One-third of Americans reject evolution, poll shows

  • Thread starter Thread starter gilliam
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
It is explained through going to this website: Magis Center of Reason and Faith
The caption speaks of “transcendence from contemporary science.” If you want to change the current scientific paradigm into another scientific paradigm, you would have to do that first before you combine faith and science. One may combine faith and reason but NOT faith and science because the latter is based on a specific scientific method which faith by its very definition does not have. Besides, this is an evangelization website whose mission is to make people believers and most probably Christian believers. Is that the mission of IDvolution as well?
 
ID is either a philosophy or a science, it can’t be both.

Faith and “ID ‘science’ Reasoning”, NO.
“Real science” is simply observing and describing. And there is not much of that in this thread.
How does science move from observations to what is entailed by those observations? By a process of reasoning, perhaps? Philosophy? Logic?

Deductive Reasoning:
  1. Mammals are wam blooded, hairy animals that feed their live-borne young with milk produced by the adult female.
  2. Elephants are warm-blooded, animals with hair that feed their live borne young with milk produced by the adult females.
    Therefore, elephants are mammals.
How was the term mammal arrived at?

Inductive Reasoning
There are animals that share these common characteristics
  • warm-blooded
  • hair covering part of their bodies
  • live bearers
  • females produce milk
Hey, let’s call this group “mammals” as distinct from that group of warm blooded things that lay eggs, have feathers and wings. Hmmm… Birds?
What about this thing with a bill that lays eggs and has no wings? Hmmm I’m stumped.
Let’s watch it until it decides what it wants to be. We’ll conduct several trials. If it migrates more times to the word “mammal” we’ll call it that. If to “bird”, we’ll call it that.
Yup, that’s how it’s done without reasoning, but strictly by “observing and describing.”

Perhaps, there’s too much of that happening on this thread?
 
Imagine, if you will an alien species originating in a much denser galaxy and planet than the earth we find ourselves upon. Owing to the incredibly dense environment of their home planet, this species evolved senses and developed scientific equipment suited only to the observation, detection and analysis of only very dense materials…
If that really happened, I would suggest that that is the dumbest species of alien in the universe for failing to realize that these “mechanical beings” don’t actually reproduce.
 
“Real science” is simply observing and describing. And there is not much of that in this thread.

Example: The discussion regarding chance. Some accept those numbers as truth. Well, if those numbers don’t reflect reality, a true scientist goes back to the drawing board and reworks the theory until it fits reality. Those that simply dismiss everything wholesale because the number may not fit reality are neither scientists nor interested in anything other than their own personal opinion of what “truth” is.
You really don’t understand how scientists work. Let’s apply that to this particular case.

One of the numbers in Dembski’s argument doesn’t make sense at all. No one on the forum could explain why it might remotely make sense. Dembski himself refers to a document that said the number had to do with a time frame dealing with the Big Bang where physical laws breaks down - having nothing to do with transitions in matter. And this number is absolutely essential to make his entire thesis work.

A scientist points out the flaws in the argument, usually when an author goes to publish an article in a peer-reviewed journal. Now, in this case, it’s not the scientist’s fault that it is a fatal flaw that knocks down an entire house of cards, as it seems to be an entirely critical item. You say a scientist would go back to he drawing board and figure it out. That isn’t true. They would point out the flaw with the expectation that the originator would fix it, if it could be fixed. They might help if they can and feel that the model has some redeeming value. Or they might determine that the model does not accurately reflect reality and not pursue it further. But the obligation to make something work to be accepted by the scientific community comes from the originator, Dr. Dembski - not with the larger community.
 
If that really happened, I would suggest that that is the dumbest species of alien in the universe for failing to realize that these “mechanical beings” don’t actually reproduce.
Oh, they reproduce in large incubators by a process the aliens call “amalgamation.” It is a kind of complex crystallization process. Instead of molecules collecting to form crystals, individual parts crystallize to form more and more complex parts which then “colonize” to form the final life stage. Kind of like jellyfish, to us, I guess. It is well documented because the alien scientists have seen it occur over and over again on the different land masses we know as United States, Japan, Korea, Germany, Italy.

Remember that science is strictly “observe and describe” and Occam’s Razor strictly forbids the alien scientists from speculating about anything beyond what simple observation and testing tells them about these metallic life forms. It would be ridiculous to posit some other “supernatural” soft body form actually designing and building these creatures. That would entail Intelligent Design. Ugh! :mad:
 
It is explained through going to this website: Magis Center of Reason and Faith
The caption speaks of “transcendence from contemporary science.” If you want to change the current scientific paradigm into another scientific paradigm, you would have to do that first before you combine faith and science. One may combine faith and reason but NOT faith and science because the latter is based on a specific scientific method which faith by its very definition does not have. Besides, this is an evangelization website whose mission is to make people believers and most probably Christian believers. Is that the mission of IDvolution as well?
Fr. Robert Spitzer was a guest on CNN’s Larry King Live talking about physics with Stephen Hawking and a couple other world-renowned expert physicists. The website has enough science information to fill more than one book or perhaps an encyclopedia. I have one of Fr. Robert Spitzer’s books, New Proofs for the Existence of God: Contributions of Contemporary Physics and Philosophy, and the math in it is way above anything I’ve ever seen in school. There is no way you could have judged that website fairly with only a quick glance at it. My comments about evolution didn’t come from him.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
Honestly, I haven’t read every page that’s been argued here, but:

Here are some working definitions of hypothesis, theory, and law in the scientific realm:

A hypothesis: A possible explanation of a phenomena based on observations and subject to scientific testing. A hypothesis can never be proven, only “supported” by the evidence, though evidence can disprove a hypothesis.

A theory: A well-accepted hypothesis that has withstood the test of time. It has been tested repeatedly, and possibly tweaked to fit new evidence.

Scientific fact: An observed phenomenon/characteristic that is repeatable (e.g., the sky is blue; pure water freezes when the temperature drops to 32 degrees F or 0 degrees C; when an inanimate object is let go from your hand, it will fall to the ground).

Scientific law: A detailed description (often mathematical) of an observed phenomenon (a scientific fact). The description merely describes the phenomenon - it does not attempt to claim how the phenomenon works. Scientific laws are useful in making calculations in the real world, but they don’t explain why the phenomena happen.

Scientific facts and laws are the “what” of science, hypotheses and theories attempt to answer “how”. In many cases, such as quantum physics, the “how” is currently impossible to determine; in other cases, such as evolution (which, according to the scientific community is a “fact” or a “law”, not a theory - as Judas Thaddeus noted earlier, many scientists have observed one species of bacteria becoming an entirely different species of bacteria - no longer able to share genetic material with the parent species), the phenomena is observed, but when speciation happens is sometimes hard to tell.

Regardless, Catholics are allowed to have wide perspectives on evolution (and the Big Bang Theory, etc.). What we should not forget, though, is that the Church does not see a contradiction between evolution and the Gospel. If God decided to use evolution as a tool to create us, who are we to argue? Who’s to say that it wasn’t God Himself who directed the evolution by taking DNA from each parent and recombining it to create the offspring that He desired? Somewhere along the line, the Homo sapiens species became self-aware. Scientists don’t know how this happened, only that it obviously did happen, as the original Homo sapiens were not self-aware, but we are. Could not this “attainment of self-awareness”, as scientists call it, be the infusion of the immortal soul? Or is it the Fall from Grace?

It’s important to note that the so-called “Father of Genetics”, Gregor Mendel, was a Benedictine Catholic monk. The man who came up with the “Big Bang Theory” was a Catholic priest. Some of the greatest breakthroughs in embryology and adult stem-cell research are currently being done by Dominicans. St. Albertus Magnus, a Dominican himself, is considered the patron saint of natural scientists. Our Holy Father, Pope Francis, is a chemist by trade, and the archbishop of Portland, Oregon, Alexander Sample, is an engineer by trade (getting his BS and MSE from a state-run university). The Catholic Church has never stated that one must abandon reason in order to remain faithful - on the contrary, there are many Catholic scientists who see science as a way to understand God’s wonders. The more they research, the more awe-struck they are by God’s work.

By the way - 6000 years ago (about 4000 BC) might not fit with the beginnings of humankind, but it is remarkably close to the beginnings of human civilization during the Neolithic Age.
 
…A theory: A well-accepted hypothesis that has withstood the test of time. It has been tested repeatedly, and possibly tweaked to fit new evidence…
I’m sorry, but I can’t accept the first part of your definition of the word Theory.

A theory in science is a well–substantiated explanation of some aspect
of the natural world, based on knowledge that has been repeatedly con-
firmed through observation and experimentation.

The latter part I have no qualms.
 
Regardless, Catholics are allowed to have wide perspectives on evolution (and the Big Bang Theory, etc.). What we should not forget, though, is that the Church does not see a contradiction between evolution and the Gospel. If God decided to use evolution as a tool to create us, who are we to argue? Who’s to say that it wasn’t God Himself who directed the evolution by taking DNA from each parent and recombining it to create the offspring that He desired? Somewhere along the line, the Homo sapiens species became self-aware. Scientists don’t know how this happened, only that it obviously did happen, as the original Homo sapiens were not self-aware, but we are. Could not this “attainment of self-awareness”, as scientists call it, be the infusion of the immortal soul? Or is it the Fall from Grace?
GOD BLESS YOU! :highprayer:
Those last questions you posed are really interesting and would make a great thread.

Not THAT is where Faith and Reason meet people. 👍
 
Human reasoning is always the weak link. We reason science.
But don’t we reason our religious beliefs as well? Isn’t the difference between dogma and doctrine a matter of divinely revealed truths vs. our human understanding of God’s revelation?

Don’t we all interpret the Bible according to reason? Even persons who claim to read it literally still use reason to determine which passage should take precedence, or apply common sense when deciding which passages to ignore.

Religion is not free from the fallibility of human reason. Although there are certain divinely revealed truths, much of Christianity is our very human interpretation of God’s will, as revealed to us.
 
But don’t we reason our religious beliefs as well? Isn’t the difference between dogma and doctrine a matter of divinely revealed truths vs. our human understanding of God’s revelation?

Don’t we all interpret the Bible according to reason? Even persons who claim to read it literally still use reason to determine which passage should take precedence, or apply common sense when deciding which passages to ignore.

Religion is not free from the fallibility of human reason. Although there are certain divinely revealed truths, much of Christianity is our very human interpretation of God’s will, as revealed to us.
👍

To call a God-given gift a “weak link” is, in some way, an insult to the Creator.

“Faith and Reason are the two wings on which the human soul rises to contemplate the Divine” (Bl. John Paul II; I’m paraphrasing.) 🙂
 
Science tells us the How’s of our world, and religion tells us the Why’s.

One will never be able to fill in for the other, and both are absolutely necessary. When both are taken with reason and logic, they create a beautiful and harmonious whole that only exemplifies just how wonderful our God really is.

I have no problems believing that, at some point, God instilled into our ancestors an immortal soul, thus creating the first of us. Evolution is reasonable and sensible, and so is God’s hand in all of it.
 
This is a ridiculous standard. Why do believe that something that happened over millions of years, possibly by chance, must happen in the lifetime of a human being, otherwise it isn’t true.

Do you apply such a standard to your faith? If not, your using a double standard.
Then if it is not empirical, then it is a possible explanation.
 
But don’t we reason our religious beliefs as well? Isn’t the difference between dogma and doctrine a matter of divinely revealed truths vs. our human understanding of God’s revelation?

Don’t we all interpret the Bible according to reason? Even persons who claim to read it literally still use reason to determine which passage should take precedence, or apply common sense when deciding which passages to ignore.

Religion is not free from the fallibility of human reason. Although there are certain divinely revealed truths, much of Christianity is our very human interpretation of God’s will, as revealed to us.
To a degree. Revelation though stands firm and cannot change. Science being provisional does change. However, one can have faith from Revelation itself without reasoning it, by acceptance.
 
Science tells us the How’s of our world, and religion tells us the Why’s.

One will never be able to fill in for the other, and both are absolutely necessary. When both are taken with reason and logic, they create a beautiful and harmonious whole that only exemplifies just how wonderful our God really is.

I have no problems believing that, at some point, God instilled into our ancestors an immortal soul, thus creating the first of us. Evolution is reasonable and sensible, and so is God’s hand in all of it.
Do humans walk among us without original sin?
 
Science tells us the How’s of our world, and religion tells us the Why’s.

One will never be able to fill in for the other, and both are absolutely necessary. When both are taken with reason and logic, they create a beautiful and harmonious whole that only exemplifies just how wonderful our God really is.

I have no problems believing that, at some point, God instilled into our ancestors an immortal soul, thus creating the first of us. Evolution is reasonable and sensible, and so is God’s hand in all of it.
Even more harmonious is IDvolution. :)👍
 
You really don’t understand how scientists work. Let’s apply that to this particular case.
I am a scientist. 👍

Not only that, but one of my jobs right out of college was editing scientific journals. Try again, this time with new assumptions. 😃
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top