Online shopping on Sunday where next-day delivery is involved?

[HomeschoolDad]

I realize this topic has been covered on CAF time and again, but I’d like to narrow the focus a bit. If you shop online on Sunday, and it is one of the very large online concerns (such as Amazon), how can this be defended, especially where “next-day delivery” is guaranteed?

I’m referring to purchases that do not absolutely have to be made on Sunday. Think of it this way: you place your order on Sunday. Almost immediately, someone has to “do the legwork”, go to the appropriate place in the warehouse, get the item, pack and box it up, slap a mailing label on it, and put it out for USPS, UPS, or FedEx to pick up. I realize some of this may be robotized or otherwise automated — robots and computerized, automated “assembly lines” are not human beings and cannot “break the Sabbath” — but there has to be some human intervention in there, somewhere, and you’ve just asked a person to perform unnecessary servile labor on Sunday. I also understand that many of these warehouses are not the easiest places in the world to work — it is very hard, demanding labor, both mentally and physically, and the pay is not all that great.

It seems to me, that if anything, this is more morally problematic than going into a retail store, especially if it is a slow-paced, small-town, humane, “mom and pop” store, and buying this or that. And many Americans have this horrible habit of thinking “because you are causing me to part with my money, you have to do exactly what I say”. In France or Japan, they’d throw you out of the store for such an attitude.

CCC 2187 Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort. Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord’s Day. Traditional activities (sport, restaurants, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require some people to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set aside sufficient time for leisure. With temperance and charity the faithful will see to it that they avoid the excesses and violence sometimes associated with popular leisure activities. In spite of economic constraints, public authorities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine worship. Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees."

Any thoughts?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

If it bothers you, either don’t shop on Sunday at all or don’t order next day delivery on Sunday. Problem solved. No need to even have a discussion.

I personally almost never order next day delivery on anything. I don’t want to pay extra for it and there’s rarely anything I need shipped in that big of a hurry. It would have to be some emergency purchase. In an emergency, work on Sunday would be okay.

Also, if you’re going to get hung up on making others do servile work, there’s no distinction between Amazon and your local hardware store. Servile work is servile work.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I personally almost never order next day delivery on anything. I don’t want to pay extra for it and there’s rarely anything I need shipped in that big of a hurry. It would have to be some emergency purchase. In an emergency, work on Sunday would be okay.

I like next-day delivery and my Amazon Prime subscriptions features this for many items. I’m a busy guy. I homeschool my son for whom I have, for all practical purposes, full custody, and I care for elderly disabled parents, cook their meals, do their shopping, and so on. Time is often at a premium.

What precipitated this question was my browsing for door wreaths. My front door picks up hot morning sunlight and the wreath I have now has become faded and brittle. I thought “yes, and if I order this from Amazon, someone who is already overworked to death — I’ve heard the stories — has one more item to pick, one more package to ship… and that’s just not right, to do that to someone on a Sunday”. It can wait until tomorrow.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I don’t exactly have tons of time either. I plan my purchases so I don’t need to have next day delivery. I also buy most of my “need it now” stuff in person. I realize maybe this is not an option for everyone (for example if they are far from stores) in which case we are back to “emergency” or “genuine need for my family” and there is no moral problem with Sunday work.

It honestly seems like you’re just trying to create a moral quandary for yourself that could be either solved with advance planning or, if really hard to solve, written off as an emergency or a need.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

It honestly seems like you’re just trying to create a moral quandary for yourself that could be either solved with advance planning or, if really hard to solve, written off as an emergency or a need.

No, just asking a question. It does seem to me, though, that we as faithful Catholics have pretty much given ourselves carte blanche to buy anything we feel like buying on a Sunday, even more so, now that we have these devices in our homes that allow us to depersonalize the transaction. Somebody still has to work, and it’s not the most humanizing work in the world.

 

[Mythicalbio]

To me the Catechism is clear, if the demand on others can be avoided, it should be avoided. Obviously this is a matter of degree and prudential judgment, but I like to make orders on Monday, and not on any Solemnities or octaves. I write what I need that week and will mass order at once if I can. If it is an urgent item obviously I don’t do this and make the purchase immediately (one would call 911 for emergencies, or anyone, and Jesus gave teachings on this, is it lawful to do good or evil on the Sabbath?) If you can avoid an unnecessary servile request, but dont, it is a sin of some type.

One thing I hate in these discussions is the confusion of “prudential judgement” with “whatever I decide is moral is moral.” Prudential judgements can be wrong, and frankly for this age I think almost always deference should be given to a stricter interpretation and judgement. People are way too loose on the Lord’s days.

 

[Irishmom2]

Amazon is going to ship and deliver whether I order from them or not. They have people from all religions and no religion working for them. They are free to fulfill orders as they see fit. We are free to not shop there on Sunday if we feel it is unnecessary.

If it bothered people to work on Sunday they would not work there, or they would because they really need the job, and the Church says there is nothing wrong with them working on Sunday if they have to.

So I am not really understanding the question of this thread.

 

[dscath]

If you spent time in worship and prayer (including Mass if available) and one is pre-occupied with this worry it might be a matter of scrupulosity.

As the old joke goes, “The Jews invented guilt, and the Catholics perfected it!”

Be at peace.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

To me the Catechism is clear, if the demand on others can be avoided, it should be avoided. Obviously this is a matter of degree and prudential judgment, but I like to make orders on Monday, and not on any Solemnities or octaves. I write what I need that week and will mass order at once if I can. If it is an urgent item obviously I don’t do this and make the purchase immediately (one would call 911 for emergencies, or anyone, and Jesus gave teachings on this, is it lawful to do good or evil on the Sabbath?) If you can avoid an unnecessary servile request, but dont, it is a sin of some type.

One thing I hate in these discussions is the confusion of “prudential judgement” with “whatever I decide is moral is moral.” Prudential judgements can be wrong, and frankly for this age I think almost always deference should be given to a stricter interpretation and judgement. People are way too loose on the Lord’s days.

My point exactly. Totally agreed. I find, in things such as this, that very often there tends to be “reason creep”, that is, the list of excusing causes, mitigating circumstances, necessity, and so on, starts getting more and more lenient, in tandem with “what we want to do anyway”. Then before you know it, presto, the commandment has become so narrow as to be pretty much meaningless. And sometimes, yes, we need a prompting from outside ourselves to nudge us and say “hey, you’re going a little too far, you need to pull back a bit and realize there are limits to this sort of thing”. I know I do. I can’t speak for anyone else.

Amazon is going to ship and deliver whether I order from them or not. They have people from all religions and no religion working for them. They are free to fulfill orders as they see fit. We are free to not shop there on Sunday if we feel it is unnecessary.

If it bothered people to work on Sunday they would not work there, or they would because they really need the job, and the Church says there is nothing wrong with them working on Sunday if they have to.

So I am not really understanding the question of this thread.

Forcing someone to do servile work on Sunday when it’s not necessary. It’s that simple.

I think of these things in terms of Kant’s categorical imperative, which is far from being Catholic doctrine, but is often a useful guide to the moral life — “act in such a way that you would wish to see everyone else act in the same way”. If all Catholics, or even all Christians, would refuse to transact any unnecessary business on Sundays, many stores would have to say “it’s not worth it, we might as well close our doors on Sundays”. I don’t have a way to parse Amazon transactions into “you can order from us, but only if it’s something that absolutely has to be processed today” — the religious upbringing and beliefs of Jeff Bezos are ambiguous, but strangely enough, he was married by an Old Catholic Ultrajectine bishop. (You can’t make this stuff up.) He could always just close up shop on Sundays. That’s what Chick-fil-a and Hobby Lobby do.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

If you spent time in worship and prayer (including Mass if available) and one is pre-occupied with this worry it might be a matter of scrupulosity.

As the old joke goes, “The Jews invented guilt, and the Catholics perfected it!”

Be at peace.

I’m not preoccupied, I’m not scrupulous, and I am at peace.

This does not have to be more complicated than it is. I don’t need to order the door wreath today. It’s probably not a sin to do it, due to relative parvity of matter (I’d be buying a wreath, I wouldn’t be buying Amazon) and the very slight additional labor that some sweatshop warehouse worker would have to do. It’s more of an “ought not” than a “must not”, more of “it’s not the best thing” rather than “it’s a sin”. The Islamic concept of makruh — “disliked” or “disapproved” — is a better way to describe it. I’m not sure Catholic theology has an equivalent for makruh.

 

[1ke]

you’ve just asked a person to perform unnecessary servile labor on Sunday

Working at Amazon is not “servile labor”, nor does that term appear in the Catechism or canon law pertaining to Sunday rest.

Servile Labor was the work of servants or serfs, and also can be associated with heavy manual labor of farm and field work (most of which is now mechanized). Also even when servile work was the norm, farmers still had to do some of it on Sundays— milking cows and feeding livestock. My husband never did field work on Sundays unless the weather or need for feed required it.

Those at Amazon aren’t doing the work of servants nor is it heavy manual labor

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

you’ve just asked a person to perform unnecessary servile labor on Sunday

Working at Amazon is not “servile labor”, nor does that term appear in the Catechism or canon law pertaining to Sunday rest.

Servile Labor was the work of servants or serfs, and also can be associated with heavy manual labor of farm and field work (most of which is now mechanized). Also even when servile work was the norm, farmers still had to do some of it on Sundays— milking cows and feeding livestock. My husband never did field work on Sundays unless the weather or need for feed required it.

Those at Amazon aren’t doing the work of servants nor is it heavy manual labor

Well, from what I’ve heard — and I know a guy who worked there — it is indeed pretty arduous, stressful, physically demanding work, the people are given unrealistic quotas, and bathroom breaks are counted against them. I think all of that put together, definitely qualifies it as “heavy manual labor”. By your reasoning, if I’m understanding it correctly, it would be acceptable for Sunday to be just another work day in every office and cubicle farm in the land, because it’s not “servile” or “heavy manual” labor. I can tell you, from many years of having been stuck in that environment — an existence that has now come blissfully to an end, I am actually able to care for my home and family for the first time ever — it is so soul-sucking, so mind-numbing, so unhealthful (constant sitting), that it takes a toll every bit as grievous as servile work.

I am toying with the idea of trying to get my son set up in some kind of self-employed business, so that he won’t have to put up with that sort of thing. He inclines towards the scientific and mechanical anyway — he is 13 and he is already a very competent landscaper, not a lazy bone in his body.

 

[Irishmom2]

I am toying with the idea of trying to get my son set up in some kind of self-employed business, so that he won’t have to put up with that sort of thing.

Won’t it matter what he wants to do?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

I am toying with the idea of trying to get my son set up in some kind of self-employed business, so that he won’t have to put up with that sort of thing.

Won’t it matter what he wants to do?

Certainly, but every boy needs guidance from his father. The business would be for him, not for me. I am retired and have made arrangements for a modest lifetime income.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Amazon does not use servitude. They hire workpeople.

You may wish to do sourcing on the things you purchase to be comfortable they are not made with servile labor but by those being paid a fair wage.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Amazon does not use servitude. They hire workpeople.

True, and they provide very poor working conditions, and make unreasonable demands upon their employees. It’s a shame they are not unionized.

You may wish to do sourcing on the things you purchase to be comfortable they are not made with servile labor but by those being paid a fair wage.

You make a very valid point. We live in an imperfect world and I do not have the income, nor the resources, to buy “fair trade everything”. I do not like Amazon’s business practices, nor Walmart’s heavy reliance upon Chinese products, but I do what I have to do, in the here and now. I am retired on a very modest income and I don’t buy things I don’t absolutely have to have.

 

[TheLittleLady]

I don’t buy things I don’t absolutely have to have.

To add some levity, I’m a woman half a CENTURY old who has never bought a door wreath. We all have different ideas of what we have to have

 

[Mrchatsworth]

But this really goes for most mail. If you get mail on Monday or Tuesday it didn’t magically appear. The supply chain for mail and packages includes trucking overnight all over the country, airplane flights, sorting, handlers, security etc. and though USPS does not deliver (most) packages or mail on Sunday, you better believe there is thousands of employees working on Sunday to get your mail to you on Monday. So should you not shop at all online then?

 

[Lara]

Maybe your son could make the wreath and the excess money be sent to a charity?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

I don’t buy things I don’t absolutely have to have.

To add some levity, I’m a woman half a CENTURY old who has never bought a door wreath. We all have different ideas of what we have to have

In my extended family, we have the bad habit of spending other people’s money for them. Both of my parents grew up very poor and I was raised not to waste money, and not to admire it when other people waste money. I spent quite a bit of time considering whether this was a necessary purchase, and came to the conclusion that in the interests of having an attractive, dignified, curb-appeal-friendly entrance, yes, it was necessary. I’ve done a lot of work this year on our front yard and porch, and an old, faded, brittle door wreath doesn’t look good beside the rest of it.

I did go ahead and buy the wreath this morning. Yesterday was chaotic around here.

But this really goes for most mail. If you get mail on Monday or Tuesday it didn’t magically appear. The supply chain for mail and packages includes trucking overnight all over the country, airplane flights, sorting, handlers, security etc. and though USPS does not deliver (most) packages or mail on Sunday, you better believe there is thousands of employees working on Sunday to get your mail to you on Monday. So should you not shop at all online then?

I actually thought of this. I cannot police every mail-order business, every brick-and-mortar store, every warehouse, and so on, to see whether they are forcing people to work on Sundays or not. That would be ludicrous. But I can say to myself “this is not something I have to have today, or tomorrow, or the next day, but if I order it today, on Sunday, I am going to be setting a process in motion by which somebody in a warehouse somewhere, somebody who is overworked to begin with, will have to do this work for me right now, or in a very short time — it’s not a question of ‘is it a sin?’, 'is it a mortal sin?”, or what have you, it’s merely a question of “is this something I ought not to do, is it the best thing to do this today, or can I just wait until tomorrow?” Again, to my mind, it falls more under the category of the Muslim makruh, “disliked” or “disapproved”, not necessarily sinful, just not the best thing.