Online survey reveals "favorite" liturgical music

[pnewton]

MusicMan:

Laugh all you want… I speak the truth.

Of course you do. I do not doubt it. I just find it as funny as heck that someone would actually argue over something like that. I was sincere in my thanks for the lesson. I do find it intriguing, too.

Having people like you share your knowledge is great. Learning new things is one of my favorite things here.

 

[MusicMan]

Dr. Bombay:

I’m absolutely opposed to hymnals in which no trace of music is to be found.

This includes most hymnals published in the state of Oregon.

Those aren’t actually called hymnals, you know. I believe the proper term for them is “Music Issue.”

 

[Confiteor]

otm:

I find it interesting that the most recent document you cite is 31 years old. Is it just that they have had nothing to say in the last 31 years, or have they said something you do not wish to quote? my recollection is that a generation is considered 20 years, which makes your list a generation and a half old, and the earliest part pushing hard on 2 generations.

You are certainly welcome to post your own list of Vatican documents on music if you have identified some that are more recent. (Indeed that might be more helpful than implying I’m trying to hide something.) Of course, most of these documents tended to follow on the heels of Vatican II as you can see from the dates. A couple of others, like the JPII Chirograph on Sacred Music (2003), the more recent documents, Ecclesia de Eucharistia and Sacramentum Redemptoris, mainly draw on the ones I mentioned. All emphasize Gregorian chant, ensuring that the people know some Latin, etc.

 

[spiritblows]

I love “Here I am Lord”, it’s one of my favs. I also love “I am the Bread of Life”. I also love “Amazing Grace”. These three songs are melodically very appealling, and I’ve learned them on both the piano and guitar. The words are uplifting and inspirational.

I’m surprised at the negativity about some of these songs. “Eagles Wings” doesn’t do much for me but some of the older songs are not that great, from both the musical and lyrical standpoint. There are duds in every generation and genre. I think some people are just so uptite on this site, nitpicking over matters of taste, such as music. It really is tiring.

 

[spiritblows]

I also love “Shepherd me oh God”. It’s really well done by the Sat Vigil Mass Music guy at my church. He’s very talented and, incidentally, extremely devout. Really, I can’t believe the negativity on this thread. These are good songs, and obviously appeal and uplift people today. I can’t believe that people are sitting in the pews steaming about the music. Geez

 

[frommi]

mosher:

And that is what is sad. The state of liturigcal music today is apalling. But, it doesn’t have to be. The problem is that people for some reason think that high liturgical music can’t be done by the parish. First of all, I find it insulting when I hear people say that people in the pews can’t do this or that I recoil at the elitism. I know of not a few parishes that have childrens choirs that sing Mozart and Hyden and some more complicated pieces. I know parishes that sing nothing but chant and all the people sing along and they actually sing the Creed in Choir (alternating people and schola). I am never satisfied with the lowest common denominator thinking especially when it comes to the liturgy. Also, for most people that desire Gregorian Chant in the liturgy it has nothing to do with nostalgia but rather it is a desire that we do what the Church wants us to do and the Church has stated over and over again that Gregorian Chant holds a primacy of place in liturgical music which is over an above any cultural aspects.

Frankly, I think part of the problem is that music publishers, who after all are trying to make money, are putting pressure on composers to produce more and more music.

Couple this with the fact that some music directors are disciples of a certain composer or two (some like David Haas, some like Owen Alstott, etc.). When a composer brings out new music there exists a temptation to teach it to the assembly and use it.

This is a big mistake.

When you look at the sheer amount of music composed by some of these artists, there is now way all of it can be worked into the parish repertorie. Look at someone like Haas…the only song that probably the majority of parishes in this country knows by him is “Blest Are They”…and he’s written a LOT of music.

I think we need to strike a balance with the way we use music. I’m not sure that Mozart mass settings are any more valuable than ones written by Jan Vermust…except a choir gets to say they are singing Mozart.

 

[mosher]

spiritblows:

I love “Here I am Lord”, it’s one of my favs. I also love “I am the Bread of Life”. I also love “Amazing Grace”. These three songs are melodically very appealling, and I’ve learned them on both the piano and guitar. The words are uplifting and inspirational.

I’m surprised at the negativity about some of these songs. “Eagles Wings” doesn’t do much for me but some of the older songs are not that great, from both the musical and lyrical standpoint. There are duds in every generation and genre. I think some people are just so uptite on this site, nitpicking over matters of taste, such as music. It really is tiring.

The point is that the discussion is not about taste it is about what is Sacred Music and what is not. It is an important distinction. There are some chant tones that I am not fond of yet they still qualify as sacred music and there are some poliphony that I love that does not qualify as sacred music. The point is that there is an objective nature to music which has been demonstrated by the Church in her many documents on liturgical music.

 

[TAS2000]

Mosher, can you perhaps cite a definition of “sacred” as given by the many church documents? Specifically why these “modern” hymns don’t meet these objective qualifications? I can’t find anything that clearly defines objectively what is sacred.

 

[pnewton]

mosher:

The point is that the discussion is not about taste …

With a title like “Online survey reveals “favorite” liturgical music”

Hmm. Sounds like the thread is about tastes, or at least is as much about taste as anything else.

 

[spiritblows]

pnewton:

With a title like “Online survey reveals “favorite” liturgical music”

Hmm. Sounds like the thread is about tastes, or at least is as much about taste as anything else.

Of course it’s about taste. There are some people that practically worship the past around here, rejecting anything that was written in the last 40 years, and embracing anything old, no matter how moldy and uninspiring.

I absolutely cannot see what’s wrong about “Here I am Lord” which is based on Scripture.

“Here I am Lord” WORDS AND MUSIC, click here

It’s a great song, with wonderful lyrics. I love it!

 

[Ace86]

TAS2000:

Mosher, can you perhaps cite a definition of “sacred” as given by the many church documents? Specifically why these “modern” hymns don’t meet these objective qualifications? I can’t find anything that clearly defines objectively what is sacred.

In Sacrosanctum Concilium, the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council teach:

"The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services. But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations…In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man’s mind to God and to higher things. But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority (116, 120). "

Maybe that helps. Some modern hymns are vague. For example: “On Eagle’s Wings” Now the melody soars in that song and that must be the reason some people like it. But I don’t recall the Bible saying I am going to “shine like the sun”.

Ace86

 

[SMHW]

Ace86:

Maybe that helps. Some modern hymns are vague. For example: “On Eagle’s Wings” Now the melody soars in that song and that must be the reason some people like it. But I don’t recall the Bible saying I am going to “shine like the sun”.

Actually Matthew 13:43 says exactly that about the righteous.

The verses of “On Eagles Wings” are from Psalm 91. The refrain kind of picks and choses from various Bible verses including that line from Matthew. The part about the Eagles comes from Ezekial, I think. But I don’t know the verse offhand. I think it’s something about parent eagles catching the offspring when teaching them to fly.

 

[Confiteor]

spiritblows:

Of course it’s about taste. There are some people that practically worship the past around here, rejecting anything that was written in the last 40 years, and embracing anything old, no matter how moldy and uninspiring.

I absolutely cannot see what’s wrong about “Here I am Lord” which is based on Scripture.

“Here I am Lord” WORDS AND MUSIC, click here

It’s a great song, with wonderful lyrics. I love it!

This may not affect your enjoyment of the song --we seem to sing it often enough at my parish–but the link below indicates it is now a sort of gay anthem written by a fomer priest with a gay lifestyle. That doesn’t necessarily reflect on the merits or lack thereof of the hymn, but it may mean that our singing it in our parishes helps to support someone’s actively gay lifestyle, royalties and all.

https://carmelites.org/review/march2001/marchapril2001_8.pdf

 

[spiritblows]

Dear Confiter,
I’m sure that some authors of songs of yesteryear also were gay, I bet my bottom dollar. Some of them might have been child abusers, alcoholics, womanizers. Mozart was a known hedonist, yet his Requim Mass is famous. Michealangelo was also a known practising homosexual.

In short, I judge the song or artwork on it’s own merits, period.

 

[Lapsed]

As much as I love Gregorian chant and generally favour traditional hymns, How Great Thou Art fills me with awe, lifting my spirit and mind to God every time I sing or hear it. Seems to me that is what sacred music is supposed to do.

Here I Am Lord makes me cringe.

You may now resume your ongoing bicker…I mean discussion.

 

[MusicMan]

Here’s something for you all to consider:

What type of hymn is being sung at Mass?

1.) Are we singing hymns that praise God? (or in some cases Mary?)
2.) Are we singing hymns that are a commentary or rehash of the scriptures for that day?
3.) Are we singing hymns that make us the “Voice of God”?

Which of these three options is most correct? What ever answer the Vatican documents support will tell you whether or not that contemporary hymn you reallly like is appropriate or not.

 

[Ace86]

MusicMan:

Here’s something for you all to consider:

What type of hymn is being sung at Mass?

1.) Are we singing hymns that praise God? (or in some cases Mary?)
2.) Are we singing hymns that are a commentary or rehash of the scriptures for that day?
3.) Are we singing hymns that make us the “Voice of God”?

Which of these three options is most correct? What ever answer the Vatican documents support will tell you whether or not that contemporary hymn you reallly like is appropriate or not.

That is an excellent way of dealing with any hymn in my opinion.
I’d say that that 1 is the most correct and 2 is good because it could help with the Liturgy of the Word. 3 is out of the picture entirely. Of course these are general statements. What needs to be done is to look at each hymn individually and put it through a ‘test’ to see whether it is appropriate for Liturgy.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

MusicMan:

Those aren’t actually called hymnals, you know. I believe the proper term for them is “Music Issue.”

I’ll need to double check that. I’m sure they’re actually called “Tuneless Dreck Issue.”

 

[spiritblows]

Dr. Bombay:

I’ll need to double check that. I’m sure they’re actually called “Tuneless Dreck Issue.”

Er, ‘Dreck’ is a naughty word, Mr Bombay. I’m shocked and dismayed…

 

[Dr.Bombay]

spiritblows:

Er, ‘Dreck’ is a naughty word, Mr Bombay. I’m shocked and dismayed…

I thought we determined on this forum several months ago that “dreck” means dirt or mud in German. Not the “s” word.

Or did I sleep thru that discussion too? :yawn: