Conty, for bringing back the thread to my original question…En Cristo,
Pablo
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steve_b
Guest
:clapping::extrahappy::bowdown2::hug1:Yes … in last several weeks I’ve reexamined Confession, Eucharist, & Purgatory topics. And, I’ve discovered evidence in OT, NT, and ECF’s that makes them OBLIGATORY for us. I used to believe that an annual visit to the Priest [the St. Thomas standard] was sufficient for confession of mortals. It seemed our current Church ‘tradition’ allowed us weekly receipt of the Eucharist, with an annual confession … provided we privately confessed to the Lord before the Eucharist, and publicly confessed via the Confiteor, before receipt of the Cup. I believed the Eucharist could heal us of ALL SINS, on weekly basis.
But, a number of you ‘corrected’ my understandings. So,* I saw priest several weeks ago … and did what the Lord had David do … in regards to his mortals. And, amazingly … I haven’t commited a mortal for 3 weeks
S
Spirithound
Guest
One of the biggest problems with our society today is the idea that guilt and fear are bad emotions. They’re not. Guilt tells you when you’ve done something bad, and fear tells you not to do something bad.
When you’re comparing Catholic doctrine with LDS or Protestant doctrine, you need to compare them against an absolute truth. Which Church matches up with the truth? I am Catholic because I believe that the Catholic Church teaches true doctrine. Consequently, any feelings of security or ease I might have been allowed if I followed Protestant or LDS doctrine, would be false emotions, and therefore not good indicators of truth.
In short, everybody is one mortal sin from hell. Most of them just don’t know it
K
kdub432
Guest
Back to the OP’s post…
Its not about how you “feel” about your religion or whether you “feel” any particular teaching is “unfair”. We’re trying to learn about the truth of God, not a system of thinking that makes us feel comfortable!
Its not about how you “feel” about your religion or whether you “feel” any particular teaching is “unfair”. We’re trying to learn about the truth of God, not a system of thinking that makes us feel comfortable!
C
Catherine_44
Guest
I think the statement’s only true if the person isn;t sorry for committing the mortal sin and doesn’t intend to confess it. It’s a person’s attitude that counts most.
I once asked a priest what happens if someone has committed a mortal sin and is on the way to the church to confess when they are killed (imagine they get run over by a bus or something like that) - would they still go to Heaven? He told me that they would, because their intention was to confess the mortal sin. It’s not their fault they didn’t actually get to the confessional.
I once asked a priest what happens if someone has committed a mortal sin and is on the way to the church to confess when they are killed (imagine they get run over by a bus or something like that) - would they still go to Heaven? He told me that they would, because their intention was to confess the mortal sin. It’s not their fault they didn’t actually get to the confessional.
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