One Pro life argument - does miscarriage mean the greatest abortionist is God?

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

There are researchers who study early embryonic development and fertility specialists who study and try to find the root causes and preventions for miscarriages. More and more information is added all the time to the body of knowledge.
Just like there are researchers in other fields of medicine.

But…you do know that everybody can’t be a scientist…right? Somebody has to grow the food, build the homes, police the streets, fight the fires, teach the children…

 

[Boler]

when you get a bad painting do you blame the painting or the painter for doing a shoddy job?

Paint doesn’t have free will. You’ve simplified your opponent’s argument to a bad analogy and then attacked it.

 

[Verdanty]

Neither do we in some respects. I mean, put it this way. God made you intentionally knowing exactly what you would do. You were explicitly designed with this fate in mind. God could have chosen to alter the experiences that would shape you as a person and adapt your genetics/hormones to better supplement a specific mindset and personality but he didn’t.

If God is omniscient and omnipotent, then every aspect of his plan has been carefully selected and is within his power to set as it pleases him. Your will is at best a bullet; where the deity loads it and points it where he wants it to go before pressing the trigger. You move certainly, but after prompt in which your control is not absolute.

Free will cannot logically exist with an omniscient and omnipotent God. Life is like a big game of The Sims with one mind behind the whole enterprise.

 

[Boler]

If God is omniscient and omnipotent, then every aspect of his plan has been carefully selected and is within his power to set as it pleases him.

And it pleases him to have made us in his image and likeness, with free will, as opposed to the robots you characterize us as. Love does not exist without free will. It is a heartless world you paint.

 

[De_Maria]

I know these are weak, arrogant, straw man responses from the pro-abortion side, but what are graceful, factual and Catholic responses to this line of argument?

Thanks in advance!

You’re welcome.

One Pro life argument - does miscarriage mean the greatest abortionist is God?

No. Satan is.

I hear this statement “God is the Greatest Abortionist” used as a rebuttal to various pro-life arguments. The usually follow it up with 50% of all pregnancies are spontaneously terminated (Same Harris, Neil deGrasse Tyson, etc).

God gives life. Satan is the father of death. It is because of him that death entered the world through Adam and it is because of Satan that death remains in the world, today. That is why he is called the “enemy”. Because he hates humanity and seeks to destroy it.

The often use bible verses to push back on Christians (Exodus 21:22-25, Numbers 31:17-18, Psalms 137:8)

Here are the ones that are pertinent.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Satan hates mankind because we are made in the image of God. Therefore, he wants to exterminate us. Beginning with little innocent children, because they are the stuff that heaven is made of.

 

[PJM]

GOD is in charge

He ALONE is the instigator, giver and sustainer of ALL LIFE.

Isaiah 55:6-8 "Seek the LORD while he may be found, call upon him while he is near;
let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. [8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD.

That said: Only God can cause a Conversion; anyone so obstinate as to press this charge is VERY unliKely to be swayed by ANY logic of facts.

Pray VERY Much for them,
Patrick

 

[FiveLinden]

So what sort of life do the sperm and egg have, if not human life? And my point was not that individuals do not seek to end spontaneous miscarriage in their own circumstances. It was that in general Catholics do not act as they would in relation to these deaths as they would if it were born babies, or late term foetuses dying in these massive numbers. Congratulations on your efforts and bravery and I hope you and your family have many happy years.

 

[RoseofMary1]

God may allow a miscarriage. It may be that the mother was not physically strong enough, was sick, etc. Maybe something horrible is being prevented. We don’t know the reasons, so we can’t really say. God allowing a miscarriage is different than deliberately killing a child in the womb out of selfishness or convenience or embarrassment, etc.

 

[BornInMarch]

If this argument were true - if miscarriages did make God an abortionist - then earthquakes would make God a murderer.

The cruelty of the natural world never excuses the cruelty of human civilization. Saying “babies miscarry all the time” is as much a justification for legalized abortion as “animals kill each other in nature all the time” is a justification for stabbing a man in the throat for parking too close to your car.

 

[AveOTheotokos]

So what sort of life do the sperm and egg have, if not human life?

Sperm has a sperm life, and an egg has an egg life. Each on their own is not a human any more than an individual stomach cell is a human

 

[Even_Keal]

I COMPLETELY disagree with the assertion that “Catholics do not seek to end spontaneous miscarriage” That’s just absurd.

The Catholic Church is responsible for many, many hospitals, medical facilities, fertility specialists (Pope Paul VI Institute), medical advances, education and prayer that have helped alleviate many of these sufferings that occur as the result of the natural world. Miscarriage being one of many human traumas that have been better alleviated due to the actions of the Church and Her people.

The way Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, and even Pro-Life Atheists, “act” towards ending the stain of abortion can be summed up as meeting the enemy where they are at. We are loud, vocal, and active about our opposition towards it.

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Actions towards Abortion - Activism, Compassion, Steadfastness, and Prayer
Actions towards Miscarriage - - Medical Advancement, Compassion, Steadfastness, and Prayer

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Based on the logic above, Catholics actually do MORE for miscarriage then abortion.

 

[F_Marturana]

We all die. Some of us die very young at just a few days or weeks, some of us live long lives.

 

[AlessandraP]

I haven’t learnt about the Holy Bible that much (I’m a renewed convert, basically Catholic by name since child and attempting to learn since not that long) but doing research I found this about exodus and why it’s bad to use it as an abortion example

Does the Bible Condone Abortion? - Catholic Stand

(Protestant explanation) The Misuse of Exodus 21:22–25 by Pro-Choice Advocates | Desiring God

About numbers 31 it includes women and male children, not unborn babies, besides I’ve read (in my language, in spanish) a protestant talking about it and says that God had already gave them like with ninive a merciful route of repentance and unlike Ninive they rejected Him so He punished the midianate women who instigated and seduced the israelites to worship idols, but the male children, the protestant says God was merciful because they would have gotten lost with the idols and with resentment leading them to persecute the Israelites, God’s people, and I got explanation about the book of Esther, about how Haman (descendent of the Amalekites spared King) who hated Mordecai as an example of what would the Midianites also have done to His people, so God with his omniscient wisdom protected the Israelites
And also http://www.catholicaustralia.com.au/the-scripture/the-old-testament/reading-the-pentateuch-numbers
A long explanation about numbers since we shouldn’t just take vesicles and use them as they are; we have to look out for all the texts and context.

I dont know about Psalms 137:8 i will also like to hear about this since all i knows that God respected the authors personality and that’s why in many psalms we read what the author felt more than a God’s resentment or revengefull feel like some say, but that’s what i have read so i dont know.
I shouldn’t be explaining this since my english grammars very bad but I think you can research and find good explanations on those passages and why they cant be used as an abortion reference.
Its good you want to defend our faith and not to stay in silence like many of us catholics do but like Patrick says we must pray for them since is the Lord Almighty who can convert them. Keep learning, praying and asking, God will give you the answers you and the people you want to help to know and love Him need.

God bless all of you, i pray to our Lady Mary to help us and guides us all.

 

[AlessandraP]

I agree with Boler, I think, it could be a bit more precise (and still not) to compare us with painters and God with a master. God would be who created the frame, pigments to make the paintings, brushes and all; we would be painters with creativity and capabilities of picking either pigments to make the paintings by learning from the others who are by our side or already did their painting and who could let others leads us to paint our canvas or who would make it according to our personalities; God would also be as a teacher who you either ask to help you or ignore it to doodle the canvas as your own desire leads you to or the painter you want to follow teaches you to; basically it would be very blatant to compare God and creation with a simple God’s the painter and all creation inanimate tools to entertain Himself (not talking about comparing your own relationship with God like Saint Therese of Lisieux did beautifully refering to sumiting her will to Him) and also incoherent for us catholics to let others do so, at least that’s my very poor in knowledge opinion; besides he who wrote the post asks for answers, not to be more criticized, i mean being criticizeds not bad, we know it helps us to grow and learn more about ourselves but if you already have an answer dont just move your hands around and share it to us who knows much less for charity to the ignorant…

 

[misstherese]

It is the devil who brought death. God only allows it to happen because He loves so much that He gave everyone free will, including the fallen angels.

 

[Verdanty]

I think such a few is inevitable in a theistic sense. The Early Church Fathers, I’m especially thinking of Tertullian and Augustine as well, came to his theory of predestination for a reason; it’s an an inevitable conseqeunce of a deity that is all powerful and omnicient.

If he has the power to change something (an individuals inclination to say atheism or homosexual acts) but chooses not to that is itself an act of the will, he has deigned that this scenario/individual shall exist because he has selected to create it just like this. Now if God was say a Gnostic Demiurge or an Olympian God this might be another story, he might be far beyond the ken of mortals but they still didn’t have power sufficient to foresee every potential future or shape the world the same way a monotheistic creator does.

Every experience you have, every burst of faith or doubt you ever feel; If God is omnicient and omnipotent; he’s chosen for that to happen. More than that, he has chosen for how you will respond to it, with adoring faith, hatred, sadness etc.

In this view we are robots, we may have the illusion of free will but in fact we’ve been crafted for a specific purpose and end (the telos is a big thing in Church Aristotolian/Scholastic thinking after all) and that end was chosen by a deity that shapes everything, even the evil (See Job) in this world.

 

[Boler]

Your natural choice of the term “inclination” alludes to free will that can choose to be fed or starved in some way.

I think St. Augustine’s teachings should be seen as a highly nuanced thing. He was (of course) a great theologian but also a great poet, wrapping his theology in poetry. As such, I think he created a space to simultaneously hold a form of predestination and free will. Roman Catholicism likewise teaches a form or predestination that does not preclude free will.

I think the mystery is closely related to the teaching that evil is a privation and not absolute. And that, in a sense, it is better to exist in hell than to not exist at all.

Every experience you have, every burst of faith or doubt you ever feel

Why must this preclude free will? It’s not hard for me to believe that after you’ve stripped away all these things, all the situations and causes and chemicals and their electrons, you’re left with the “heart”:

“The heart is the dwelling-place where I am, where I live; according to the Semitic or Biblical expression, the heart is the place “to which I withdraw.”
The heart is our hidden center, beyond the grasp of our reason and of others;
only the Spirit of God can fathom the human heart and know it fully.
The heart is the place of decision, deeper than our psychic drives.
It is the place of truth, where we choose life or death.
It is the place of encounter, because as image of God we live in relation:
it is the place of covenant.”

 

[Verdanty]

I think St. Augustine’s teachings should be seen as a highly nuanced thing. He was (of course) a great theologian but also a great poet, wrapping his theology in poetry. As such, I think he created a space to simultaneously hold a form of predestination and free will. Roman Catholicism likewise teaches a form or predestination that does not preclude free will.

How does it not? You have been intentionally crafted a specific way for a designated fate. Say if I made a toaster, and inserted some bread, should I get upset when it fails to be capable of producing for me pasta when it pops up? Of course not, I provided it with the faculties and resources to produce toast.

This is what this God expects of us. It expects us to behave a specific way, and has yet crafted many of us to behave in a diametrically opposite manner due to the culture, experiences or whatever else it might be which ultimately being omniscient is also of his design.

I think the mystery is closely related to the teaching that evil is a privation and not absolute. And that, in a sense, it is better to exist in hell than to not exist at all.

I actually think oblivion is preferable to roasting for all eternity. Then again, I am the sort of individual who would take risks seek happiness for a few short years than settle for misery for a great many. Endless torment of freedom from it? Not a hard decision for me personally.

As for evil being a privation, that logic isn’t especially solid really. I mean, Widespread poverty comes from a lack of money, social programs and moral character. Poverty isn’t really poverty but a lack of means to support yourself — meaning poverty doesn’t actually exist but is just a lack of wealth. The state in the end is a kind, caring, compassionate, perfect government that wants to take care of its children but sometimes goes a little over budget … and makes cuts to social services which we puny humans cannot properly understand in the grand scheme of national budgeting. Likewise systemic homophobia isn’t abuse but is in fact a lack of tolerance. When a group of jocks punch in the face of a gay teenager before dunking his head in the toilet, it isn’t in fact fag-hate but really a lack of kindness and understanding. Homophobia is thus an illusion and the real problem is a temporary blip in human decency.

It doesn’t work. Evil isn’t an absence of good, it’s a perception of an action.

Why must this preclude free will? It’s not hard for me to believe that after you’ve stripped away all these things, all the situations and causes and chemicals and their electrons, you’re left with the “heart”:

What do you think matters most? Logic or emotions?

Logic can explain and reason with what is, while emotion just rails and rebels against reality.

I personally would go with what my head knows to be most likely to be true through a chain of evidence and reasoning rather than what makes me feel warm and cozy.

 

[Boler]

should I get upset when it fails to be capable of producing

No. I agree. Similar to how it is said that a single immoral choice is worse than all the natural disasters of human history. If there is no free will involved, why should it upset us?

Have you read C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity? He poses a similar question, “Is this state of affairs in accordance with God’s will or not? If it is, He is a strange God, you will say: and if it is not, how can anything happen contrary
to the will of a being with absolute power?”

Give it a read if you’re really interested in a Christian perspective.

Not a hard decision for me personally.

No, I’m not talking about oblivion. Maybe you’ve not explored and struggled enough with the concept of non-existence.

I’m not sure I’m following your poverty example. What I don’t get about your “homophobia” example is you state jocks punching an innocent kid (an evil) is lack of tolerance (a good). But then you say evil isn’t an absence of good. I’m sorry I’m not following you.

What do you think matters most? Logic or emotions?

I think choice matters most: what I choose based on what I know (which includes logic), assisted by properly ordered emotions.

Please don’t mischaracterize my reasoning as “warm and cozy” feelings. It only shows me that you have a superficial understanding of Christianity. Why do you think it is wrong for those jocks to punch the kid? Or that God has created this “glorified torture chamber”? To quote C.S. Lewis again, “My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust?” Perhaps you should start there.

 

[FiveLinden]

How do you distinguish between a living stomach cell and a human being?