Online survey reveals "favorite" liturgical music

[pnewton]

MusicMan:

That is because of the hemiola caused when the voice part is in 4/4 time and the accompaniment is in 8/8 (3+3+2) in the verses.

I thought it was that G chord that starts on a C# (if memory serves correct). I had to make up a new chord fingering to make it work. It took quite a while.

 

[mosher]

pnewton:

And none of it “bans” specific songs, as the list earlier did. I need no list to tell my which jives with Catholic theology and which is imprudent. I know what my priest teaches and our parish is firmly grounded in, and what is too squishy and could cause confusion. This is why guidelines are given, not approved lists.

That is true but they lay down the principles needed to determine what is sacred music and what is not. The documents work against the idea that determination of music quality is subjective but that rather there is an objective nature of music.

 

[mosher]

TAS2000:

Very nice general statement, with no backup, that implies that I haven’t done my homework. As I said, I have read all the official documents I can and they all support my position. Would you care to site an example of an official document that says anything to support the position that the “contemporary” music listed is NOT appropriate for mass?

My point is that much of the music may not be to an individual’s taste, but that doesn’t make it inappropriate. Many here will denigrate guitars as unfit for mass, but no official document has ever stated such. Until I see an official document to that effect, I will not refuse to let someone use their talents to try to praise the Lord. I WILL refuse to let them play songs by the Greatful Dead during mass. But just because something can be mis-used doesn’t mean it can’t be used in a good way.

No, I agree with you. My qualm is two-fold. The first issue that I have is that there seems to be a rejection of the notion that there is an objective nature to music. The second issue that I have is that very few parishes use anything other than the lowest option for music. Hymns are appropriate but they are a form of liturgical minimalism and I find that when just hymns are used thorughout the whole of the year it is a lack of understanding of general liturgical principles. Hymns may be appropriate to Sundays in Ordinary time but they are not a fitting option for Solemnities or Feast of Our Lord. I am not so much saying that it is wrong but rather that it is deficient.

 

[frommi]

mosher:

No, I agree with you. My qualm is two-fold. The first issue that I have is that there seems to be a rejection of the notion that there is an objective nature to music. The second issue that I have is that very few parishes use anything other than the lowest option for music. Hymns are appropriate but they are a form of liturgical minimalism and I find that when just hymns are used thorughout the whole of the year it is a lack of understanding of general liturgical principles. Hymns may be appropriate to Sundays in Ordinary time but they are not a fitting option for Solemnities or Feast of Our Lord. I am not so much saying that it is wrong but rather that it is deficient.

I’m not sure that hymns are the lowest common denominator.

I think sometimes it can be the ‘placement’ of music during the liturgy that is problematic.

For example, singing a 5 verse hymn during communion does not make much sense. I much prefer giving the assembly an easy refrain to sing over and and over again while the cantor handles the verses.

This allows for singing during the communion processional without books.

Chant is very lovely, and has a place, but more important to me is music that is redolent of the catholic faith and SINGABLE.

 

[TAS2000]

ok, I know this is off topic, but how do you guys get the “originally posted by” in your quotes? I just use the wrap quote button on the toolbar and paste stuff in from other posts. Do you type that manually, or what?

 

[jc-servant]

TAS2000:

Frankly, I am appalled by the attitude of many of the posters here. Apparently, there is no such thing as a GOOD liturgist, and there was some declaration from Rome that I don’t recall ever seeing that says no music written in the last 200 years is “worthy”. I find it insulting and extremely narrow minded.

I agree that some music is not suitable for church, but just because it isn’t in Latin and is newer than 400 years old, doesn’t automatically make it unworthy.

Ditto to the 10th power!

I love to sing during mass and according to many of these posters I would just be assaulting their ears with unworthy music. Not everyone is of European descent in the church and not everyone is longing with nostalgia for Latin hymns and chant at every mass. I have heard some wonderful contemporary music. I even like when our music director plays his trumpet during the processional of Easter mass. Perhaps I’m just happy in my ignorance of what would be perfect music during mass. I’m pleased to merely have vocalists at my parish who can carry a tune when I return home after visiting my parents.

 

[mosher]

frommi:

I’m not sure that hymns are the lowest common denominator.

I think sometimes it can be the ‘placement’ of music during the liturgy that is problematic.

For example, singing a 5 verse hymn during communion does not make much sense. I much prefer giving the assembly an easy refrain to sing over and and over again while the cantor handles the verses.

This allows for singing during the communion processional without books.

Chant is very lovely, and has a place, but more important to me is music that is redolent of the catholic faith and SINGABLE.

Chant is very singable. I know many parishes that exclusively use chant and I have never heard a parish where more people sing. Poliphany is another story. But the liturgical documents do not say that the music is to be singable but rather it gives the hierarchy of liturgical music:

1. Gregorian Chant
2. Sacred Poliphany
3. Other approved Hymns

That is far from approaching things from the 4 hymn model which is not very catholic. Also, pride of place is to be given to the actual words of the liturgy and these should be sung if possible. Hence the book “By Flowing Waters” which has done a great job of translating the propers of the Novus Ordo into english so that they can be sung.

 

[mosher]

jc-servant:

Ditto to the 10th power!

I love to sing during mass and according to many of these posters I would just be assaulting their ears with unworthy music. Not everyone is of European descent in the church and not everyone is longing with nostalgia for Latin hymns and chant at every mass. I have heard some wonderful contemporary music. I even like when our music director plays his trumpet during the processional of Easter mass. Perhaps I’m just happy in my ignorance of what would be perfect music during mass. I’m pleased to merely have vocalists at my parish who can carry a tune when I return home after visiting my parents.

And that is what is sad. The state of liturigcal music today is apalling. But, it doesn’t have to be. The problem is that people for some reason think that high liturgical music can’t be done by the parish. First of all, I find it insulting when I hear people say that people in the pews can’t do this or that I recoil at the elitism. I know of not a few parishes that have childrens choirs that sing Mozart and Hyden and some more complicated pieces. I know parishes that sing nothing but chant and all the people sing along and they actually sing the Creed in Choir (alternating people and schola). I am never satisfied with the lowest common denominator thinking especially when it comes to the liturgy. Also, for most people that desire Gregorian Chant in the liturgy it has nothing to do with nostalgia but rather it is a desire that we do what the Church wants us to do and the Church has stated over and over again that Gregorian Chant holds a primacy of place in liturgical music which is over an above any cultural aspects.

 

[Ace86]

1. On Eagle’s Wings (242) – tacitly banned
2. Here I Am, Lord (152) – tacitly banned
3. Be Not Afraid (146) – tacitly banned
4. You Are Mine (138) – never heard it anywhere
5. How Great Thou Art (76) – banned
6. Holy God, We Praise Thy Name (70) – welcome
7. Amazing Grace (69) – forbidden
8. All Are Welcome (58) – never heard it
9. Prayer of St. Francis (43) – tacitly banned
10. Ave Maria (42) – welcome
11. We Are Called (38). – banned
12. Let There Be Peace on Earth (36) – tacitly banned
13. I Am the Bread of Life (30) – banned after an incident
14. The Summons (30) – never head it
15. Panis Angelicus (29) – welcome
16. The Servant Song—Gillard (29) – never heard it
17. Pescador de Hombres (28) – never heard it
18. Servant Song—McCargill (28) – banned
19. Shepherd Me, O God (27) – tacitly banned
20. Ave Verum Corpus (26) – welcome
21. Lord of the Dance (24) – never heard it
22. One Bread, One Body (24) – tacitly banned
23. Tantum Ergo (24) – welcome
24. Hosea (23) – never heard it
25. Pange Lingua (23) – welcome

The music director at the seminary while I was there was a student who had a good sense of what was liturgically proper and what was not. They would meet on a regular basis with the Rector to talk about these things. Pretty much we stuck to Adoremus and some selections of Worship II. However, on the first wednesday of every month the liturgy would be in latin and we mostly used the Missa de Angelis for the ordinary including the creed and the hyms fit the time of the year.

Yeah. That’s awesome. The reason most of these contemporary songs are unacceptable is because they lack sound theology and sound like a Broadway musical hit.

 

[mosher]

Ace86:

Yeah. That’s awesome. The reason most of these contemporary songs are unacceptable is because they lack sound theology and sound like a Broadway musical hit.

Agreed. I was once confronted with a situation that brought me into contact with a catholic family that travels around the country and performes and writes catholic music. We had a conference where they spoke to us all about the merits of contemporary music in the liturgy. Their line of reasoning was that music is subjective and needs to be pastorally implimented to the needs of the parish. I suggested that such reasoning would imply that there is some parish out there that would that would prefer a “rave” mass or “heavy metal” mass. He found that absurd because he felt that they were deficient forms of music … my response was that heavy metal has more in common with classical music then most contemporary music. Thus, an exestential determination of what is good music for liturgy is absurd. This is why the principles that guide us to determine what is sacred music must be followed if we are to fully realize the true effect that music is to have in the liturgy beyond emotionalism and cathartic banality.

 

[pnewton]

mosher:

The documents work against the idea that determination of music quality is subjective but that rather there is an objective nature of music.

Or that there is both an objective element that defines limits and an a subjective element that allows for local application. To think that good music is purely objective is like arguing whether 3/4 time is better than 4/4, or that the key of G is superior to the key of F.

 

[mosher]

pnewton:

Or that there is both an objective element that defines limits and an a subjective element that allows for local application. To think that good music is purely objective is like arguing whether 3/4 time is better than 4/4, or that the key of G is superior to the key of F.

It is not a question of whether it is good music or not but rather it is a question of whether it is sacred music or not.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

Vatican II said that there is more value in the musical treasury of the Church than in any of the other arts it has. Now, Contemporarianism (as opposed to Antiquarianism) would seek to use only the new hymns to “edify” the faithful. But, if we do so, we are throwing to the dogs the greatest treasure the Church posesses.

Therefore, I am absolutely opposed to hymnals in which no trace of old music is to be found. Additionally, the hymnals, by not including Latin hymns, hinder the implementation of the Council’s decree that Latin is to be preserved as a liturgical language.

Anathema to all heretics.

 

[otm]

SMHW:

The results don’t surprise me at all. People like the songs they hear that have emotional impact on them. All the songs listed can be sung in such a way as to have a very emotional impact on those who are singing/listening.

Most people sitting in the pews are not thinking about the deeper theological meaning behind the the words of the song or what implications the ‘voice’ of the song has on them. They feel something. And the feeling is the basis on which they judge the song.

The same could be said for four part Palistrina, and a Bach Mass, and Gregorian chant sung in a cathedral with significant echo, by a group that actually knows how to sing it.

 

[pnewton]

mosher:

It is not a question of whether it is good music or not but rather it is a question of whether it is sacred music or not.

I agree somewhat. Sacred means set apart for a specific purpose. Most hymns meet this criteria, although a few modern songs are clearly not sacred (Wind Beneath My WIngs, e.g.).

But I think “good” also matters. Well done music is, in my opinion, better than poorly done music, all other things being equal.

 

[otm]

Confiteor:

I still contend that many of respondents to this survey were likely “liturgists” ; their (name removed by moderator)ut should be set aside due to conflicts of interest. However, however this list was derived (& the Adoremus lists as well), they really should take into account the direction from the Vatican on sacred music. This Pastoral Musician list clearly does NOT.

These are not hotlinked, but all can be accessed vua hotlink at:
adoremus.org/Actionsofholysee.html

March 5, 1967 - Musicam Sacram (Instruction on Music) Congregation for Rites

May 4, 1967 - Tres abhinc annos (Instruction II on Constitution on Liturgy) Sacred Congregation for Rites

March 26, 1970 - Roman Missal, General Instruction for the Roman Missal - Pope Paul VI
(Text of 4th edition, March 27, 1975)

September 5, 1970 - Liturgicae instaurationes (Instruction III on Constitution on Liturgy) Congregation for Divine Worship

April 1974 - Letter to the Bishops on the Minimum Repertoire of Plainchant
Congregation for Divine Worship

I find it interesting that the most recent document you cite is 31 years old. Is it just that they have had nothing to say in the last 31 years, or have they said something you do not wish to quote? my recollection is that a generation is considered 20 years, which makes your list a generation and a half old, and the earliest part pushing hard on 2 generations.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Servus Pio XII:

Vatican II said that there is more value in the musical treasury of the Church than in any of the other arts it has. Now, Contemporarianism (as opposed to Antiquarianism) would seek to use only the new hymns to “edify” the faithful. But, if we do so, we are throwing to the dogs the greatest treasure the Church posesses.

Therefore, I am absolutely opposed to hymnals in which no trace of old music is to be found. Additionally, the hymnals, by not including Latin hymns, hinder the implementation of the Council’s decree that Latin is to be preserved as a liturgical language.

Anathema to all heretics.

I’m absolutely opposed to hymnals in which no trace of music is to be found.

This includes most hymnals published in the state of Oregon.

 

[MusicMan]

pnewton:

Or that there is both an objective element that defines limits and an a subjective element that allows for local application. To think that good music is purely objective is like arguing whether 3/4 time is better than 4/4, or that the key of G is superior to the key of F.

For a long time, the Church actually fought music in the meter of 4 beats to the bar. 3 beats to the bar was considered perfect (the Trinity), and that was the time that we used for Church music. The Church even tried to prevent secular music of that time from being in 4.

And for a long time, music existed in modes, not keys… eventually we phased out the modes and just stuck to Ionian and Aeolian and they became our Major and Minor keys.

</history lesson>

 

[pnewton]

MusicMan:

For a long time, the Church actually fought music in the meter of 4 beats to the bar. 3 beats to the bar was considered perfect (the Trinity), and that was the time that we used for Church music. The Church even tried to prevent secular music of that time from being in 4.

Thanks for the lesson.

 

[MusicMan]

Laugh all you want… I speak the truth.