One-third of Americans reject evolution, poll shows

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I will stick with Pope Benedict’s words about this theory:

“The pope (John Paul) had his reasons for saying this,” Benedict said. “But it is also true that the theory of evolution is not a complete, scientifically proven theory.”

Benedict added that the immense time span that evolution covers made it impossible to conduct experiments in a controlled environment to finally verify or disprove the theory.

“We cannot haul 10,000 generations into the laboratory,” he said.

That’s it, my fellow Catholics.

Peace,
Ed
But Pope Benedict, who seems to disagree with Pope John Paul on this issue, is not speaking infallibly, ex cathedra, and so is not representing the position of the Church in doctrinal matters. He is basically speaking as a layman. As a Catholic, you’re free to agree or disagree with him.
 
I already explained that. That is abiogenesis, a different subject entirely. This is evolution, not abiogenesis.
A zygote and how it became one is a “different subject entirely” from discussion concerning how and why a human life “evolves” into a fully grown human being, apparently.
 
False and false:
  1. Some evolution is random and some is not.
  2. Intelligent Design as proposed by Michael Behe explicitly allows for random evolution up to a certain limit beyond which non-random evolution (design) is required.
Not one Pope has stated that the variety of “Evolution” proposed by Darwin and Dawkins is at all compatible with the Teaching of the Catholic Church. The form of “Evolution” proposed by Darwin and Dawkins is just Materialism pretending to be Science.

The Holy Fathers have allowed for the type of evolution proposed by genuine scientists like Michael Behe (who happens to be a practicing Catholic), not the type of “evolution” proposed by Darwin and Dawkins and other such militant materialists.
"The more we know of the universe the more profoundly we are struck by a Reason whose ways we can only contemplate with astonishment. In pursuing them we can see anew that creating Intelligence to whom we owe our own reason. Albert Einstein once said that in the laws of nature “there is revealed such a superior Reason that everything significant which has arisen out of human thought and arrangement is, in comparison with it, the merest empty reflection.” In what is most vast, in the world of heavenly bodies, we see revealed a powerful reason that holds the universe together. And we are penetrating ever deeper into what is smallest, into the cell and into the primordial units of life; here, too, we discover a reason that astounds us, such that we must say with Saint Bonaventure: “Whoever does not see here is blind. Whoever does not hear here is deaf. And whoever does not begin to adore here and to praise the creating Intelligence is dumb.”

Jacques Monod, who rejects as unscientific every kind of faith in God and who thinks that the world originated out of an interplay of chance and necessity, tells in the very work in which he attempts summarily to portray and justify his view of the world that, after attending the lectures which afterward appeared in book form, François Mauriac is supposed to have said: “What this professor wants to afflict on us is far more unbelievable than what we poor Christians were ever expected to believe.”

Monod does not dispute this. His thesis is that the entire ensemble of nature has arisen out of errors and dissonances. He cannot help but say himself that such a conception is in fact absurd. But, according to him, the scientific method demands that a question not be permitted to which the answer would have to be God. One can only say that a method of this sort is pathetic. God himself shines through the reasonableness of his creation. Physics and biology, and the natural sciences in general, have given us a new and unheard-of creation account with vast new images, which let us recognize the face of the Creator and which make us realize once again that at the very beginning and foundation of all being there is a creating Intelligence…" Pope Benedict XVI
 
I don’t think that’s fair. First off, there is no evolution in Intelligent Design, every-
thing is as it has always been since the beginning according to the “Designer.”

Also, “Darwinian Evolution” as you define it is completely random, no room for
God to exist. That is not the case, but a Creationist implication imposed upon
“Darwinian Evolution” because it never said “God” in the first place, and they
will never allow God to become part of “Darwinian Evolution.”

Darwin was a theist, even a Creationist at first,
who would have credited all of Creation to the
Creator God, and of course it does not effect
religion at all.

Oh and I’m sorry, but since is “Darwinian Evolution” “incompatible with the empirical data”?
Also, in what way is “Darwinian Evolution” “incompatible with the Teaching of the Catholic Church”?
ID does no claim everything is as it was and there has been no change. Where do you get this?

Evolution itself has no voice. It is evolutionists who use it to deny God.

Evolution is not observable, repeatable and predictable.
 
“We cannot haul 10,000 generations into the laboratory,” he said.
That’s it, my fellow Catholics.
Peace,
Ed
Actually, it is possible to haul 10,000 generations into the laboratory.

Last time I checked, Richard Lenski had hauled somewhere in the vicinity of 50,000 generations into the laboratory:

“The E. coli long-term evolution experiment is an ongoing study in experimental evolution led by Richard Lenski that has been tracking genetic changes in 12 initially identical populations of asexual Escherichia coli bacteria since 24 February 1988.[4] The populations reached the milestone of 50,000 generations in February 2010. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Lenski

Regarding Lenski’s monumental study, Michael Behe writes:

"The studies of malaria and HIV provide by far the best direct evidence of what evolution can do. The reason is simple: numbers. The greater the number of organisms, the greater the chance that a lucky mutation will come along, to be grabbed by natural selection. But other results with other organisms can help us find the edge of evolution, especially laboratory results where evolutionary changes can be followed closely. The largest, most ambitious, controlled laboratory evolutionary study was begun more than a decade ago in the laboratory of Professor Richard Lenski at Michigan State University. Lenski wanted to follow evolution in real time. He started a project to watch the unfolding of cultures of the common gut bacterium Escherichia coli. E. coli is a favorite laboratory organism that has been studied by many scientists for more than a century. The bug is easy to grow and has a very short generation span of as little as twenty minutes under favorable conditions. Like those of P. falciparum, H. sapiens, and HIV, the entire genome of E. coli has been sequenced.

Unlike malaria and HIV, which both have to fend for themselves in the wild and fight tooth and claw with the human immune system, the E. coli in Lenski’s lab were coddled. They had a stable environment, daily food, and no predators. But doesn’t evolution need a change in the environment to spur it on? Shouldn’t we expect little evolution of E. coli in the lab, where its environment is tightly controlled? No and no. One of the most important factors in an organism’s environment is the presence of other organisms. Even in a controlled lab culture where bacteria are warm and well fed, the bug that reproduces fastest or outcompetes others will dominate the population. Like gravity, Darwinian evolution never stops. But what does it yield? In the early 1990s Lenski and coworkers began to grow E. coli in flasks; the flasks reached their capacity of bacteria after about six or seven doublings. Every day he transferred a portion of the bugs to a fresh flask. By now over thirty thousand generations of E. coli, roughly the equivalent of a million years in the history of humans, have been born and died in Lenski’s lab. In each flask the bacteria would grow to a population size of about five hundred million. Over the whole course of the experiment, perhaps ten trillion, 1013, E. coli have been produced. Although ten trillion sounds like a lot (it’s probably more than the number of primates on the line from chimp to human), it’s virtually nothing compared to the number of malaria cells that have infested the earth. In the past fifty years there have been about a billion times as many of those as E. coli in the Michigan lab, which makes the study less valuable than our data on malaria. Nonetheless, the E. coli work has pointed in the same general direction. The lab bacteria performed much like the wild pathogens: A host of incoherent changes have slightly altered pre-existing systems. Nothing fundamentally new has been produced. 25 No new protein-protein interactions, no new molecular machines. As with thalassemia in humans, some large evolutionary advantages have been conferred by breaking things. Several populations of bacteria lost their ability to repair DNA. One of the most beneficial mutations, seen repeatedly in separate cultures, was the bacterium’s loss of the ability to make a sugar called ribose, which is a component of RNA. Another was a change in a regulatory gene called spoT, which affected en masse how fifty-nine other genes work, either increasing or decreasing their activity. One likely explanation for the net good effect of this very blunt mutation is that it turned off the energetically costly genes that make the bacterial flagellum, saving the cell some energy. Breaking some genes and turning others off, however, won’t make much of anything. After a while, beneficial changes from the experiment petered out. 26 The fact that malaria, with a billion fold more chances, gave a pattern very similar to the more modest studies on E. coli strongly suggests that that’s all Darwinism can do."

That’s it, my fellow Catholics.
 
But Pope Benedict, who seems to disagree with Pope John Paul on this issue, is not speaking infallibly, ex cathedra, and so is not representing the position of the Church in doctrinal matters. He is basically speaking as a layman. As a Catholic, you’re free to agree or disagree with him.
Not true. That is the Church’s position. He is not a layman. Even the secular media gets that.

But here’s another example:

“37. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.[12]”

Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis

Here’s a more recent example:

“64. Pope John Paul II stated some years ago that “new knowledge leads to the recognition of the theory of evolution as more than a hypothesis. It is indeed remarkable that this theory has been progressively accepted by researchers following a series of discoveries in various fields of knowledge”(“Message to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences on Evolution”1996). In continuity with previous twentieth century papal teaching on evolution (especially Pope Pius XII’s encyclical Humani Generis ), the Holy Father’s message acknowledges that there are “several theories of evolution” that are “materialist, reductionist and spiritualist” and thus incompatible with the Catholic faith. It follows that the message of Pope John Paul II cannot be read as a blanket approbation of all theories of evolution, including those of a neo-Darwinian provenance which explicitly deny to divine providence any truly causal role in the development of life in the universe. Mainly concerned with evolution as it “involves the question of man,” however, Pope John Paul’s message is specifically critical of materialistic theories of human origins and insists on the relevance of philosophy and theology for an adequate understanding of the “ontological leap” to the human which cannot be explained in purely scientific terms. The Church’s interest in evolution thus focuses particularly on “the conception of man” who, as created in the image of God, “cannot be subordinated as a pure means or instrument either to the species or to society.” As a person created in the image of God, he is capable of forming relationships of communion with other persons and with the triune God, as well as of exercising sovereignty and stewardship in the created universe. The implication of these remarks is that theories of evolution and of the origin of the universe possess particular theological interest when they touch on the doctrines of the creation ex nihilo and the creation of man in the image of God.”

Permission given for publication by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

So, it’s all there. Ready for anyone with eyes to see that the Church can pronounce on issues of science directly. It is also quite clear that when the Church writes about this subject, it is not just from a theological perspective but with an understanding of what each of the theories is and which are incompatible with the Catholic faith.

Peace,
Ed
 
Evolution is not an atheistic doctrine, so I’d appreciate it if you quit talking about atheists, arch-atheists, Dawkins, etc, etc, etc.
Of course there is an Intelligent Designer, a God, who created all things, but that is by far not the issue. As far as science can
tell, everything was by chance, which is a perfectly valid statement for science to make, seeing how it is limited to the physical
world. NOW we can explain WHY everything is the way it is because we can say that GOD did it. There is absolutely no need
of the dishonesty of Intelligent Design, saying Evolution isn’t true, GOD DID IT, how?, GOD DID IT, by what process?, GOD DID
IT, and so forth. If Creationists don’t like that Evolution doesn’t talk about God, Creator, Designer, Intelligent Designer, TOUGH !!!
You have just made a case that science has just disqualified itself. Why then on earth should we limit ourselves to the limited scientific view you just admitted was lacking when including ID would enrich it? We could be so much further ahead.
 
Actually, it is possible to haul 10,000 generations into the laboratory.

Last time I checked, Richard Lenski had hauled somewhere in the vicinity of 50,000 generations into the laboratory:

“The E. coli long-term evolution experiment is an ongoing study in experimental evolution led by Richard Lenski that has been tracking genetic changes in 12 initially identical populations of asexual Escherichia coli bacteria since 24 February 1988.[4] The populations reached the milestone of 50,000 generations in February 2010. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Lenski

Regarding Lenski’s monumental study, Michael Behe writes:

"The studies of malaria and HIV provide by far the best direct evidence of what evolution can do. The reason is simple: numbers. The greater the number of organisms, the greater the chance that a lucky mutation will come along, to be grabbed by natural selection. But other results with other organisms can help us find the edge of evolution, especially laboratory results where evolutionary changes can be followed closely. The largest, most ambitious, controlled laboratory evolutionary study was begun more than a decade ago in the laboratory of Professor Richard Lenski at Michigan State University. Lenski wanted to follow evolution in real time. He started a project to watch the unfolding of cultures of the common gut bacterium Escherichia coli. E. coli is a favorite laboratory organism that has been studied by many scientists for more than a century. The bug is easy to grow and has a very short generation span of as little as twenty minutes under favorable conditions. Like those of P. falciparum, H. sapiens, and HIV, the entire genome of E. coli has been sequenced.

Unlike malaria and HIV, which both have to fend for themselves in the wild and fight tooth and claw with the human immune system, the E. coli in Lenski’s lab were coddled. They had a stable environment, daily food, and no predators. But doesn’t evolution need a change in the environment to spur it on? Shouldn’t we expect little evolution of E. coli in the lab, where its environment is tightly controlled? No and no. One of the most important factors in an organism’s environment is the presence of other organisms. Even in a controlled lab culture where bacteria are warm and well fed, the bug that reproduces fastest or outcompetes others will dominate the population. Like gravity, Darwinian evolution never stops. But what does it yield? In the early 1990s Lenski and coworkers began to grow E. coli in flasks; the flasks reached their capacity of bacteria after about six or seven doublings. Every day he transferred a portion of the bugs to a fresh flask. By now over thirty thousand generations of E. coli, roughly the equivalent of a million years in the history of humans, have been born and died in Lenski’s lab. In each flask the bacteria would grow to a population size of about five hundred million. Over the whole course of the experiment, perhaps ten trillion, 1013, E. coli have been produced. Although ten trillion sounds like a lot (it’s probably more than the number of primates on the line from chimp to human), it’s virtually nothing compared to the number of malaria cells that have infested the earth. In the past fifty years there have been about a billion times as many of those as E. coli in the Michigan lab, which makes the study less valuable than our data on malaria. Nonetheless, the E. coli work has pointed in the same general direction. The lab bacteria performed much like the wild pathogens: A host of incoherent changes have slightly altered pre-existing systems. Nothing fundamentally new has been produced. 25 No new protein-protein interactions, no new molecular machines. As with thalassemia in humans, some large evolutionary advantages have been conferred by breaking things. Several populations of bacteria lost their ability to repair DNA. One of the most beneficial mutations, seen repeatedly in separate cultures, was the bacterium’s loss of the ability to make a sugar called ribose, which is a component of RNA. Another was a change in a regulatory gene called spoT, which affected en masse how fifty-nine other genes work, either increasing or decreasing their activity. One likely explanation for the net good effect of this very blunt mutation is that it turned off the energetically costly genes that make the bacterial flagellum, saving the cell some energy. Breaking some genes and turning others off, however, won’t make much of anything. After a while, beneficial changes from the experiment petered out. 26 The fact that malaria, with a billion fold more chances, gave a pattern very similar to the more modest studies on E. coli strongly suggests that that’s all Darwinism can do."
Bacteria and viruses are not people. They have built-in capabilities to deal with outside threats. Capabilities human beings do not possess.

The Church is very clear that there was an individual Adam, not a group, just one. On a forum called Catholic Answers, only the Church has the complete answer regarding human origins. The origin of man.

Peace,
Ed
 
Not true. That is the Church’s position. He is not a layman. Even the secular media gets that.Peace,
Ed
Darwinian Evolution is not the Church’s position.

You have to differentiate between Random/Godless/Darwinian Evolution and Intelligent Design (also known as Non-random Evolution).

Big difference.

And I have yet to see an infallible document that DEFINES what exactly the Church MEANS by “evolution.”

There is no room for equivocation in this debate and lets stop pretending that the Church has issued an infallible pronouncement on this matter when she clearly has not.
 
Darwinian Evolution is not the Church’s position.

You have to differentiate between Random/Godless/Darwinian Evolution and Intelligent Design (also known as Non-random Evolution).

Big difference.

And I have yet to see an infallible document that DEFINES what exactly the Church MEANS by “evolution.”

There is no room for equivocation in this debate and lets stop pretending that the Church has issued an infallible pronouncement on this matter when she clearly has not.
Officially the church has used the word loosely. She as well as most others admits adaptation. She has allowed research as long as she gets the last word. (Humani Generis)
 
Bacteria and viruses are not people. They have built-in capabilities to deal with outside threats. Capabilities human beings do not possess.

The Church is very clear that there was an individual Adam, not a group, just one. On a forum called Catholic Answers, only the Church has the complete answer regarding human origins. The origin of man.

Peace,
Ed
Yeah, I agree, Adam was one man. Not sure where you are going with that one.

Adam’s body did not “evolve” by Darwinian Evolution. That was my point.

In fact, the Church has never infallibly stated how Adam’s body was formed: it could have been via some sort of Non-Random evolutionary event or it could have been a special creation. I think the writings of the Early Church Fathers favor the special creation of Adam’s body heavily and that is where my money is. But in either case, Adam’s body was most certainly not created by Darwinian processes.
 
Darwinian Evolution is not the Church’s position.

You have to differentiate between Random/Godless/Darwinian Evolution and Intelligent Design (also known as Non-random Evolution).

Big difference.

And I have yet to see an infallible document that DEFINES what exactly the Church MEANS by “evolution.”

There is no room for equivocation in this debate and lets stop pretending that the Church has issued an infallible pronouncement on this matter when she clearly has not.
From a letter sent to Pope Benedict:

"This week, Cardinal Christoph Schönborn, archbishop of Vienna, however, appeared to dangerously redefine the Church’s view on Evolution. In an essay, also published in the New York Times (see attached), he claimed that “Evolution in the Neo-Darwinian sense… is not true”. Moreover, he argued that if divine design was not “overwhelmingly evident” then the associated claims must be viewed as ideology, and not science. He attacked not only Neo-Darwinism, but also the multiverse hypothesis of modern cosmology, both of which he claimed were “invented to avoid the overwhelming evidence for purpose and design found in modern science”. Equally worrisome, in his effort to claim a line between the theory of evolution and religious faith, Cardinal Schšnborn dismissed the marvelous 1996 message of Pope John Paul II to the Pontifical Academy, calling it “rather vague and unimportant”.

"It is vitally important, however, that in these difficult and contentious times the Catholic Church not build a new divide, long ago eradicated, between the scientific method and religious belief. We are writing to you today to request that you clarify once again the Church’s position on Evolution and Science, that you reaffirm the remarkable statements of Pope John Paul II and the International Theological Commission, so that it will be clear that Cardinal Schönborn’s remarks do not reflect the views of the Holy See.

"We thank you for your consideration to this request, and wish you continued strength and wisdom as you continue to lead the Catholic Church in these difficult times.

"Sincerely,

"Lawrence M. Krauss (Ambrose Swasey Professor of Physics, Professor of Astronomy, and Director, Center for Education and Research in Cosmology and Astrophysics, Case Western Reserve University)

"Francisco Ayala (University Professor and Donal Bren Professor of Biological Sciences, Ecology, and Evolutionary Biology, Professor of Philosophy, and Professor of Logic and Philosophy of Science, University of Calfornia, Irvine)

“Kenneth R. Miller (Prof of Biology, Brown University)”

Peace,
Ed
 
Evolution is not an atheistic doctrine, so I’d appreciate it if you quit talking about atheists, arch-atheists, Dawkins, etc, etc, etc.
Of course there is an Intelligent Designer, a God, who created all things, but that is by far not the issue. As far as science can
tell, everything was by chance, which is a perfectly valid statement for science to make, seeing how it is limited to the physical
world. NOW we can explain WHY everything is the way it is because we can say that GOD did it. There is absolutely no need
of the dishonesty of Intelligent Design, saying Evolution isn’t true, GOD DID IT, how?, GOD DID IT, by what process?, GOD DID
IT, and so forth. If Creationists don’t like that Evolution doesn’t talk about God, Creator, Designer, Intelligent Designer, TOUGH !!!
There you go again, using that term “Evolution” equivocally.

What do you mean by “Evolution?”

Do you mean Natural Selection acting on Random Mutations or do you mean Natural Selection action on Non-Random Mutations?

You act like it is an established scientific fact that Natural Selection acting on Random Mutation is responsible for complex, intelligent Life. :rotfl:

And yes, Darwinian Evolution is really just a fancy form of Atheism. It goes all the way back to Epicurus and his concept of the eternal universe. Darwin simply applied Epicurus’ Materialism to biology. Richard Dawkins has applied it to the popular culture. But when you remove the mask, it is nothing more than a form of naked, militant Atheism.
 
There you go again, using that term “Evolution” equivocally.

What do you mean by “Evolution?”

Do you mean Natural Selection acting on Random Mutations or do you mean Natural Selection action on Non-Random Mutations?

You act like it is an established scientific fact that Natural Selection acting on Random Mutation is responsible for complex, intelligent Life. :rotfl:

And yes, Darwinian Evolution is really just a fancy form of Atheism. It goes all the way back to Epicurus and his concept of the eternal universe. Darwin simply applied Epicurus’ Materialism to biology. Richard Dawkins has applied it to the popular culture. But when you remove the mask, it is nothing more than a form of naked, militant Atheism.
And the church has been defending against evolution since the beginning.
 
From a letter sent to Pope Benedict:

"This week, Cardinal Christoph Schönborn, archbishop of Vienna, however, appeared to dangerously redefine the Church’s view on Evolution. In an essay, also published in the New York Times (see attached), he claimed that “Evolution in the Neo-Darwinian sense… is not true”. Moreover, he argued that if divine design was not “overwhelmingly evident” then the associated claims must be viewed as ideology, and not science. He attacked not only Neo-Darwinism, but also the multiverse hypothesis of modern cosmology, both of which he claimed were “invented to avoid the overwhelming evidence for purpose and design found in modern science”. Equally worrisome, in his effort to claim a line between the theory of evolution and religious faith, Cardinal Schšnborn dismissed the marvelous 1996 message of Pope John Paul II to the Pontifical Academy, calling it “rather vague and unimportant”.

"It is vitally important, however, that in these difficult and contentious times the Catholic Church not build a new divide, long ago eradicated, between the scientific method and religious belief. We are writing to you today to request that you clarify once again the Church’s position on Evolution and Science, that you reaffirm the remarkable statements of Pope John Paul II and the International Theological Commission, so that it will be clear that Cardinal Schönborn’s remarks do not reflect the views of the Holy See.

"We thank you for your consideration to this request, and wish you continued strength and wisdom as you continue to lead the Catholic Church in these difficult times.

"Sincerely,

"Lawrence M. Krauss (Ambrose Swasey Professor of Physics, Professor of Astronomy, and Director, Center for Education and Research in Cosmology and Astrophysics, Case Western Reserve University)

"Francisco Ayala (University Professor and Donal Bren Professor of Biological Sciences, Ecology, and Evolutionary Biology, Professor of Philosophy, and Professor of Logic and Philosophy of Science, University of Calfornia, Irvine)

“Kenneth R. Miller (Prof of Biology, Brown University)”

Peace,
Ed
Who are Lawrence Krauss, Francisco Ayala, and Kenneth Miller?

Are they members of the Magisterium?
 
Who are Lawrence Krauss, Francisco Ayala, and Kenneth Miller?

Are they members of the Magisterium?
I think a better question is: As scientists, why should they care about what the Church hierarchy thinks regarding this topic?

Peace,
Ed
 
ID does no claim everything is as it was and there has been no change. Where do you get this?
Hold on to your jaw . . . :eek:“Creation mean that the various forms of life began abruptly through the agency
of an intelligent creator with their distinctive features already intact. Fish with
fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks and wings, etc.”
– Of Pandas and People 1st Edition 1987

“Intelligent design means that various forms of life began abruptly through an
intelligent agency, with their distinctive features already intact. Fish with fins
and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, wings, etc.”
– Of Pandas and People 2nd Edition 1987

“Sudden emergence holds that various forms of life began with their distinctive
features already intact, fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers and wings,
animals with fur and mammary glands.”
– Design of Life 2007
Is that not just sad? :dts:
Evolution itself has no voice. It is evolutionists who use it to deny God.
What do you mean “Evolution itself has no voice”?
Some, even many, “evolutionists” as you insist on
calling them, do in fact use evolution to deny God,
but the official SCIENTIFIC position on evolution is
making NO statement about God, not for God, not
against God, NO statement about God. Such ac–
cusations are Creationist constructs.
Evolution is not observable, repeatable and predictable.
Good Links Answering
this FALSE statement:home.comcast.net/~chris.s/evolcrea.html
talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-god.html
 
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