One-third of Americans reject evolution, poll shows

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It isn’t that God has no say in science, it’s that the physical sciences say nothing about God. How does one put the Holy Trinity into a test tube?
I have never understood this objection.

We don’t need to put the mind of a perpetrator “into a test tube” to figure out that an act was premeditated or planned. There are other reliable indicators.

We don’t need to fully say everything about God to know that some things can be reliably said of him.

The pretense of science is that it operates with “knowledge” or “certainty” about what is held. I don’t think that is entirely true when truly assessed with some level of skepticism.

What is it that science really “knows” or has certainty about why things are the way they are?
 
By the same token, theistic evolution, invokes God. Theistic evolution IS Creationism, by definition

Pot to kettle…

… Come in, Pot.
No, you have that backwards.

Creationism invokes God.
ID IS creationism.
Therefore ID invokes God.

Creationism invokes God.
Theistic evolution is NOT creationism.
End.

I was pointing out that because ID and Creationism are the same, ID necessarily invokes God, not claiming that they are the same because they both invoke God.
 
So forensic science that leads by evidence to a premeditated intelligent cause is not a science?
Something that simply pre-assumes or philosophically argues that there is premeditated intelligent cause, but does not test this concept with experimentation is not a science.
 
And the people who currently have the grant have an economic incentive to fight the changes.
Lol. You get grants for a bout a year. On occasion, a bit more if the experiment you want to run will take longer, and often less than a year. Since the experiments often take to the time limit to complete, there isn’t really anyone coming along to steal away grant money. Once they get it, they’ve got it and have to make it last. They can’t get it taken from them unless there’s some sort of gross misappropriation of funds. There is absolutely zero incentive to fight change in this regard.

This is another of many cases of you guys just not knowing how the scientific world functions.
 
Do you read what you write and check for latent inconsistencies?

While you are looking up the other terms, spend some time searching for “law of non-contradiction.”
What he said was just fine. What he was saying is that when forensic scientists look at a scenario and muse about the cause of it, they are not doing science. Only when they experiment properly is it science. Your decision to chop out “can look at something and suppose that it was fashioned by someone, but that” changed its entire meaning.
 
If God directed evolution what would the evidence of it be?
Scientifically speaking, there would not and CANNOT be evidence of that. This is what we’ve been trying to get through to you guys for several pages now. God, by definition,is supernatural. Science, by definition, is the study of the natural world. It does not and CANNOT comment on the supernatural in exactly the same way historians cannot study or comment on the future.
 
Look up the term “chronological snobbery.”

Or “etymological fallacy” for that matter.
BUT, I was not “describing the erroneous argument (usually considered an outright fallacy) that
the thinking, art, or science of an earlier time is inherently inferior to that of the present, simply
by virtue of its temporal priority,” I’m just pointing out the ultimate roots of Creationism and that
you can’t just change the meaning to blend in.

You will find also that the word “Creationist” has been mostly used in this thread to describe a
very particular group of people, people of the historic Creationism, so it is not a fallacy to point
out the historic roots of Creationism.

I am not a Creationist in the broadest sense of the term which is rather deviant from the mean-
ing of the word “Creationism” which is less then 200 years old. Now it is true that the meaning
of words do change over time, but such rates of change vary from word to word, and simply be-
cause IDists want “Creationist” to apply to all believers of a Creator does not change the great-
er meaning of the term.

Overall, the meanings of the word “Creationism” and “Creationist” have not changed so greatly
that your “chronological snobbery” or “etymological fallacy” apply well enough to my response.
 
Very impressed by how quickly you connected with and found this passage.

Must have been a stroke of chance!

So even Tullius over 2000 years ago was arguing intelligent design.

Hmmm.

And we have the impression the idea has only recently been proposed.

Right! :rolleyes:
lol. nothing about that description described the ID movement and the definition of ID.
 
Do you read what you write and check for latent inconsistencies?

While you are looking up the other terms, spend some time searching for “law of non-contradiction.”
Perhaps I should have said “but that **ALONE **is not a science.”

Intelligent Design is a HUNCH, at best.
 
And if God created the cosmos, by what right do we have to exclude him from our musings about it?
Science talks about the Creation. To include God in Science
would be to make God part of the Creation. I think the real
question is what right do we have to bring God into science?

In my view, this attempt is insulting to God.
 
I have never understood this objection.

We don’t need to put the mind of a perpetrator “into a test tube” to figure out that an act was premeditated or planned. There are other reliable indicators.

We don’t need to fully say everything about God to know that some things can be reliably said of him.

The pretense of science is that it operates with “knowledge” or “certainty” about what is held. I don’t think that is entirely true when truly assessed with some level of skepticism.

What is it that science really “knows” or has certainty about why things are the way they are?
Once a designer is invoked, all predictability, testability, and falsifiability goes out the window. The answer to any challenge or question can be reduced to, “Because I say it was designed”. Why do we not see modern forms alongside earlier? By design! How is it that other primates look so much like us? Design! Why do humans have vestigal tailbones? Design! Where do we get wisdom teeth from? Design!

It’s not an answer, it’s a cop-out. ID and Creationism are as scientific as those who claim aliens as the cause for every ancient accomplishment.
 
Very impressed by how quickly you connected with and found this passage.

Must have been a stroke of chance!

So even Tullius over 2000 years ago was arguing intelligent design.

Hmmm.

And we have the impression the idea has only recently been proposed.

Right! :rolleyes:
It’s just that I remembered it from previous debates about this topic.

Peace,
Ed
 
Science talks about the Creation. To include God in Science
would be to make God part of the Creation. I think the real
question is what right do we have to bring God into science?

In my view, this attempt is insulting to God.
On the contrary, both Catholics and non-Catholics, as evidenced in this thread, are mixing God and science. For some, that is just wrong because the sacred entrance to the science classroom must be guarded at all times so that the temple might not be defiled. That is why some scientists are so riled up about Christians, and the Catholic Church in particular. How dare Christians include what is taught in the science classroom, the holy of holies, into their beliefs? That’s all we’re seeing here.

If anyone has a problem with a school board or a particular group then take it up with them.

Peace,
Ed
 
Do you really want to say that, really? OF COURSE Evolution has been empirically tested!

mnsta.org/position_statements.html#3
talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA202.html
** ID poster boy Behe ignores and dismisses empirical evidence**

And how is it that the evolutionary formed brain would have no conscience?

ID is the one that uses propaganda, something of which scientists ought to do more,
get the word out there more about evolution, because really scientists are too busy
studying all these important matters. Creationists just play around with their false
science, avoid getting checked by the Scientific Community, and just inject their
information all over the place in books, websites, unwilling to be scrutinized by
the real scientists.
Predictions?
 
On the contrary, both Catholics and non-Catholics, as evidenced in this thread, are mixing God and science. For some, that is just wrong because the sacred entrance to the science classroom must be guarded at all times so that the temple might not be defiled. That is why some scientists are so riled up about Christians, and the Catholic Church in particular. How dare Christians include what is taught in the science classroom, the holy of holies, into their beliefs? That’s all we’re seeing here.

If anyone has a problem with a school board or a particular group then take it up with them.
Sorry, but I’m not seeing that, you have it backwards, and I think you know that.

Indeed Catholics and non-Catholics are mixing God and science, but not all of them.
Only the select bunch fitting into the category of “Creationist” and 'IDists" are doing
this. Theistic Evolution doesn’t mix God and science up, it is simply a view that ac-
cepts both without confusing one for the other, or attempting to fuse them together
into a “science.” That is what Intelligent Design is trying to do, fuse God/Religion
and Science together into a single view, and have it accepted by the world as a
real science.

Did you really type what you typed with a straight face?
 
Sorry, but I’m not seeing that, you have it backwards, and I think you know that.

Indeed Catholics and non-Catholics are mixing God and science, but not all of them.
Only the select bunch fitting into the category of “Creationist” and 'IDists" are doing
this. Theistic Evolution doesn’t mix God and science up, it is simply a view that ac-
cepts both without confusing one for the other, or attempting to fuse them together
into a “science.” That is what Intelligent Design is trying to do, fuse God/Religion
and Science together into a single view, and have it accepted by the world as a
real science.

Did you really type what you typed with a straight face?
Stay on topic please. Fears about what “creationists” or “IDers” are doing appear to be relevant only on a personal level to a few people. The topic is 'one-third of Americans reject evolution." There is no mixing aloud? That is patently false. For those who believe in theistic evolution, where does the theistic part fit in? It’s like cutting a car in half and telling the buyer: “Make sure you recognize that these two parts are separate and distinct from each other.”

By this definition, theistic evolution is false.

Peace,
Ed
 
Sorry, but I’m not seeing that, you have it backwards, and I think you know that.

Indeed Catholics and non-Catholics are mixing God and science, but not all of them.
Only the select bunch fitting into the category of “Creationist” and 'IDists" are doing
this. Theistic Evolution doesn’t mix God and science up, it is simply a view that ac-
cepts both without confusing one for the other, or attempting to fuse them together
into a “science.” That is what Intelligent Design is trying to do, fuse God/Religion
and Science together into a single view, and have it accepted by the world as a
real science.

Did you really type what you typed with a straight face?
I think you’re a bit confused. You have a picture of Jesus Christ so I’m going to try to be charitable. First of all, science says nothing about the existence of God. Yet scientists such as Jerry Coyne and PZ Myers are able to generate polemical attacks on religion and faith heads such as yourself. They also attack theistic evolutionists. These people philosophise and use “neo-darwinian evolution” to strengthen their belief in atheism and own metaphysical world views. Secondly the use of “unguided” is a non-scientific pronouncement. There is no scientific test for “guidance”. Often evolution is described so by “scientists”. Yet it is not a scientific statement. It’s an a priori assumption or an assertion not grounded in a scientific view but in one’s a priori worldview.

But your biggest mistake above is to think ID = Christian or theistic God did it. Not at all. ID people also consider the possibility that it could be aliens or some other being NOT NECESSARILY the God of the Old/New Testament. Of course there are people in ID who believe it is God. But it need not be. That’s a further metaphysical/philosophical import.

I’d like you to acknowledge at least this point. ID need not be about God. It can be about any designer - alien, future technology, this universe as a computer simulation, gods like Zeus, etc. Maybe the motivations from many of ID people are religion or spirituality, but that does not refute ID. That’s a really, a silly ad hominem. If you’re not making this assumption, I apologise. If you do, the take home message for you is that ID = not Creationism, in the relevant sense that everyone in the West worries over. “God in the clasroom” and other similar nonsense.

BTW Theistic Evolution can be referred to as a type of Creationism. You are a creationist yourself. If God did it by manipulating matter and energy, the people you may want to be impress are not going to be happy with you. That’s still Creationism, albeit some form of crypto variety.

The whole nerd rage about Creationism vs Evolution is not a question of Faith vs Science, but a paranoid worry that Christian religion may yet again achieve a legitimate place in polite, elite, Western European/US society (probably mostly English speaking society if I’d want to be more specific.) That cannot be allowed. Which means ID is by default about Christianity.

(Most people who debate this issue on the internet, I found, don’t do any real science at all. They make the common lay mistake that, not recognising common descent means all our science and research falls apart.)
 
On the contrary, both Catholics and non-Catholics, as evidenced in this thread, are mixing God and science. For some, that is just wrong because the sacred entrance to the science classroom must be guarded at all times so that the temple might not be defiled.
how are you not getting it? Its wrong because IT’S IMPOSSIBLE. Science is the study of the natural world by definition. Any time you invoke or try to study the supernatural in ANY WAY, in introduce the supernatural to the equation and it becomes de facto no longer science.
 
Forensic science can look at something and suppose that it was
fashioned by someone, but that is not science. Forensic science
is science, but Intelligent Design is not science.
Both operate in the very same fashion.

But, I get it. If one says ID the science is not science over and over and over it is not science.:rolleyes:
 
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