Online shopping on Sunday where next-day delivery is involved?

[HomeschoolDad]

I am not even going to entertain the idea of “what if it’s 10 pm on Saturday night and I order it, and the warehouse operates 24/7?”. As the saying goes, use your common sense. Again, Kant’s categorical imperative comes into play — “if enough people did this, businesses would get the message, and they would lose enough business on Sundays, that they would either close entirely, or curtail their staff only to the levels needed to maintain skeleton service for those transactions that are absolutely necessary”. Charging at windmills, perhaps, but it all starts with individual choice, and if enough individuals make the right choices, great things happen.

Or, as the old saying goes, “if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem”, the “problem” here being the almost-universal desacralization of Sunday.

Maybe your son could make the wreath and the excess money be sent to a charity?

I know my son better than anybody else does, and something tells me this just wouldn’t be his thing. If he could put Fortnite characters and a tribute to PewDiePie on it, maybe. Sunflowers and greenery, probably not.

 

[Mrchatsworth]

Ok well again. If you ONLY order locally, then you are limited to ordering Monday Tuesday or Wednesday because anything on a Thursday Friday or Saturday is probably going to directly make someone work on a Sunday. And you couldn’t order non locally because someone will definitely have to work on a Sunday. You also should factor in HDOs etc. so you are probably left with only ordering locally possibly limited to 100 days a year or so.
Sometimes with these borderline scrupulous questions I like to point out that the Holy Father is heavily engaged in tourism and business on Sundays. If you are in Rome around the Vatican you will have no trouble purchasing and even shipping non essential items all the time, including but not limited to, gelato, popemobiles, plastic swords etc. the Holy Father chooses Sunday’s to specifically address large crowds in the evening, encouraging large gatherings and commerce.
I don’t think this is a productive scrutiny of “trying to be holy” and purchasing things online.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Ok well again. If you ONLY order locally, then you are limited to ordering Monday Tuesday or Wednesday because anything on a Thursday Friday or Saturday is probably going to directly make someone work on a Sunday. And you couldn’t order non locally because someone will definitely have to work on a Sunday. You also should factor in HDOs etc. so you are probably left with only ordering locally possibly limited to 100 days a year or so.

Go back and read what I said in the last paragraph of #20 above, and the first paragraph of #21. First of all, there is no question of sin here. The warehouse workers are going to be working on Sunday whether I order or not. My one little order isn’t going to make any difference in the grand scheme of things. Probably a lot of this is automated anyway. My resistance to Sunday work and commercialization, in this case, is more a symbolic gesture, a standing on principle. It is not a matter of “conscience” — “I will sin if I do this” — just a small way to protest the commercialization of Sunday and to “do the better thing” by choosing to abstain from unnecessary commerce, including online commerce, on Sunday. It is no more complicated than that. It is not a question of thinking “oh, no, somewhere downstream from this transaction, someone may work on Sunday, and we couldn’t have that”. Now that would be scrupulous.

If others wish to “fall into line” with the secular world, and make these little contributions — probably not even venially sinful — to Sunday becoming just another day of work and commerce, so be it. I think I’ll pass. Fifty years ago in this country, many businesses closed on Sunday. As I noted above, evangelical-run businesses such as Chick-fil-a and Hobby Lobby make it simple, they just close their doors, and so do many small family-run businesses, at least in the South. Even today, in countries such as Germany, they more or less close up shop. Poland is trying to implement this as well. A day of rest, away from unnecessary work, business, and commerce, is good even on a secular level.

 

[LisaB]

If others wish to “fall into line” with the secular world, and make these little contributions — probably not even venially sinful — to Sunday becoming just another day of work and commerce, so be it. I think I’ll pass.

It sounds like you already made up your mind. What’s your question for us?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

If others wish to “fall into line” with the secular world, and make these little contributions — probably not even venially sinful — to Sunday becoming just another day of work and commerce, so be it. I think I’ll pass.

It sounds like you already made up your mind. What’s your question for us?

The question was “any thoughts?”.

In other words, do you agree with me, and why? Or do you disagree with me, and why? Is there something here I’m missing? Or am I right to see this as a desacralization of the Christian Sabbath, even if just in a small way? Does the fact that it is done through a faceless, depersonalized medium — online — obscure the fact that, behind the scenes, it forces real people to do real work?

I really do not come on these forums with the mindset of “I have this dilemma and I am absolutely clueless, could all of you come to my aid, so that I will choose the right thing?”. If I were in that predicament, first of all, I’d research it myself, and if I absolutely couldn’t resolve the dilemma on my own, I’d seek out a priest faithful to the magisterium and traditional Catholic teaching, and ask him privately. I have been a Catholic for almost 45 years, and in that time, the Catholic Faith has been the central fact of my life. Even when my faith wavered, I knew deep down what was right and what was true, I just didn’t want to face it, didn’t want to deal with it, I wanted to do things my way, not God’s way. I have done a staggering amount of reading and studying, and not to sound cocky, sarcastic, or arrogant, but I am usually able to answer my own questions. That said, nobody can know everything, and nobody is so smart or knowledgeable, that they can’t benefit from other people’s points of view that perhaps they’ve never considered.

 

[Pitcairn17]

LisaB:

HomeschoolDad:

If others wish to “fall into line” with the secular world, and make these little contributions — probably not even venially sinful — to Sunday becoming just another day of work and commerce, so be it. I think I’ll pass.

It sounds like you already made up your mind. What’s your question for us?

The question was “any thoughts?”.

In other words, do you agree with me, and why? Or do you disagree with me, and why? Is there something here I’m missing? Or am I right to see this as a desacralization of the Christian Sabbath, even if just in a small way? Does the fact that it is done through a faceless, depersonalized medium — online — obscure the fact that, behind the scenes, it forces real people to do real work?

I really do not come on these forums with the mindset of “I have this dilemma and I am absolutely clueless, could all of you come to my aid, so that I will choose the right thing?”. If I were in that predicament, first of all, I’d research it myself, and if I absolutely couldn’t resolve the dilemma on my own, I’d seek out a priest faithful to the magisterium and traditional Catholic teaching, and ask him privately. I have been a Catholic for almost 45 years, and in that time, the Catholic Faith has been the central fact of my life. Even when my faith wavered, I knew deep down what was right and what was true, I just didn’t want to face it, didn’t want to deal with it, I wanted to do things my way, not God’s way. I have done a staggering amount of reading and studying, and not to sound cocky, sarcastic, or arrogant, but I am usually able to answer my own questions. That said, nobody can know everything, and nobody is so smart or knowledgeable, that they can’t benefit from other people’s points of view that perhaps they’ve never considered.

Consistent with your “fall into line” comment, I assume that you refrain from driving on Sunday (lest you need gas, requiring the “kid in the booth” to work); don’t eat out on Sundays (causing waitstaff to work, even if incrementally); go to a park (those security people and tempting food vendors); or perhaps even travel at all - wouldn’t want to make pilots et al have to work either. Unless seeking emergency medical care, none of the above activities seem to fall into the “Have to” category.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Consistent with your “fall into line” comment, I assume that you refrain from driving on Sunday (lest you need gas, requiring the “kid in the booth” to work); don’t eat out on Sundays (causing waitstaff to work, even if incrementally); go to a park (those security people and tempting food vendors); or perhaps even travel at all - wouldn’t want to make pilots et al have to work either. Unless seeking emergency medical care, none of the above activities seem to fall into the “Have to” category.

People can legitimately differ on what is “necessary” and what is “not necessary”. All of the things you note, possibly with certain reservations, can be viewed as legitimate tasks and diversions for a Sunday. Shopping for anything and everything, whether in a physical store or making orders online, is not necessary. I would be very interested to entertain answers along the line of “you need to be able to shop on Sunday, just like you would on any other day, to the extent you would on any other day, because [fill in the blank]”, explain why people didn’t see it this way 50-75 years ago, and explain why they were wrong and contemporary people are right.

For what it’s worth, I do try to get gas on Saturday instead of Sunday if I can, though using a pump that accepts a credit or debit card is such minimal work, that to fret about that aspect of it would indeed be scrupulous. In this case, it is more about the commercial activity (buying a $25 tank of gas) than anybody doing manual labor. My neighborhood gas station closes on Sunday. You will find that occasionally in the South. Likewise, we lead a very simple lifestyle, and we typically do not go into sit-down restaurants with table service, but where preparing food is concerned, somebody has to do it, whether at home or eating out. (As a side note, I was once a weekend house guest of an evangelical family. They cooked like madmen on Saturday precisely so they wouldn’t have to cook on Sunday. You talk about people who knew how to eat! I dined like a king that weekend.)

 

[Mrchatsworth]

Yeah, I already have my thoughts which were dismissed and argued. Based on what you normally post I’m charitably assuming this is just an exercise in thought meant to spark discussion. However I think it mirrors some very self righteous or scrupulous posts that appear on these boards. Also, we are in a time where actually doing any business on ANY day is severely limited due to the pandemic, not to mention the struggling businesses that are thankful for any type of order on any day. It’s just a bad look when we are arguing on what we are doing to be so holy and generally that happens when we ignore the bigger, harder things to change.
Your post and the question came off as needlessly preachy or scrupulous to me. I hope that’s not the case.

I’ve noticed with some of the scrupulous posts that it’s almost a form of spiritual bragging. (I accidentally chewed gum an hour before church am I in mortal sin?). Trust me, if you are anything like a normal human there are 500 things you’ve done more sinful than that in the last day…

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

I’ve noticed with some of the scrupulous posts that it’s almost a form of spiritual bragging.

I’ve noticed this too, although I don’t think @HomeschoolDad is guilty of it. I get the impression that he’s just a guy with a bit of Jesuitical bent who likes batting questions around for their own sake.

But I do know the posts you’re referring to them. There’s almost a performative vibe to them. The subtext is always “hey everyone, look how devout and orthodox I am! Over here, guys!”

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I’ve noticed this too, although I don’t think @HomeschoolDad is guilty of it. I get the impression that he’s just a guy with a bit of Jesuitical bent who likes batting questions around for their own sake.

Two of my professors in college brought up the SJs in commenting upon my intellectual approach (secular university, one of them Catholic, one not, the latter was a Yale Law alumnus). Yes, questions for their own sake, and for the edification of my fellow warriors in the Church Militant here on earth.

Presenting myself as “devout” is, I would hope, the last thing I would ever do. Presenting oneself as orthodox, guilty as charged. Being doctrinally orthodox is just a fact, not a value judgment. You either are, or you aren’t.

Also, we are in a time where actually doing any business on ANY day is severely limited due to the pandemic, not to mention the struggling businesses that are thankful for any type of order on any day.

Your point here is well-taken, though I seriously doubt Jeff Bezos is “struggling”. With the hazards of shopping in real life, online commerce should be doing very well — assuming the customer has the money to shop in the first place. Many people are without work right now.

It’s just a bad look when we are arguing on what we are doing to be so holy and generally that happens when we ignore the bigger, harder things to change.

Not to “be so holy”, but simply to obey the Third Commandment, both in letter and in spirit.

I have noticed lately, in the tenor of comments both here on CAF and elsewhere, that the Third Commandment is getting so whittled down, that the only thing that seems to remain of it, is the Sunday Mass obligation. It seems as though any kind of work or commerce whatsoever “gets a free pass” for this reason or that, under the rubric of it not being “servile work”. Thirty, fifty, 75, 100 years ago, then, were all those shopkeepers “being scrupulous” because they closed down on Sundays? Were all those housewives who didn’t do “deep cleaning” on Sundays restraining themselves needlessly? Are the Chick-fil-a and Hobby Lobby folks just being religious fanatics?

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Presenting oneself as orthodox, guilty as charged. Being doctrinally orthodox is just a fact, not a value judgment. You either are, or you aren’t.

It’s not about being orthodox. Some posters (and again, not you) sometimes try to signal orthodoxy as though it’s a stock personality they can inhabit. It’s like they’re playing this role of “Mr. Traditionalist Catholic” the way the kid in all black and the combat boots is playing “tortured, edgy young artist.” It’s not the doctrinal beliefs that are annoying: it’s the contrived personality that sometimes goes with them.

Its the unnecessary shoehorning of Latin phrases into casual conversation type of person. Or the “why yes, I do own ten pipes and a bunch of tweed driving caps, why do you ask?” Or even just the tendency towards extremely stilted, formal posting.

To be clear, not talking about you here.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Its the unnecessary shoehorning of Latin phrases into casual conversation type of person. Or the “why yes, I do own ten pipes and a bunch of tweed driving caps, why do you ask?” Or even just the tendency towards extremely stilted, formal posting.

To be clear, not talking about you here.

No, I only own one pipe, now retired due to my insurance company’s fatwa against tobacco use, $200/month surcharge which I can’t afford, and likewise, I only have one tweed driving cap.

Latin phrases often sum up in a couple of words what would take a whole paragraph to say in English — mirabile dictu, ceteris paribus, mutatis mutandis, and so on.

I have too much on my plate in life, to be any sort of poseur.

 

[Mrchatsworth]

Obligatory Ivy League reference. Check.
Latin phrase thrown in after the example was cited. Check.
Pipe mentioned with obligatory complaint about how it can’t be used (Props for using insurance instead of the cliche “wifey”). Check.
Issue or moral question that is completely tone deaf to the moral and physical crisis our world is facing.check.
A shot at a rich man completely ignoring the real people, businesses and products that are affected during this time. Check
Moral superiority asserted by a meaningless boycott or way of conducting business designed to have a “feel good” effect but no real moral change of hearts. Check.

All we need now is to start rearranging furniture on this ship that hit the iceberg called 2020.

I think I got the basics…

(Homescooldad. All in good cheer! Just adding some satire I hope you appreciate. No malice intended sir!)

Also, in honor of this thread. I’ll be purchasing something online on Sunday. Grrr. Gonna have to pay for next day shipping…

 

[Irishmom2]

Latin phrases often sum up in a couple of words what would take a whole paragraph to say in English — mirabile dictu, ceteris paribus, mutatis mutandis , and so on.

Yeah, well did it ever occur to you that some people need the paragraph you say it would take to say the same thing? Not everyone knows Latin, so why use it?

 

[Bill_B_NY]

To be clear, not talking about you here.

Who are you talking about?

I get kicked off of CAF for lightly suggesting about half of what you said, about different sorts of people. But people need to protect their own - understood.

 

[Bill_B_NY]

I saw a recent news item about how some people want to make disagreements against their views illegal.
That’s a clever way to do it.
Say something provocative and then whoever objects to it gets arrested for causing a disturbance.

 

[Irishmom2]

Sometimes it’s how people say it.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Obligatory Ivy League reference. Check.
Latin phrase thrown in after the example was cited. Check.
Pipe mentioned with obligatory complaint about how it can’t be used (Props for using insurance instead of the cliche “wifey”). Check.
Issue or moral question that is completely tone deaf to the moral and physical crisis our world is facing.check.
A shot at a rich man completely ignoring the real people, businesses and products that are affected during this time. Check
Moral superiority asserted by a meaningless boycott or way of conducting business designed to have a “feel good” effect but no real moral change of hearts. Check.

Reducing the Third Commandment to a mere precept of the Church regarding the “Sunday Mass obligation” (a turn of phrase that sounds absolutely terrible in English, by the way) and giving the green light to any and all forms of labor and commerce that fall outside the narrowly defined rubric of “unnecessary servile work”, check.

Again, all in good cheer. Your litany actually made me chuckle. Good job.

HomeschoolDad:

Latin phrases often sum up in a couple of words what would take a whole paragraph to say in English — mirabile dictu, ceteris paribus, mutatis mutandis , and so on.

Yeah, well did it ever occur to you that some people need the paragraph you say it would take to say the same thing? Not everyone knows Latin, so why use it?

These are pithy turns of phrase known and used by many educated people. My knowledge of Latin, outside of the liturgy, is actually quite spotty. I’m basically self-taught. There is always Google to look it up, or to paraphrase the late great William F Buckley Jr — practically a patron saint to me — consult your dictionary.

Excuse me, I need to go motoring in my tweed driving cap now, and enjoy a pipeful of Cavendish. I won’t tell the insurance people if you don’t.

 

[Mrchatsworth]

@HomeschoolDad
Since we are discussing how our commerce should reflect our faith, what of the odd ads on this apostolate’s site? Some inappropriate, some off target, some anti catholic. Some plain old weird. Perhaps we should clean our own house first before debating such a niche ethical question.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Excuse me, I need to go motoring in my tweed driving cap now, and enjoy a pipeful of Cavendish. I won’t tell the insurance people if you don’t.

I was about to rend my garments but you did say “motoring” so ima let this one slide.