One-third of Americans reject evolution, poll shows

  • Thread starter Thread starter gilliam
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I suggest reading the entire article.

Is Intelligent Design Testable?
We’ve been over, verify Crea… “Intelligent Design” using the Scientific Community
as the measuring stick, don’t verify “Intelligent Design” with “Intelligent Design”.

Access Research Network is a Creationist organization, and you are using their
website to prove Cre… “Intelligent Design.” Can you not find a scientific source?

Forgive the Analogy:I do not go to a Mormon to tell me whether Mormonism is Christian or not.
I go to the Christian community to tell me whether Mormonism is Christian or not.

So, here’s the challenge: Prove to me that the General Consensus of the
Scientific Community is that Intelligent Design is a science and is testable.
 
We’ve been over, verify Crea… “Intelligent Design” using the Scientific Community
as the measuring stick, don’t verify “Intelligent Design” with “Intelligent Design”.

Access Research Network is a Creationist organization, and you are using their
website to prove Cre… “Intelligent Design.” Can you not find a scientific source?

Forgive the Analogy:I do not go to a Mormon to tell me whether Mormonism is Christian or not.
I go to the Christian community to tell me whether Mormonism is Christian or not.
So, here’s the challenge: Prove to me that the General Consensus of the
Scientific Community is that Intelligent Design is a science and is testable.
For once, just argue the argument not the site. By the same token I want to verify evolution in an ID site. Makes no sense. 😦

I am convinced you will not use your own reasoning to assess any arguments. And you will not accept ID the science until it is posted on an evo site. Fat chance of that happening anytime soon. :nope:
 
Based on reading the linked material, the obvious conclusion is ID must never be true. It can’t be true. It appears that dreaded religious ideas might take hold, and then… more people who prefer the wisdom the Church teaches to the dogmatic predictors of the future. Religion must be removed from people’s minds and replaced by what men believe. They see through one eye but not the other. So far, the most vocal of the posters are demanding religion threatens all and needs to be stopped, not just with the topic but everywhere.

As far as I’m concerned, design is a far better explanation than what’s currently being taught. I look around and see design in plants and animals. Dogs come in many shapes and sizes but they are all dogs. Man may have started with other skull shapes, but certain types of men have disappeared.
That is a dishonest over-exaggeration, and you know it. We are not saying that Religion
is bad, but it is not science, and it must remain as such. The Roman Catholic Church,
even the Vatican would not side with your argument there. Religion is Religion, Science
is Science, two completely separate things.
 
I suggest reading the entire article.

Is Intelligent Design Testable?

FALSIFIABILITY: Is intelligent design falsifiable? Is Darwinism falsifiable? Yes to the first question, no to the second. Intelligent design is eminently falsifiable. Specified complexity in general and irreducible complexity in biology are within the theory of intelligent design the key markers of intelligent agency. If it could be shown that biological systems like the bacterial flagellum that are wonderfully complex, elegant, and integrated could have been formed by a gradual Darwinian process (which by definition is non-telic), then intelligent design would be falsified on the general grounds that one doesn’t invoke intelligent causes when purely natural causes will do. In that case Occam’s razor finishes off intelligent design quite nicely.
On the other hand, falsifying Darwinism seems effectively impossible. To do so one must show that no conceivable Darwinian pathway could have led to a given biological structure. What’s more, Darwinists are apt to retreat into the murk of historical contingency to shore up their theory. For instance, Allen Orr in his critique of Behe’s work shortly after Darwin’s Black Box appeared remarked, “We have no guarantee that we can reconstruct the history of a biochemical pathway.” What he conceded with one hand, however, he was quick to retract with the other. He added, “But even if we can’t, its irreducible complexity cannot count against its gradual evolution.”
The fact is that for complex systems like the bacterial flagellum no biologist has or is anywhere close to reconstructing its history in Darwinian terms. Is Darwinian theory therefore falsified? Hardly. I have yet to witness one committed Darwinist concede that any feature of nature might even in principle provide countervailing evidence to Darwinism. In place of such a concession one is instead always treated to an admission of ignorance. Thus it’s not that Darwinism has been falsified or disconfirmed, but that we simply don’t know enough about the biological system in question and its historical context to determine how the Darwinian mechanism might have produced it.
For instance, to neutralize the challenge that the irreducible complexity of the bacterial flagellum raises against Darwinism, Ken Miller employs the following argument from ignorance. Like the rest of the biological community, Miller doesn’t know how the bacterial flagellum originated. The biological community’s ignorance about the flagellum, however, doesn’t end with its origin but extends to its very functioning. For instance, according to David DeRosier, “The mechanism of the flagellar motor remains a mystery.” Miller takes this admission of ignorance by DeRosier and uses it to advantage. In Finding Darwin’s God he writes: “Before [Darwinian] evolution is excoriated for failing to explain the evolution of the flagellum, I’d request that the scientific community at least be allowed to figure out how its various parts work.” But in the article by DeRosier that Miller cites,** Miller conveniently omits the following quote: “More so than other motors, the flagellum resembles a machine designed by a human.” **
So apparently we know enough about the bacterial flagellum to know that it is designed or at least design-like. Indeed, we know what most of its individual parts do. Moreover, we know that the flagellum is irreducibly complex. Far from being a weakness of irreducible complexity as Miller suggests, it is a strength of the concept that one can determine whether a system is irreducibly complex without knowing the precise role that each part in the system plays (one need only knock out individual parts and see if function is preserved; knowing what exactly the individual parts do is not necessary). Miller’s appeal to ignorance obscures just how much we know about the flagellum, how compelling the case is for its design, and how unfalsifiable Darwinism is when Darwinists proclaim that the Darwinian selection mechanism can account for it despite the absence of any identifiable biochemical pathway.
:clapping::yup::bowdown::bounce:
 
That is a dishonest over-exaggeration, and you know it. We are not saying that Religion
is bad, but it is not science, and it must remain as such. The Roman Catholic Church,
even the Vatican would not side with your argument there. Religion is Religion, Science
is Science, two completely separate things.
Pope Benedict:

"Monod nonetheless finds the possibility for evolution in the fact that in the very propagation of the project there can be mistakes in the act of transmission. Because nature is conservative, these mistakes, once having come into existence, are carried on. Such mistakes can add up, and from the adding up of mistakes something new can arise. Now an astonishing conclusion follows: It was in this way that the whole world of living creatures, and human beings themselves, came into existence. We are the product of “haphazard mistakes.”
Code:
"What response shall we make to this view? It is the affair of the natural sciences to explain how the tree of life in particular continues to grow and how new branches shoot out from it. This is not a matter for faith. But we must have the audacity to say that the great projects of the living creation are not the products of chance and error. Nor are they the products of a selective process to which divine predicates can be attributed in illogical, unscientific, and even mythic fashion. The great projects of the living creation point to a creating Reason and show us a creating Intelligence, and they do so more luminously and radiantly today than ever before. Thus we can say today with a new certitude and joyousness that the human being is indeed a divine project, which only the creating Intelligence was strong and great and audacious enough to conceive of. Human beings are not a mistake but something willed; they are the fruit of love."
I’ll stick with the Church.

Peace,
Ed
 
For once, just argue the argument not the site. By the same token I want to verify evolution in an ID site. Makes no sense. 😦
Did the analogy not help out? It makes sense to you that if a
Mormon said that Mormonism
is Christian, then it must be so.
Now truth be told, I am not a very scientifically-savvy person, so I will not
read their arguments because I may become easily convinced or at least
really confused. Many Intelligent Design advocates who fight for having it
taught in public schools will often say something to the effect of “Let the
kids decide which is more reasonable.” So science becomes an opinion
in the world of Creationism, and I will not be party to it.

This is why I turn to the Scientific Community, for just as we Catholics
have Popes, Bishops, the Catechism, and the Bible to help us in what
is true, so too does Science have a league of honest scientists, scien-
tific journals, testable ideas, etc.
I am convinced you will not use your own reasoning to assess any arguments. And you will not accept ID the science until it is posted on an evo site. Fat chance of that happening anytime soon. :nope:
I know a thing or two, here and there, but I cannot read
and hope to sufficiently argue against an entire body of
work of religious views using scientific jargon.

Maybe someone here who is smarter.

As for me, I’ll consider Intelligent Design as soon as I hear that
the General Consensus of the Scientific Community accepts it.
 
Given the latest surveys religion is systematically being removed from the public eye. The demon has been somewhat successful. But he won’t win.
You’re not implying that anti-ID and or pro-evolution is of the Devil, are you?
(ASKING, not accusing)
 
Did the analogy not help out? It makes sense to you that if a
Mormon said that Mormonism
is Christian, then it must be so.
Now truth be told, I am not a very scientifically-savvy person, so I will not
read their arguments because I may become easily convinced or at least
really confused. Many Intelligent Design advocates who fight for having it
taught in public schools will often say something to the effect of “Let the
kids decide which is more reasonable.” So science becomes an opinion
in the world of Creationism, and I will not be party to it.

This is why I turn to the Scientific Community, for just as we Catholics
have Popes, Bishops, the Catechism, and the Bible to help us in what
is true, so too does Science have a league of honest scientists, scien-
tific journals, testable ideas, etc.

I know a thing or two, here and there, but I cannot read
and hope to sufficiently argue against an entire body of
work of religious views using scientific jargon.

Maybe someone here who is smarter.

As for me, I’ll consider Intelligent Design as soon as I hear that
the General Consensus of the Scientific Community accepts it.
You could have said this many hundred posts ago and saved a lot of typing.🙂
 
As for me, I’ll consider Intelligent Design as soon as I hear that
the General Consensus of the Scientific Community accepts it.
Scientific consensus does not determine scientific truth.

The empirical data is what determines scientific truth; scientific truth is independent of the consensus of the scientific community.

Scientific consensus once told the world that there was this thing called the “ether.” James Clerk Maxwell even precisely calculated the ether’s density and coefficient of rigidity. But guess what? The ether never existed. It was a fairy tale.

Just as the best physicists of the 19th century preached the fairy tale called “ether,” so Darwinists today preach this fairy tale that says random, chance processes are responsible for the irreducible complexity found in biology.
 
Yes, consensus means little to nothing in science. The scientific method is everything.
 
Pope Benedict:

"Monod nonetheless finds the possibility for evolution in the fact that in the very propagation of the project there can be mistakes in the act of transmission. Because nature is conservative, these mistakes, once having come into existence, are carried on. Such mistakes can add up, and from the adding up of mistakes something new can arise. Now an astonishing conclusion follows: It was in this way that the whole world of living creatures, and human beings themselves, came into existence. We are the product of “haphazard mistakes.”
Code:
"What response shall we make to this view? It is the affair of the natural sciences to explain how the tree of life in particular continues to grow and how new branches shoot out from it. This is not a matter for faith. But we must have the audacity to say that the great projects of the living creation are not the products of chance and error. Nor are they the products of a selective process to which divine predicates can be attributed in illogical, unscientific, and even mythic fashion. The great projects of the living creation point to a creating Reason and show us a creating Intelligence, and they do so more luminously and radiantly today than ever before. Thus we can say today with a new certitude and joyousness that the human being is indeed a divine project, which only the creating Intelligence was strong and great and audacious enough to conceive of. Human beings are not a mistake but something willed; they are the fruit of love."
I’ll stick with the Church.

Peace,
Ed
👍
 
Scientific consensus does not determine scientific truth.

The empirical data is what determines scientific truth; scientific truth is independent of the consensus of the scientific community.

Scientific consensus once told the world that there was this thing called the “ether.” James Clerk Maxwell even precisely calculated the ether’s density and coefficient of rigidity. But guess what? The ether never existed. It was a fairy tale.

Just as the best physicists of the 19th century preached the fairy tale called “ether,” so Darwinists today preach this fairy tale that says random, chance processes are responsible for the irreducible complexity found in biology.
But anybody can claim to meet all the criteria of science, claim empirical data and all,
and if left unchecked, anybody can believe just about anything. Science is not always
perfect, true, but science will always test and test, to make sure if something is right
or wrong. What you are suggesting is that yeah, the Intelligent Designists talk about
being a real science, nobody can say anything to the contrary, so I’ll accept whatever
they have to say. That is apparently your world.

In my world, there are conferences in which many scientists of all branches
check one another to see whether or not a particular claim is correct of not.
If the consensus among scientists is that they all find a claim to be correct
or that some new novel scientific theory is in fact a rather valid theory (sci-
entific context), then the world can rest assured that it can trust science.

Scientific consensus is not a popularity vote, it doesn’t determine truth,
but it tests the unknown and the unsure, tests it again, and again and
again . . . and again, that way we can be sure of what science really
is and what is religion in the guise of scientific jargon.
 
Scientific consensus does not determine scientific truth.

The empirical data is what determines scientific truth; scientific truth is independent of the consensus of the scientific community.

Scientific consensus once told the world that there was this thing called the “ether.” James Clerk Maxwell even precisely calculated the ether’s density and coefficient of rigidity. But guess what? The ether never existed. It was a fairy tale.

Just as the best physicists of the 19th century preached the fairy tale called “ether,” so Darwinists today preach this fairy tale that says random, chance processes are responsible for the irreducible complexity found in biology.
The “ether” hypothesis was discarded because it was not verified by experiment. Science is not afraid to admit when it’s wrong - indeed, it rejoices in it. But the claim must be backed up by proof. If someone were to find a modern form dated to the same age as earlier forms, the grant applications would write themselves, and the discoverer would have a firm place in history. That’s all it would take - one modern horse found alongside eohippus. One modern whale found alongside ambulocetus or basilosaurus. One modern human found alongside ramapithecus.
 
The “ether” hypothesis was discarded because it was not verified by experiment. Science is not afraid to admit when it’s wrong - indeed, it rejoices in it. But the claim must be backed up by proof. If someone were to find a modern form dated to the same age as earlier forms, the grant applications would write themselves, and the discoverer would have a firm place in history. That’s all it would take - one modern horse found alongside eohippus. One modern whale found alongside ambulocetus or basilosaurus. One modern human found alongside ramapithecus.
Do you believe all of these things (grants and a place in history) would be incentive to keep status quo?
After all, these grants writing themselves are likely unraveling for others.
 
But anybody can claim to meet all the criteria of science, claim empirical data and all,
and if left unchecked, anybody can believe just about anything. Science is not always
perfect, true, but science will always test and test, to make sure if something is right
or wrong. What you are suggesting is that yeah, the Intelligent Designists talk about
being a real science, nobody can say anything to the contrary, so I’ll accept whatever
they have to say. That is apparently your world.

In my world, there are conferences in which many scientists of all branches
check one another to see whether or not a particular claim is correct of not.
If the consensus among scientists is that they all find a claim to be correct
or that some new novel scientific theory is in fact a rather valid theory (sci-
entific context), then the world can rest assured that it can trust science.

Scientific consensus is not a popularity vote, it doesn’t determine truth,
but it tests the unknown and the unsure, tests it again, and again and
again . . . and again, that way we can be sure of what science really
is and what is religion in the guise of scientific jargon.
So we have to do due diligence and test everything science proclaims on every side. As citizens we need to put them to the test, otherwise we believe what mortal men pitch us, ie propaganda. Remember, an evolutionary formed brain would have no conscience.

Testing - as in empirical testing? Evolution is not empirical.
 
That is right. With all due respect, freethinkers cannot be free if certain ideas are rejected by the words of anonymous posters. The Church will protect and guide.

Peace,
Ed
[Is Liberalism as Sin?

](http://www.liberalismisasin.com/)**Chapter 14 Liberalism and Free-Thought
** In our day the Catholic world, with as much justice as reason, attributes impiety as a quality of free-thought, whether in a person, a journal or an institution. “Free-thinker” is an odious epithet which few are willing to accept, but which many justly bear in spite of their protestations. They chafe under the appellation of the word, but find no inconvenience in being all that it implies. Persons, societies, books, governments which reject, in matters of faith and morals, the only and exclusive criterion—that of the Catholic Church—are Liberals. They acknowledge themselves to be Liberals. They feel honored to be so recognized and never dream of scandalizing anybody except us terrible “irreconcilables.”
Now change the expression; instead of Liberals, call them free-thinkers. They resent the epithet as a calumny and grow indignant at the insult, as they term it. But why this excruciating tenderness, this delicate sensitiveness over the variations of a simple term? Have you not, dear friends, banished from your conscience, your books, your journals and your society all recognition of the supreme authority of the Church? Have you not raised up as the sole and fundamental criterion of your conduct and your thought your own untrammeled reason?
Very properly then do you say that you are Liberal, and no one will dispute the title with you. But you should remember that the very principle which makes you Liberal constitutes you free-thinkers. Every Liberal, no matter of what degree or shade, is ipso facto a freethinker, and every freethinker, as odious as the title may seem according to social conventionalities, is only a logical Liberal. He is simply a Liberal following his premises to their conclusions. This doctrine is as precise and as exact as a mathematical proposition. It is based on the laws of the strictest logic. It is a simple syllogism, whose premise is Liberalism and whose conclusion is free-thought.
Let us illustrate. You are a Catholic more or less open to false allurements, and as a punishment for your sins, you belong to a Liberal society, say, of a literary character. Consider a moment and ask yourself the following question: Would I continue to belong to this atheneum if tomorrow it should proclaim itself publicly and boldly a society of free-thought? What response would your conscience and your shame dictate? Would you not at once withdraw from its membership? As a Catholic you could take no part in its proceedings. Again, you subscribe to a journal and read it without scruple, although it bears a Liberal title and speaks and reasons accordingly. Would you continue your subscription if all of a sudden it should place upon its title page the following heading: journal of Free-Thought. Well, this moderate or violent Liberal journal has been for years nothing more nor less than a free-thinker, and you have been imbibing its poison under the delusion of a word.
Ah, of how many prejudices would we rid ourselves if we only reflected a little on the meaning of words! Every society, whether scientific, literary or philanthropic, constituted on Liberal lines, is free-thinking. Every government Liberally organized is free-thinking. To reject with distrust the name and not the substance is blindness. Any institution, no matter what be its character, established in complete independence of the magisterium of the Faith, is free-thinking. Catholics cannot, consistently with their faith, belong to them. Membership there means rebellion against the Church.
In all such institutions Liberalism reigns and, in consequence, free-thought. No Catholic can remain a Catholic and affiliate with them. We are Catholics all-in-all—or not at all. We cannot dwell in an atmosphere where God is not. There is no true spiritual life where Jesus Christ is not, and He has given His promise to be with His Church forever. He who abides not in Him lives in the outer darkness.
How much do perverse Catholics serve the devil by obstinately clinging to such associations and participating in their works! In the folly of their ignorance, which they assert against the wisdom of the Church, they harden their consciences to the practical guidance of the Holy See and blindly enlist in the service of an enemy whose cunning deludes them into the slavery of Hell—under the disguise of freedom! They forget that the Truth alone makes them free. To know and serve God is the only freedom, and Liberalism completely severs the bond which links man to God. With a just and rational horror does a good Catholic regard Liberalism. Ultramontanism will never cause you to loose your soul; Liberalism is a broad road to the infernal abyss.
 
So we have to do due diligence and test everything science proclaims on every side. As citizens we need to put them to the test, otherwise we believe what mortal men pitch us, ie propaganda. Remember, an evolutionary formed brain would have no conscience.

Testing - as in empirical testing? Evolution is not empirical.
Do you really want to say that, really? OF COURSE Evolution has been empirically tested!

mnsta.org/position_statements.html#3
talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA202.html
** ID poster boy Behe ignores and dismisses empirical evidence**

And how is it that the evolutionary formed brain would have no conscience?

ID is the one that uses propaganda, something of which scientists ought to do more,
get the word out there more about evolution, because really scientists are too busy
studying all these important matters. Creationists just play around with their false
science, avoid getting checked by the Scientific Community, and just inject their
information all over the place in books, websites, unwilling to be scrutinized by
the real scientists.
 
But anybody can claim to meet all the criteria of science, claim empirical data and all,
and if left unchecked, anybody can believe just about anything. Science is not always
perfect, true, but science will always test and test, to make sure if something is right
or wrong.
Apparently science will not “always” test and test. If “science” (as in a large portion of scientists) makes a consensual determination that there is no need to test, then testing will not occur.

The case being made by “scientists” and several on this thread, including you, is that there is no need to test FOR design purely because a predetermination has been made that it is not testable because it is not falsifiable.

What is interesting is that you claim that a proposition such as “God designed the universe” is not falsifiable and yet you claim, by faith, that it is true. So you have to admit that just because a proposition is not falsifiable, that alone is insufficient to make it false. The claim could still be true.

Yet if it could be true then it also could be false, which makes it, theoretically, at least, falsifiable.

The falsifiability criterion is supposed to show that claims that are not falsifiable are, in some sense, not saying anything. Such claims function more as jibberish than as a valid claim about anything. Are you claiming that “God designed the universe” is tantamount to speaking jibberish? That it is a nonsense claim?

You really should understand the implications of statements you hold dear.

By the way, falsifiability is a questionable standard in any case because every statement you make about your internal mental states cannot be falsified given current scientific methods.

If YOU claim “God designed the universe” is true, then, for you it is capable of being falsified otherwise, you could not claim it to be “true” in any valid sense.

Falsifiability is a philosophical claim, not merely a scientific one.
What you are suggesting is that yeah, the Intelligent Designists talk about
being a real science, nobody can say anything to the contrary, so I’ll accept whatever
they have to say. That is apparently your world.

In my world, there are conferences in which many scientists of all branches
check one another to see whether or not a particular claim is correct of not.
If the consensus among scientists is that they all find a claim to be correct
or that some new novel scientific theory is in fact a rather valid theory (sci-
entific context), then the world can rest assured that it can trust science.

Scientific consensus is not a popularity vote, it doesn’t determine truth,
but it tests the unknown and the unsure, tests it again, and again and
again . . . and again, that way we can be sure of what science really
is and what is religion in the guise of scientific jargon.
Have any other mechanisms for adaptive change actually been “tested” by science? Do you even know of any other proposed methods by which adaptive change could have occurred? It would seem this is poor science because only one hypothesis has been suggested and the “testing” has simply been done to try to confirm it, not debunk it.

Is it possible that some other mechanism for adaptive change, besides natural selection acting on random mutations, could be operative? If you say, “No,” and only offer as evidence that it has not been disproven then it would seem no positive case has been made. We just have reason for thinking that it could be the mechanism in some instances, but we certainly haven’t shown it is the mechanism in all.

Until other possible mechanisms have been tested scientists have not made a cogent case. Let’s do some “real” science, then, if we are going to go around acting as if certainty has been established, when it appears not to have been.
 
Why are you wasting your time here, then?

Go do some science 👍
Because they are trying to invade schools and push real science out for their personal pet religious ideas, which needs to be fought against for the good of this country and for man.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top