"One of three"

[Jay53]

Rather, someone changed the Holy Spirit, who is the angel Gabriel, and said that it is part of God, that it is part of the trinity, when it never was. That is the misguided part. Only Christians follow that erroneous belief.

Please provide the source where the Holy Spirit is the Angel Gabriel - (obviously other than the Quran.) because I have never even heard this assertion until now. And I will clarify the Holy Spirit IS NOT the Angel Gabriel and the Angel Gabriel IS NOT part of the Trinity.

 

[geometer]

Jews believe the Holy Spirit is the Presence of God.

Jews call the presence of God in this world the shekina, and the Holy Spirit, the Ruach Kodesh is higher than this world, and is God.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Please provide the source where the Holy Spirit is the Angel Gabriel - (obviously other than the Quran.) because I have never even heard this assertion until now. And I will clarify the Holy Spirit IS NOT the Angel Gabriel and the Angel Gabriel IS NOT part of the Trinity.

Well the Trinity is an invention of Christianity is it not? Of course it is.

If you read in the Bible, especially in the Old Testament, you will come across the phrase, “the angel of the Lord.” That is Gabriel. If you need something else to make the connection, Isaiah 63 might help. Gabriel has been the angel of the Lord about whom you read in the Old Testament.

It wasn’t until Christianity that people jumped to another (false) conclusion to say that the “holy spirit” was God, and that Gabriel was not the holy spirit.

Or then again, maybe it was someone before Christianity that made the false jump.

Jews had a question about the spirit–they sent some questions to Muhammad about it. And the answer was revealed:

And they ask you (O Muhammad SAW) concerning the Ruh (the Spirit); Say: “The Ruh (the Spirit): it is one of the things, the knowledge of which is only with my Lord. And of knowledge, you (mankind) have been given only a little.” 17:85

 

[algebra]

Yes. In Islam, the Holy Spirit is another name for the Angel Gabriel.

No that is not true.

What would have been true is this - The angel Gabriel is referred to as a holy spirit of God in the quran.

I cant blame you for not knowing though, recent islamic scholarship is rather poor, and you are a product of that poor scholarship.

To really understand this islamic scholars of the past pored over the Talmud. Today no islamic scholar even bothers to know what Jewish rabbis of the past said.

Do yourself a favour and find out what the Holy Spirit really is, as per islam.
And do not make blatantly false posts about It.

It takes more than reading one tafsir to understand this…but its your religion so go for it.

 

[rk9414]

Ibn Abi Haatim narrated from Ahmad ibn Sinaan… Abu’l-Za’raa’ told us: ‘Abd-Allaah said: Rooh al-Qudus (“the Holy Spirit”) is Jibreel, then he said: something similar was narrated from Muhammad ibn Ka’b al-Qurazi, Qutaadah, ‘Atiyah al-‘Awfi, al-Saddi and al-Rabee’ ibn Anas.

This view is supported by the above and by the report narrated by the two Shaykhs al-Bukhaari and Muslim] with their isnaads from Abu Salamah ibn ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn ‘Awf, that he heard Hassaan ibn Thaabit al-Ansaari asking Abu Hurayrah to bear witness, “I ask you by Allaah, did you hear the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say, ‘O Hassaan, respond on behalf of the Messenger of Allaah. O Allaah, support him with Rooh al-Qudus’?” Abu Hurayrah said, “Yes.”

(al-Tafseer al-Masboor by Dr. Hikmat Basheer, 1/192-193)

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said: the majority of scholars said that this refers to Jibreel (peace be upon him), and that Allaah called him al-Rooh al-Ameen, Rooh al-Qudus and Jibreel.”

 

[Jay53]

Well the Trinity is an invention of Christianity is it not? Of course it is.

No, the Trinity is not an “invention” of Christianity. It is Christianity"s explanation of how God has revealed Himself to us.

If you read in the Bible, especially in the Old Testament, you will come across the phrase, “the angel of the Lord.” That is Gabriel. If you need something else to make the connection, Isaiah 63 might help. Gabriel has been the angel of the Lord about whom you read in the Old Testament.

I have no qualms agreeing that the Angel Gabriel is “an angel of the Lord”, (same as St. Michael, St. Raphael (archangels)) but I don’t think Isaiah 63 is referring to the Angel Gabriel - where do you get that interpretation?

It wasn’t until Christianity that people jumped to another (false) conclusion to say that the “holy spirit” was God, and that Gabriel was not the holy spirit. Or then again, maybe it was someone before Christianity that made the false jump.

Where is this jump made? I don’t see anyone going from “angel of the Lord” that is specifically referring to the Angel Gabriel to “Holy Spirit”?

Jews had a question about the spirit–they sent some questions to Muhammad about it. And the answer was revealed:

And they ask you (O Muhammad SAW) concerning the Ruh (the Spirit); Say: “The Ruh (the Spirit): it is one of the things, the knowledge of which is only with my Lord. And of knowledge, you (mankind) have been given only a little.” 17:85

Sorry, but I can’t go by anything Muhammad said to confirm Jewish or Christian scriptures - he didn’t appear to have a firm knowledge of either.

 

[algebra]

Gospel of Luke 1: 34-35 Quote

"How this will be,"Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” The angel answered, “The HOLY SPIRIT WILL COME UPON YOU, AND THE POWER OF THE MOST HIGH WILL OVERSHADOW YOU. So the Holy one to be born will be called THE SON OF GOD”.

Even a person with average intelligence can recognise that Angel GABRIEL is different than the HOLY SPIRIT.

“And Mary the daughter of 'Imran[sic], who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants).” (Qur’an 66:12)
Wamaryama ibnata AAimrana allatee ahsanat farjaha fanafakhna feehi min roohina wasaddaqat bikalimati rabbiha wakutubihi wakanat mina alqaniteena (Qur’an 66:12)

very obviously “of Our Spirit” here does not refer to the angel Gabriel.

Hence the only accurate thing one can say is that Gabriel is sometimes called a Holy Spirit in the Qur’an.

But Holy Spirit can also refer to God in some parts of the quran.

 

[Jay53]

This whole discussion has me thinking - do the majority of Muslims hold this view: that the Trinity is Father, Son, Angel Gabriel? Do they believe Christians think this is the Trinity and thus think the Angel Gabriel is part of the Trinity?

Why does Allah ask Jesus on the last day: “Did you tell people: Take me and my mother as gods besides Allah” instead of "Did you tell people: Take me and Angel Gabriel as gods besides Allah? It appears to me that Allah is focusing on a (alleged) small group of heretical Christians instead of all Christians who supposedly are worshipping the Angel Gabriel as the Holy Spirit.

God says in the Qur’an that He will ask Prophet Jesus (mercy and peace of God be upon him) on the Day of Judgment: “O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you tell people: Take me and my mother as gods besides Allah? Then he will say: Glory to you, I could never say what I had no right to say. If I had said it, You would have known it, You know what is within myself, but I do not know what is within Yourself. Verily, You alone are the Knower of the unseen. I did not say to them except what You commanded me; to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness over them as long as I was among them, but when You raised me up, You were the observer over them, and You are the witness over all things.” (5:116 - 117) miracles-of-allah.blogspot.com/

And, for Sister Amy - when you were a Christian, is that who you believed you were worshipping, Father, Son, Angel Gabriel?

 

[rk9414]

“And Mary the daughter of 'Imran[sic], who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants).” (Qur’an 66:12)
Wamaryama ibnata AAimrana allatee ahsanat farjaha fanafakhna feehi min roohina wasaddaqat bikalimati rabbiha wakutubihi wakanat mina alqaniteena (Qur’an 66:12)

very obviously “of Our Spirit” here does not refer to the angel Gabriel.

Hence the only accurate thing one can say is that Gabriel is sometimes called a Holy Spirit in the Qur’an.

But Holy Spirit can also refer to God in some parts of the quran.

As far as I have read, none of the classical scholars of Islam agree with this opinion you have stated.

 

[algebra]

As far as I have read, none of the classical scholars of Islam agree with this opinion you have stated.

Wait, dont tell me.

You have read all the opinions one finds on the internet, correct?

I am afraid that is not good enough, the verse I have provided is an example of how the words spirit can be used to refer to Gabriel, the power of God, and a whole host of other things.

To suggest that the Holy Spirit is Gabriel is simply false.

 

[jakasaki]

As far as I have read, none of the classical scholars of Islam agree with this opinion you have stated.

What is what the “classical scholars of islam” agree too regarding the Trinity

 

[Hadi]

Wait, dont tell me.

You have read all the opinions one finds on the internet, correct?

I am afraid that is not good enough, the verse I have provided is an example of how the words spirit can be used to refer to Gabriel, the power of God, and a whole host of other things.

To suggest that the Holy Spirit is Gabriel is simply false.

read 16:102

Say, the holy spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims

 

[jakasaki]

read 16:102

Say, the holy spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims

So Hadi - this is saying that the Holy Spirit is Gabriel, correct?

 

[Eucharisted]

So, what do you Muslims consider the Trinity? I understand that Mohammed followed Monarchianism, but what do you Muslims believe the Christian Trinity is?

Monarchianism is a Christian heresy that falls under three categories:

1. The heresy that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not three Persons but three different faces of God
2. The heresy that Jesus Christ is not the Son Incarnate but a man who became divine later in His life
3. The heresy that the Father is God, but the Son and the Holy Spirit are not divine

 

[Hadi]

So Hadi - this is saying that the Holy Spirit is Gabriel, correct?

no…read the verse yourself

 

[jakasaki]

no…read the verse yourself

Originally Posted by Hadi
read 16:102

Say, **the holy spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord **in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims

It’s been said that

1 - Gabriel gave mohamad the revelations (messages from allah)
2 - 16-102 states: the holy spirit has brought the revelation
3 - one can conclude that the holy spirit is Gabriel

Am I missing something?

 

[Hadi]

It’s been said that

1 - Gabriel gave mohamad the revelations (messages from allah)
2 - 16-102 states: the holy spirit has brought the revelation
3 - one can conclude that the holy spirit is Gabriel

Am I missing something?

First, There is no “The holy spirit” ,“the” is added by the translator…
in Arabic it literally says “spirit the holy” or “ruh alqudus” …so yes Gabriel is “holy spirit” but not “the holy spirit”

Second ,as Algebra mentioned , God’s spirit is not Gabriel …

so the reader should be careful when interpreting these terms found in the Quran

1- God’s spirit “ruhah”
2- holy spirit " ruh alqudus"
3-God’s “Sakinah”

 

[jakasaki]

QUOTE=Hadi;5217017]First, There is no "The holy spirit" ,“the” is added by the translator…
in Arabic it literally says “spirit the holy” or “ruh alqudus” …so yes Gabriel is “holy spirit” but not “the holy spirit”

~ ***snip ***~

The koran I use clearly states:

(4) Say, **the holy spirit **has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.
( سورة النحل , An-Nahl, Chapter #16, Verse #102)

102 Qul nazzalahu roohu alqudusi min rabbika bialhaqqi liyuthabbita allatheena amanoo wahudan wabushra lilmuslimeena

Tafsir:

[101-102] And when We send down one verse to elaborate upon the other-and Allah knows best what to send down, they say, "You forge this Qur’an yourself."102 The fact is that most of them do not know the reality. Tell them,** "The Holy Spirit **has brought it down piecemeal103 intact from my Lord so that He may make firm the faith of those who have believed,104 and to show the Right Way,105 and to give good news to those who surrender themselves to Allah."106

searchtruth.com

 

[algebra]

Quite correct Hadi.

There is no “The Holy Spirit” in islam. There are many references to Holy Spirits of God.

Of which we do not know much.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Gospel of Luke 1: 34-35 Quote

"How this will be,"Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” The angel answered, “The HOLY SPIRIT WILL COME UPON YOU, AND THE POWER OF THE MOST HIGH WILL OVERSHADOW YOU. So the Holy one to be born will be called THE SON OF GOD”.

Even a person with average intelligence can recognise that Angel GABRIEL is different than the HOLY SPIRIT.

“And Mary the daughter of 'Imran[sic], who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants).” (Qur’an 66:12)
Wamaryama ibnata AAimrana allatee ahsanat farjaha fanafakhna feehi min roohina wasaddaqat bikalimati rabbiha wakutubihi wakanat mina alqaniteena (Qur’an 66:12)

very obviously “of Our Spirit” here does not refer to the angel Gabriel.

Hence the only accurate thing one can say is that Gabriel is sometimes called a Holy Spirit in the Qur’an.

But Holy Spirit can also refer to God in some parts of the quran.

But it doesn’t.

Here is another translation of the verse you quoted:

And Maryam (Mary), the daughter of 'Imran who guarded her chastity; **and We breathed into (the sleeve of her shirt or her garment) through Our Ruh **, and she testified to the truth of the Words of her Lord *, and (also believed in) His Scriptures, and she was of the Qanitin (i.e. obedient to Allah).

That’s the Muhsin Khan translation of 66:12.***