"One of three"

[Sister_Amy]

This whole discussion has me thinking - do the majority of Muslims hold this view: that the Trinity is Father, Son, Angel Gabriel? Do they believe Christians think this is the Trinity and thus think the Angel Gabriel is part of the Trinity?

Why does Allah ask Jesus on the last day: “Did you tell people: Take me and my mother as gods besides Allah” instead of "Did you tell people: Take me and Angel Gabriel as gods besides Allah? It appears to me that Allah is focusing on a (alleged) small group of heretical Christians instead of all Christians who supposedly are worshipping the Angel Gabriel as the Holy Spirit.

And, for Sister Amy - when you were a Christian, is that who you believed you were worshipping, Father, Son, Angel Gabriel?

If you pick an average Muslim off the street and ask him about the Trinity, I can pretty much guarantee you that he’ll tell you the following:

(1) It doesn’t make any sense; I don’t really understand it.

and

(2) It’s God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost or something, whatever that is (note, they won’t say Gabriel)

Muslims who think that Mary is part of the Trinity are rare and simply misinformed. I am telling you that what Christians believe to be the Holy Spirit is actually Gabriel, even though Christians don’t believe that to be the case.

Note that frequently I make such claims, that just because Christians believe something doesn’t make that something true.

When I was a Christian, I worshiped God, I prayed to God, who you call the Father. I hardly ever prayed to Jesus, and never to the Holy Spirit.

 

[Sister_Amy]

It’s been said that

1 - Gabriel gave mohamad the revelations (messages from allah)
2 - 16-102 states: the holy spirit has brought the revelation
3 - one can conclude that the holy spirit is Gabriel

Am I missing something?

Looks to me like you’ve got it.

 

[Jay53]

If you pick an average Muslim off the street and ask him about the Trinity, I can pretty much guarantee you that he’ll tell you the following:

(1) It doesn’t make any sense; I don’t really understand it.

and

(2) It’s God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost or something, whatever that is (note, they won’t say Gabriel)

Muslims who think that Mary is part of the Trinity are rare and simply misinformed. I am telling you that what Christians believe to be the Holy Spirit is actually Gabriel, even though Christians don’t believe that to be the case.

But that is not true! The Holy Spirit has ALWAYS been God and has always been believed to be God. The only place I’ve seen it changed to the Angel Gabriel is by Muslims on this forum. Someone else quoted the Bible verse where the Angel Gabriel speaks of the Holy Spirit and obviously wasn’t speaking of himself.

Note that frequently I make such claims, that just because Christians believe something doesn’t make that something true.

That goes both ways. Just because Muhammad said something and Muslims believe something doesn’t make that something true. This is obviously a matter of faith. Muslims believe the Quran is from God; since it contradicts God’s previous Word, Christians obviously don’t believe that.

When I was a Christian, I worshiped God, I prayed to God, who you call the Father. I hardly ever prayed to Jesus, and never to the Holy Spirit.

When you prayed to God you were also praying to Jesus and the Holy Spirit since they are One.

Were you taught that the Trinity is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit was Gabriel? I’m just curious if you ever heard this before becoming a Muslim?

 

[algebra]

But it doesn’t.

Here is another translation of the verse you quoted:

And Maryam (Mary), the daughter of 'Imran who guarded her chastity; **and We breathed into (the sleeve of her shirt or her garment) through Our Ruh ****, and she testified to the truth of the Words of her Lord *, and (also believed in) His Scriptures, and she was of the Qanitin (i.e. obedient to Allah).

That’s the Muhsin Khan translation of 66:12.*

Junk!

How does muhsin khan translate this then?

“But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him** something of His spirit**, And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!” (Qur’an 32:9)
Thumma sawwahu wanafakha feehi min roohihi wajaAAala lakumu alssamAAa waalabsara waalafidata qaleelan ma tashkuroona (Qur’an 32:9)

Also here, He Allah (S) said: “When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of** My spirit**, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.” (Qur’an 38:72)
Faitha sawwaytuhu wanafakhtu feehi min roohee faqaAAoo lahu sajideena (Qur’an 38:72)

The fact of the matter is that there is no “The Holy Spirit” in islam. To suggest there is, and it refers specifically to Gabriel is simply not true.

 

[algebra]

That goes both ways. Just because Muhammad said something and Muslims believe something doesn’t make that something true. This is obviously a matter of faith. Muslims believe the Quran is from God; since it contradicts God’s previous Word, Christians obviously don’t believe that.

She does not know what she is talking about. There is no “The Holy Spirit” in islam.

Muhammad never said that “The Holy Spirit” is Gabriel.

Rather - that Gabriel is a holy spirit of God.

 

[algebra]

On an aside you might want to pay attention to the various different translations of 66:12 by muslims.

It interesting to note that recent translators have begun to translate verses differently when the quran has been attacked on a particular point.

Note that the idea that there is a Holy Spirit and it is Gabriel is a new concept in islam.

Traditionally as it has been in judaism, the Holy Spirit was always seen as the presence of God.

However as muslim apologists developed defenses for islam, the translations have changed to support those defenses.

One of the defenses against Christianity is the complete separation of Creator and creation.

Amy has been gracious in providing an fantastic example of this.

And Maryam (Mary), the daughter of 'Imran who guarded her chastity; and **We breathed into (the sleeve of her shirt or her garment) through Our Ruh , and she testified to the truth of the Words of her Lord *, and (also believed in) His Scriptures, and she was of the Qanitin (i.e. obedient to Allah).

vs.

And Mary the daughter of 'Imran[sic], who guarded her chastity; and** We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit*** and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants)." (Qur’an 66:12)**

 

[Reuben_J]

If you pick an average Muslim off the street and ask him about the Trinity, I can pretty much guarantee you that he’ll tell you the following:

(1) It doesn’t make any sense; I don’t really understand it.

Not surprising, nothing new and what I’ve been thinking all along.

This says it all.

The “I don’t really understand it” began with allah, angel gabriel, mohammad and the quran - a long line of ignorance and inherited by Muslims until today.

 

[algebra]

The “I don’t really understand it” began with allah, angel gabriel, mohammad and the quran - a long line of ignorance and inherited by Muslims until today.

No, Amy is confused in what she is saying. She is not portraying the correct islamic view.

What she is posting is what she has learned from apologists and internet shaykhs.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

Sister Amy, Before you became Muslim, when you read about the Holy Spirit coming on the apostles on Pentecost in the form of a loud wind and fire, did you think this was God coming to them or the Angel Gabriel?

 

[tomarin]

The “I don’t really understand it” began with allah, angel gabriel, mohammad and the quran - a long line of ignorance and inherited by Muslims until today.

They also have a fundamental doctrine called tawhid, or oneness which states that God is one. They see the Trinity as a violation of that doctrine. So I think it’s fair to say their opposition to Christianity is a prinicpled one (even if it is mistaken), not a product of ignorance or lack of thought. I think this is one reason why historically, it’s been very difficult to convert Muslims (and Jews) to Christianity.

 

[algebra]

They also have a fundamental doctrine called tawhid, or oneness which states that God is one. They see the Trinity as a violation of that doctrine.

True, Tawhid does stand in opposition to the Trinity.

However that is not the point. The point is that the Trinity itself is not understood by muslims.

In fact the core difference between islam and christianity is the difference in the understanding of sin.

In christianity sin is an act that sunders the connection between man and God. Sin is an integral part of mans existence. It is not possible for a man to be sinless.

In islam sin is an act of disobedience given that God has spelled out the law. It is possible for a man to live a sinless life, if he follows the quran and sunnah exactly.

 

[Eucharisted]

True, Tawhid does stand in opposition to the Trinity.

However that is not the point. The point is that the Trinity itself is not understood by muslims.

In fact the core difference between islam and christianity is the difference in the understanding of sin.

In christianity sin is an act that sunders the connection between man and God. Sin is an integral part of mans existence. It is not possible for a man to be sinless.

In islam sin is an act of disobedience given that God has spelled out the law. It is possible for a man to live a sinless life, if he follows the quran and sunnah exactly.

Your understanding of sin is incorrect. Jesus is a man and He is sinless.

 

[tomarin]

True, Tawhid does stand in opposition to the Trinity.

However that is not the point. The point is that the Trinity itself is not understood by muslims.

 

[ilealj]

Trinity comes from the gentiles, and Jesus said that gentiles are to be treated like tax collectors…

You mean Jesus is going to call me to follow him and eat at my home because I’m a gentile? That is fantastic news!

 

[adriancombe]

Clearly some misguided “Christian,” trying to make God 3-in-1.

Christianity as you know it today is not the be-all end-all of religious beliefs. Perhaps it is a flaw, especially of modern Catholics, that because they have such a long church history and tradition, they think that all Christians always believed what they now believe.

Actually, in Sura 5:116, the Quran shows that it does not even understand the Trinity, describing it as Jesus, Mary and God. Therefore, God, who is all-knowing, could not have written the Quran.

 

[elwill]

Actually, in Sura 5:116, the Quran shows that it does not even understand the Trinity, describing it as Jesus, Mary and God. Therefore, God, who is all-knowing, could not have written the Quran.

but this verse not talking about trinity

 

[adriancombe]

but this verse not talking about trinity

That is technically logically equivalent to my statement - but I doubt that is what you meant.

The verse in question attempts to debunk a purported belief of Christianity that Mary, Jesus and God are equal. Since there is not now, nor was there at any time such a doctrine, and since the same statement would be an understanding of the Trinity if you substituted the Holy Spirit for Mary, it is obvious this verse reflects a misunderstanding of the Trinity. And this understanding has been confirmed by at least on Muslim convert to the Catholic faith.

 

[elwill]

That is technically logically equivalent to my statement - but I doubt that is what you meant.

The verse in question attempts to debunk a purported belief of Christianity that Mary, Jesus and God are equal. Since there is not now, nor was there at any time such a doctrine, and since the same statement would be an understanding of the Trinity if you substituted the Holy Spirit for Mary, it is obvious this verse reflects a misunderstanding of the Trinity. And this understanding has been confirmed by at least on Muslim convert to the Catholic faith.

you want to believe that it’s refer to trinity , it’s oky
but the fact still stands that it dosn’t talking about trinity nor muslims understands it to be refering to trinity
bring the verse verse and show me what it says

 

[planten]

The Holy Spirit has never been the angel Gabriel. I think someone else mentioned that on these forums as well and I honestly have no idea where anyone got that idea. Is this something mentioned in the Quran?

**Yes, definitely. There is mention of Holy Spirit in the Quran. That is the messenger Angel who brings messages. That is gabriel. It was same angel who brought the good news to Mary, the mother.

It is the same messenger angel who had been bringing messages from God to all prophets.

I have been asking here on the net about “How was Jesus getting messages from God (The Father).” Nobody is replying. It is written in the Quran very clearly “And We gave clear signs to Isa (Jesus) and We aided him with the Holy Spirit.” (Al-Quran verse 2:253)

That holy spirit in Quran is the angel. An angel is mentioned in bibleOT and NT too as bringing messages. I hope the Catholics agree that an angel used to bring messages to the prophets. If they do not agree then they should tell how were the israeli prophets getting messages of God. They used to say “So says God of Israel…” How did they know what the God of Israel was saying??

I will come back with another post to help the Catholics come to a right understanding about son and Holy spirit.**

 

[planten]

Euchristed wrote:

Do Christians believe God is a third of three? Let’s find out together.

Christians believe God is One in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each Person is God,

**May I say that the above is the belief of the christians. I need not amend it. But it is clear from the above that God is One in three persons who each are god, each one of them. How come?? It is a riddle.

The Jews and the Muslims never go near such things. So the Catholics can have their God composed of three godly persons or in other words, only two other godly persons because One of them is already a God. Or we can say that God, The One God is The Father, The son and The Holy Spirit. So these three gods will make One God.

It is a big problem to the Unitarian faith which was the corner stone of all previous faiths before the idea of trinity came to be preached. WE have to believe that God is composed of three persons who are themsleves as Gods. Or, at least they are partners with the great God.**

Jesus did say:

Matthew 28:18-25
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

**Jay, the matter had been explained about the son and the holy spirit in some other thread. We Muslims have the name of Muhammad as a servant and messenger of Allah. WE do not believe that Muhammad is a god beside Allah.

The name of Muhammad the messenger is for ever attached with the name of Allah. Nobody can separate that name from the name of God. But it does not mean that Muhammad is a god.

That also makes sure that we do not make God out of Muhammad. It is constant safety for the Muslim nation not to make a man into a God no matter how much they rever and love him.

It was a similar case for the Jews to go ahead and preach in the name of God (Father) and in the name of son (Jesus) and in the name of Holy Spirit (The angel who aided Jesus).

It was not to make the son and the angel as God. When preaching, it is necessary to tell:

1. From where the message is coming?
2. Who is preaching it, i.e. who had received the message from God?
3. Who had brought the message?

All these things are necessary to be told. For That, we Muslism have 'There is no God except Allah. Muhammad is the messenger of Allah." It tells everything what the message is and who has got the message and preached it. We also have the Holy Spirit (Angel Gabriel). But we do not mention him in our Kalimah.

It is enough to say that “Muhmmad is the messenger of Allah.”

Similarly, Jesus told the people (The Jews) to preach in the name of One and in the name of Jesus and Gabriel. But it did not mean to make a god out of Jesus and the angel. Surely not. Otherwise there was no harm in preaching in the name of Jesus too and mentioning the name of angel too.

Each one could be in its place, i.e. The Father,The son and the Holy spirit. No harm at all, to preach in the name of God and Jesus and Holy Spirit.

We know Jesus never clearly said that he was god. I hope he never said that Holy spirit was a god. So where do the Catholics go from here?
**