One-third of Americans reject evolution, poll shows

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Perha;s you should re-read the post.
I asked for proof. Not of science, but of what you are claiming of me.

The moderators have been very gracious in allowing a subject that is banned to be discussed. But I suspect the thread is watched closely.
Please do not make this a discussion of the person and not the subject.
Perhaps you should re-read my post. I did, in fact, provide that proof.

Since science does NOT claim that reality is only what can be measured, BY LOGICAL NECESSITY, you made it up. And again, if you really think I’m wrong and want to prove it, then you are going to have to show where science does, indeed, claim that reality is only what can be measured. I suspect that you cannot and are reacting more out of surprise at being called out than actual offense.
 
No need to be so intentionally difficult. Again, its just an analogy. But since you need clarification, assume all other things being equal, which group is more likely to survive?
Survive what? I am not being intentionally difficult here.
I told you earlier, I analyze and think it through before making a decision.
You are asking me to forgo research and snap an answer.
I do not do that.
I hope your need for clarification illustrates how in depth evolution really is and how much studying and research and experiments are actually done on the subject to arrive at these kinds of conclusions. It’s not just some idea. its been tested and tested and tested and tested in minute detail.
My need for clarity indicates an innate need for as much information as possible before making a judgement.
I would think everyone supporting any type of scientific method would likewise have great reservations concerning some kind of snap judgement.
 
Perhaps you should re-read my post. I did, in fact, provide that proof.

Since science does NOT claim that reality is only what can be measured, BY LOGICAL NECESSITY, you made it up. And again, if you really think I’m wrong and want to prove it, then you are going to have to show where science does, indeed, claim that reality is only what can be measured. I suspect that you cannot and are reacting more out of surprise at being called out than actual offense.
Logic actually dictates more than the two possibilities.
Proof will be difficult to come by.
 
Is this thread closed?

I tried to post a few minutes ago and got a “thread closed” message, but now it’s back.

Hmmm.
 
Survive what? I am not being intentionally difficult here.
They’re police officers, for pete’s sake! More likely to survive in the line of duty. Do I really have to spell absolutely everything out for you?
You are asking me to forgo research and snap an answer.
I do not do that.
But that’s what you’re SUPPOSED TO DO with analogies. The point is that its an analogy.
My need for clarity indicates an innate need for as much information as possible before making a judgement.
I would think everyone supporting any type of scientific method would likewise have great reservations concerning some kind of snap judgement.
When it comes to science, sure. But, again, this is a simple analogy, not science.
 
No, the lie would be that, “Science conclusively KNOWS that evolution
is by no means random and that a Divine Designer is behind it all.” That
is the lie of Intelligent Design, that science can see the Designer, God.
Another lie is that Intelligent Design is a science. At least the scientists
who claim evolution are honest enough to say that "As far as science is
able to reveal to us, evolution involves in part random mutations to which
we DO NOT KNOW the physical causes behind.

Intelligent Design is different, however, for it is a non-falsifiable religious
view that pretends to be a science and is by far not humble enough to
just say the words “I don’t know.”

I believe this following pair of videos demonstrates your claim as false:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dz2jonHmBeI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_ZpQZgw2UM
You are either extremely confused or are intentionally misrepresenting Michael Behe.

Michael Behe has made it explicitly clear in his writings and on numerous videos available on YouTube that Intelligent Design is not a religious argument. Intelligent Design is 100% scientific because it follows from the empirical evidence: anytime we witness design we rightly conclude the presence of a Designer. If we happened to stumble upon an abandoned ruin with hieroglyphics in the desert we would conclude that we have stumbled upon a structure that did not occur by Chance: it was designed; likewise, when one stumbles upon the irreducible complexity of molecular machinery and heiroglyphics (DNA code) built into the building blocks of life, and after having realized that the probability of these structures occurring by Chance was so improbable that it defied statistical credulity, Behe concluded that these biological structures were designed. Not once did religious arguments influence Behe’s conclusion of Design - it is based strictly on the empirical evidence and standard Logic. He makes it clear that although science can detect Design, the identity of the Designer is a question for Theology to answer.

And please stop equating Behe’s arguments with young earth “creationism.” Behe is on the record rejecting those fundamentalist arguments. Quit muddying the waters. It’s getting old already.

Behe even acknowledges that Darwinian (aka Random) Mutations play a part in this story. But he has very strong and scientific reasons to suspect that Non-Random Mutations also played a pivotal role.
 
Logic actually dictates more than the two possibilities.
Proof will be difficult to come by.
Then provide another possibility and while you’re at it, please provide the evidence that science says that reality is only what can be measured.
 
You are either extremely confused or are intentionally misrepresenting Michael Behe.

Michael Behe has made it explicitly clear in his writings and on numerous videos available on YouTube that Intelligent Design is not a religious argument.
But again, ID is not Behe’s baby. Other people invented it, and THEY have admitted that it is a religious argument on the stand, under penalty of perjury, in the court of law. Behe can say its not a religious argument all he wants. He is not the one who gets to decide whether it is or not.
because it follows from the empirical evidence: anytime we witness design we rightly conclude the presence of a Designer.
That’s not following empirical evidence, though. The very idea that you have witnessed design is the CONCLUSION, not the premise. You first need evidence that what you see is designed before you can conclude that it is. And since no one has done a single actual experiment to test for design, that’s obviously not happened.
If we happened to stumble upon an abandoned ruin with hieroglyphics in the desert we would conclude that we have stumbled upon a structure that did not occur by Chance: it was designed;
That’s because ancient ruins do not reproduce or self replicate imperfectly.
likewise, when one stumbles upon the irreducible complexity of molecular machinery…
But there is no irreducible complexity. Every attempt to suggest that something is irreducibly complex has been met by real scientists with proof that it is not.
Quit muddying the waters. It’s getting old already.
We’re not the ones muddying the waters here… ID, Creationism, evolution, etc. already have established meanings. You came here trying to insist that they mean something else.
 
They’re police officers, for pete’s sake! More likely to survive in the line of duty. Do I really have to spell absolutely everything out for you?
That is what research is all about.
But that’s what you’re SUPPOSED TO DO with analogies. The point is that its an analogy.
I would think we would apply the same thought into the analogy as we would for the real world. If what is thought to be an analogy cannot take the same scrutiny, than it likely does not portray an accurate analogy.
When it comes to science, sure. But, again, this is a simple analogy, not science.
I am uncertain what the analogy is of. Can you remind me?
 
That is what research is all about.

I would think we would apply the same thought into the analogy as we would for the real world. If what is thought to be an analogy cannot take the same scrutiny, than it likely does not portray an accurate analogy.

I am uncertain what the analogy is of. Can you remind me?
Again, this is a flipping analogy. Let me say it again - an ANALOGY. You are supposed to assume all other things being equal here. That’s part of the point. We’re not doing research. We’re not studying police officers. I posed a simple question based on an analogy. And if you don’t know what its of, then I would suggest you do the scientific process thing that you’ve claimed so much you believe in and look it up. The posts are still there.
 
But again, ID is not Behe’s baby. Other people invented it, and THEY have admitted that it is a religious argument on the stand, under penalty of perjury, in the court of law.
Does the court dictate scientific truth?

I would think if there are those that do not believe ID to be a religious argument, than their definition is obviously quite different from the one described in the court.

Perhaps it would benefit all if we could simply work with that definition.
 
Computers don’t reproduce.
True. Which makes evolution of life forms a much greater challenge than simply coding computer software. So if we would view random changes to computer code as being highly unlikely to improve software, then it would appear to be even less likely that random changes to genetic code would improve it because genetic code bears double the burden - properly functioning bodies and the reproduction of those bodies.

Thanks for making my case even stronger :tiphat:

Yes. Yes. I know, it’s natural selection ACTING ON random mutation. But the random mutation has to give rise to the functional code in the first place before it can be subject to random selection. So some form of code must be generated before it can be filtered by natural selection.

Which is why abiogenesis is a crucial missing piece of the puzzle. Without knowing how the code arose or the initial form it took, it is taking stabs in the dark to infer that natural selection acting on random mutations can have the efficacy the mechanism is claimed to have.
 
Why do humans still murder each other if we have evolved?
What does murder have to do with it? Populations evolve, not entire species. And evolution is adaptation to improve survival of the individual, not the entire race. There is no logical reason that evolution would cause murder to cease.
 
You are either extremely confused or are intentionally misrepresenting Michael Behe.

Michael Behe has made it explicitly clear in his writings and on numerous videos available on YouTube that Intelligent Design is not a religious argument. Intelligent Design is 100% scientific because it follows from the empirical evidence: anytime we witness design we rightly conclude the presence of a Designer.
That begins however with the idea that there is a Designer. Also, no matter what hy-
pothetical reality with which we challenge Intelligent Design, it just is not falsifiable.
By that very fact alone, Intelligent Design is not a science. It sure speaks scientific-
ally, but at its very heart, ID is religion.
If we happened to stumble upon an abandoned ruin with hieroglyphics in the desert we would conclude that we have stumbled upon a structure that did not occur by Chance: it was designed; likewise, when one stumbles upon the irreducible complexity of molecular machinery and heiroglyphics (DNA code) built into the building blocks of life, and after having realized that the probability of these structures occurring by Chance was so improbable that it defied statistical credulity, Behe concluded that these biological structures were designed. Not once did religious arguments influence Behe’s conclusion of Design - it is based strictly on the empirical evidence and standard Logic. He makes it clear that although science can detect Design, the identity of the Designer is a question for Theology to answer.
And please stop equating Behe’s arguments with young earth “creationism.” Behe is on the record rejecting those fundamentalist arguments.
Quit muddying the waters. It’s getting old already.
The example you gave above rings something very familiar. When the Aztecs discovered
the abandoned city of Teotihuacan, noticing all the incredible complexes and pyramids,
they concluded that the city was built by the gods. That is intelligent Design “science.”
 
Again, this is a flipping analogy. Let me say it again - an ANALOGY. You are supposed to assume all other things being equal here. That’s part of the point. We’re not doing research. We’re not studying police officers. I posed a simple question based on an analogy. And if you don’t know what its of, then I would suggest you do the scientific process thing that you’ve claimed so much you believe in and look it up. The posts are still there.
OK, all things being equal, the snap answer would be that the vests do not contribute to survival.
 
People are not supposed to notice the design. To note it is to note something that cannot be measured, and is therefore anathema.

It is interesting. Centuries ago science was about reality and scientists would struggle to find ways to measure it.
Now science says reality is only what can be measured.
Centuries ago, most scientists were open to all possibilities. Since then, science has placed certain limits on itself. Experiments have been performed, for example, by attaching a monitor to a nun who was about to pray. Certain changes in her mental state were observed during prayer, but changes in mental state can occur for a variety of non-religious reasons. This was tried on others who I would describe as belonging to other belief systems and similar changes were observed. It didn’t prove anything.

There has been an attempt to create a field of study called “evolutionary psychology” but it has been met with skepticism on the part of the scientific community for good reason. All alleged ancestors are long dead.

For Catholics, the whole answer does not lie in science. Only the Church, through Divine Revelation, has the fullness of who and what man is. All it takes is a book by Richard Dawkins called the God Delusion. How he can rail against a being that he places on the very low end of the probability scale as actually existing is a good example of preaching anti-theism to the people. And scientists don’t realize the confusion he’s causing? No wonder some people reject evolution, because there are other scientists like Mr. Dawkins making dogmatic statements against God.

That is the issue here. Science can only solve problems about human origins going from a set of assumptions that assume everyone got here through blind, unguided chance. Many people also don’t read science journals.

“To evaluate the importance of classic sweeps in shaping human diversity, we analyzed resequencing data for 179 human genomes from four populations”. “In humans, the effects of sweeps are expected to persist for approximately 10,000 generations or about 250,000 years.” Evolutionists had identified “more than 2000 genes as potential targets of positive selection in the human genome”, and they expected that “diversity patterns in about 10% of the human genome have been affected by linkage to recent sweeps.” So what did they find? “In contrast to expectation,” their test detected nothing, but they could not quite bring themselves to say it. They said there was a “paucity of classic sweeps revealed by our findings”. Sweeps “were too infrequent within the past 250,000 years to have had discernible effects on genomic diversity.” “Classic sweeps were not a dominant mode of human adaptation over the past 250,000 years.” --Hernandez, Ryan D., Joanna L. Kelley, Eyal Elyashiv, S. Cord Melton, Adam Auton, Gilean McVean, 1000 Genomes Project, Guy Sella, Molly Przeworski. 18 February 2011. Classic Selective Sweeps Were Rare in Recent Human Evolution. Science, Vol. 331, no. 6019, pp. 920-924.

“A 35-year experiment by evolutionists shows how things really work. Instead of waiting for natural selection, researchers forced selection on hundreds of generations of fruit flies. They used variation to breed fruit flies that develop from egg to adult 20% faster than normal. But, as usual when breeding plants and animals, there was a down side. In this case the fruit flies weighed less, lived shorter lives, and were less resistant to starvation. There were many mutations, but none caught on, and the experiment ran into the limits of variation. They wrote that “forward experimental evolution can often be completely reversed with these populations”. “Despite decades of sustained selection in relatively small, sexually reproducing laboratory populations, selection did not lead to the fixation of newly arising unconditionally advantageous alleles.” “The probability of fixation in wild populations should be even lower than its likelihood in these experiments.” --Burke, Molly K., Joseph P. Dunham, Parvin Shahrestani, Kevin R. Thornton, Michael R. Rose, Anthony D. Long. 30 September 2010. Genome-wide analysis of a long-term evolution experiment with Drosophila. Nature, Vol. 467, pp. 587-590.”

Peace,
Ed
 
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