One-third of Americans reject evolution, poll shows

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Except an improbability does not equal an impossibility. 1/10^35, while small, does not equal zero. Eventually, given enough coin tosses, there could very well be the string of 200 coin tosses described somewhere in those coin tosses.
And as I ate dinner yesterday I noticed there was a fair amount of type on the table underneath the laminate.

I could read it, and it appeared to provide a brief history of the restaurant and the owners.

But then, without having seen any evidence that this writing was purposely put there, I suppose it would be legitimate to conclude that everything I was reading was random smears placed during the manufacture process.

Fortunately for the owners of the restaurant, most people do not place such faith in long odds, and will accept the writing on the table for what it is. And the owner gets the advertisement dollars for his effort.

I don’t believe in long odds when there is a perfectly acceptable alternative.
 
Well, you are far more trusting in the people of science than I am. People in any walk of life can have an agenda. Millions of souls have lost their faith due to specious reasoning under the auspices of “science”. :eek: Rob
Much of science was invented by devout Catholics.

You being a “christian” likely have a totally different world outlook than adhearants of the True Faith however. 🤷
 
Hey, I just thought I would reply to this post as I think it is a common misconception to use an analogy such as a building as evidence for a designer.

It is important to understand that we know the building had an intelligent designer(s), as there are many examples of buildings from intelligent design. We can go to the planning office and view the original architectural layouts and verify who designed it.

When applying this to natural life, it is important to remember that no scientific evidence to date suggests that a creator was at hand. This of course, doesn’t rule it out and scientists do not have an agenda to “disprove” it. If sufficient evidence was to be discovered tomorrow that proved intelligent design, scientists would admit their error. So far however, all evidence points to a natural process. Evolution at this point can be deemed fact, like gravity.
Aye, but there’s the rub.

All evidence does not point to a natural process, at least not one that demonstrates everything that is associated with it.

Natural selection as a mechanism for adaptive change is pretty much indisputable, but in order to arrive at a conclusion that random mutations coupled with natural selection have the power to fuel the variety of life forms, behaviours and morphology extant in nature, Darwin used a philosophical argument, one that infers random mutation coupled with natural selection as the “best explanation” for the variety of forms in nature. This is an inductive argument that attempts to “rule” out all other possibilities as being inadequate. However, modern science has a far different understanding of cellular function than it did in Darwin’s time, which casts a different light on his argument “to the best explanation.”

The evidence, at best, only “points towards” NS actioning on RM as but one possibility. The sufficiency of RM is by no means, a scientific “fact.” Adaptive change IS a scientific fact, but the claim that random mutation coupled with natural selection can account for all change is NOT. It is, in fact, more and more contentious in biology today than ever because we know so much more about the complexity of cells and the genetic code required to organize and “run” them.

Meyer, as a philosopher, correctly views Darwin’s argument as an inference to the best explanation. He uses Darwin’s argument exactly to argue for intelligent design on the basis that IT is the “best explanation” for genetic code since nowhere in nature - except in cellular functioning - do we have evidence of “information” of the level of complexity and function found in cells ever arising except when produced by an intelligent agent.

The fact that the probabilistic resources of the universe would be insufficient to produce the level of DNA coding found in cells is an argument against such complex and highly specified information arising due to “random” events.

This argues against the claim that genetic code found in cells demonstrates that complex specified information could come about in nature due to random events.

Certainly, this argument is a philosophical one, but NO MORE a philosophical one - AND NO LESS a scientific one - than Darwin’s claim that random selection acting on random mutations has the power to engender the variety of life forms that currently exist.

Darwin’s claim cannot be “proven” scientifically, either.

For example, if the genetic code, itself, is found to have the specified means, i.e., embedded code, within it to adapt itself to changing environmental pressures, that would demonstrate that mutations do not account for positive change, but the code itself has the capacity inherent in it to do so.

One strong argument for debunking the idea that random mutations can consistently bring about positive change is the fact that making random changes to computer code never (or almost never) improve functionality. It is far more likely that random mutations, on their own, would have brought about the degeneration and extinction of life rather than continual improvement.

To say the fact that we have successful life forms today is evidence that random mutation IS effective begs the question entirely. We do not know, except by presumption, that that success was, in fact, solely due to random mutations selected by natural mechanisms.

This is not “pure science,” either. It IS conjecture regarding what “best explains” the evidence, which is precisely what IDvolution presents to legitimately counter the philosophical claims of Darwinism.
 
Agreed. The Bible is not a science text.

But that does not mean that I am convinced evolution theory is true.
That’s because you don’t understand what a ‘Theory’ is in Science and inductive reasoning. Tell me: do you also doubt the veracity of the ‘Theory of Gravity’? or Atomic Theory?

A Theory in science is a hypothesis that is backed by the vast majority of the evidence we have, and whose total refutation has become incredibly unlikely. It is unreasonable (and illogical) to reject a scientific theory simply because you don’t have any understanding of Evolutionary Biology.
 
That’s because you don’t understand what a ‘Theory’ is in Science and inductive reasoning. Tell me: do you also doubt the veracity of the ‘Theory of Gravity’? or Atomic Theory?
I reject that we have a complete understanding of either.
 
I reject that we have a complete understanding of either.
We don’t have a complete understanding of anything. As the mystics say…to few it is given to understand the EVERYTHING remains to be understood. The theories around evolution are the best “science” has to offer us presently.
 
That’s because you don’t understand what a ‘Theory’ is in Science and inductive reasoning. Tell me: do you also doubt the veracity of the ‘Theory of Gravity’? or Atomic Theory?

A Theory in science is a hypothesis that is backed by the vast majority of the evidence we have, and whose total refutation has become incredibly unlikely. It is unreasonable (and illogical) to reject a scientific theory simply because you don’t have any understanding of Evolutionary Biology.
The problem with the “theory” of evolution is that it cannot show that all adaptive change was, in fact, due to random mutations selected by “natural” pressures. It assumes that the changes were all random changes and, then, points out that SOME of those random changes were successful BECAUSE those forms continue to flourish AND points to all the extinct forms as corroborating evidence that “random” doesn’t always mean successful. It is DEEPLY circular reasoning.

Those who claim ID science is unfalsifiable ought to look with a little more than a passing glance at how truly “falsifiable” natural selection acting on random mutations is. In fact, if anything, ID science IS precisely what would falsify it and NS acting on RM is the falsifiability test for ID science. They are in the same boat, together, in fact.
 
We don’t have a complete understanding of anything. As the mystics say…to few it is given to understand the EVERYTHING remains to be understood. The theories around evolution are the best “science” has to offer us presently.
Except where the theory steps into simple guess work.

Science should be testable. There are various aspects of the theory that cannot be tested.
 
I reject that we have a complete understanding of either.
There is a difference between complete understanding, and knowing the mechanism to be true based upon all the evidence we currently have. Evolution is the latter, a complete understanding is impossible in our finite existence simply because our intellect is restricted.

Attempting to infer design from evolution is a fruitless task, and will be wrought with philosophical and scientific problems. Defenders of the Teleological Argument tend to refer themselves to the Cosmological Constants and Contemporary Physics rather than Biology, as the inference of transcendental design is easier and the fallacy of composition is avoided.
 
We don’t have a complete understanding of anything. As the mystics say…to few it is given to understand the EVERYTHING remains to be understood. The theories around evolution are the best “science” has to offer us presently.
Which leaves room for questioning those theories. That is why ID should, at least, be listened to and not dismissed without a hearing as “not science.”

How will we ever know if evolution theories are really correct if we refuse to question them because of the assumption that they are “correct?” If they are correct, they would stand up to scrutiny. That is a “no-brainer!”

The dogmatic “principle” in evolutionary theory that merely questioning these theories is evidence that the questioner is incompetent or foolish needs to be repealed.

The ID proponent is mistaken in questioning theories of evolution.
How do we know that?
BECAUSE only incompetent fools question theories of evolution.

That’s called circular reasoning.
 
Exactly!

Anyone can look at a skyscraper or an automobile or a computer and immediately tell you that those objects were designed by an intelligent agent. Why should we be shocked when we discover the design present in the molecular building blocks of life? The only ones who are disturbed at the evidence of design are the Materialists - who have decided, a priori, that the Designer does not exist.

I think that Michael Behe and the other pioneers in Intelligent Design Theory will some day get the credit that is due to them. Mr. Behe acutally identified the limit of Random/Darwinian Evolution (he placed it between between the level of vertebrate species and class). In an impartial Scientific Community this discovery would have been welcomed as huge news. Alas, proponents of Intelligent Design are blacklisted not only in the scientific community but in the classroom as well. And as Mr. Behe notes, getting this question of Evolution wrong can actually have practical implications for our lives, particularly in the field of medicine.
Now that scientists have got over the idea that junk DNA is not junk, they are indeed discovering disease related function. So, in the recent past, what was arbitrarily discarded as remnants of alleged evolution leftovers is turning out to be an integral part of the whole.

Peace,
Ed
 
Hey, I just thought I would reply to this post as I think it is a common misconception to use an analogy such as a building as evidence for a designer.

It is important to understand that we know the building had an intelligent designer(s), as there are many examples of buildings from intelligent design. We can go to the planning office and view the original architectural layouts and verify who designed it.

When applying this to natural life, it is important to remember that no scientific evidence to date suggests that a creator was at hand. This of course, doesn’t rule it out and scientists do not have an agenda to “disprove” it. If sufficient evidence was to be discovered tomorrow that proved intelligent design, scientists would admit their error. So far however, all evidence points to a natural process. Evolution at this point can be deemed fact, like gravity.
That is not an accurate statement.

usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/science/2007-04-12-pope-evolution_N.htm

Peace,
Ed
 
Which leaves room for questioning those theories. That is why ID should, at least, be listened to and not dismissed without a hearing as “not science.”

How will we ever know if evolution theories are really correct if we refuse to question them because of the assumption that they are “correct?” If they are correct, they would stand up to scrutiny. That is a “no-brainer!”

The dogmatic “principle” in evolutionary theory that merely questioning these theories is evidence that the questioner is incompetent or foolish needs to be repealed.

The ID proponent is mistaken in questioning theories of evolution.
How do we know that?
BECAUSE only incompetent fools question theories of evolution.

That’s called circular reasoning.
Correct.

Peace,
Ed
 
There is a difference between complete understanding, and knowing the mechanism to be true based upon all the evidence we currently have.
We don’t “know” the mechanism is “true.” All the evidence does NOT point to it being true. There are many reasons to doubt that natural selection acting solely on random mutations has the creative power to invent novel life forms to the extent claimed. A few small adaptive changes, perhaps, but even that cannot be extrapolated to account for creating the entire gamut of functionality available to life as it exists today without a great deal of presuming.
 
A few small adaptive changes, perhaps, but even that cannot be extrapolated to account for creating the entire gamut of functionality available to life as it exists today without a great deal of presuming.
I am curious if the theory of gravity or atomic theory presume as many things.
 
Which leaves room for questioning those theories. That is why ID should, at least, be listened to and not dismissed without a hearing as “not science.”

How will we ever know if evolution theories are really correct if we refuse to question them because of the assumption that they are “correct?” If they are correct, they would stand up to scrutiny. That is a “no-brainer!”

The dogmatic “principle” in evolutionary theory that merely questioning these theories is evidence that the questioner is incompetent or foolish needs to be repealed.

The ID proponent is mistaken in questioning theories of evolution.
How do we know that?
BECAUSE only incompetent fools question theories of evolution.

That’s called circular reasoning.
ID is wrong because it makes a category error in its notions of causality, and makes a presumption of the metaphysics of modernity which makes it inherently problematic to Classical Theism. This isn’t circular reasoning, and has been a point ignored through this entire thread by those in support of ID. Evolution is at least one step up as it isn’t make an error in which mode of causality it is looking at, nor attempting to make an empirical observation create a metaphysical argument.
 
Which leaves room for questioning those theories. That is why ID should, at least, be listened to and not dismissed without a hearing as “not science.”

How will we ever know if evolution theories are really correct if we refuse to question them because of the assumption that they are “correct?” If they are correct, they would stand up to scrutiny. That is a “no-brainer!”

The dogmatic “principle” in evolutionary theory that merely questioning these theories is evidence that the questioner is incompetent or foolish needs to be repealed.

The ID proponent is mistaken in questioning theories of evolution.
How do we know that?
BECAUSE only incompetent fools question theories of evolution.

That’s called circular reasoning.
Theories are just that…theories - reasonable hypothesis that remain to be proven…
 
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