Only 31 deaths of children under age 15 involving COVID-19. Common flu-related child deaths from 37 to 187 during regular flu season. Should Governors

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Fantastic article that accurately sums up this whole Covid situation…
" The politicians’ ignorance about the complexity of economic life was stunning, as was their hypocrisy. To a person, every elected official, every public health expert, and every media pundit who lectured Americans about the need to stay in indefinite lockdown had a secure (“essential”) job. Not one of them feared his employer would go bankrupt. Anyone who warned that the effects of the lockdowns would be more devastating than anything the coronavirus could inflict was accused of being a heartless capitalist who only cared about profits.

But to care about the economy is to care about human life, since the economy is how life is sustained. It is a source of meaning, as well as sustenance, binding humans to each other in a web of voluntary exchange. To its workers, every business is essential, and to many of its customers as well. Even judged by the narrowest possible definition of public health—lives lost—the toll from the lockdowns will exceed that of the virus, due to the cancellation of elective medical procedures, patients’ unnecessary fear of seeking medical treatment, and the psychological effects of unemployment."

 
tuffsmurf said:
So you would sacrifice some people in order to save others.
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Please explain what you mean by this.

And also please refer to my first post before you began trying to push me out of my original narrative. Typically when people get passive aggressive with me or put words in my mouth I just play along.

However, I am dead serious, if cases and fatalities continue to go straight up as they have been doing, schools should be virtual. If we can flatten out the curve to where services are not being overtaxed we can try phased or blended openings.
 
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Many people are suffering very much from the lockdown.
People with mental health problems. Children who aren’t living in the best of homes. And, perhaps most importantly, although not directly relevant for the first world: World hunger and starvation has been predicted to spike because of the economic regression.
 
pnewton said:
I even addressed the issue of this way of using science
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More from Kari Stefansson’s in-depth and detailed study in Iceland that we’ve been talking about:
https://spectator.us/evidence-children-passing-covid-19-relatives-icelandic-study/
Many countries are refusing to open their schools for fear of a prompting a second wave of coronavirus infections. But their policies would appear to be flatly contradicted by evidence from Iceland. There, a company called deCODE Genetics, in association with the country’s Directorate of Health and the National University Hospital, has analyzed the results of coronavirus tests on 36,500 people. The tests identified 1,801 cases of people suffering from the disease — and 10 deaths. Each case was carefully tracked. In not a single case could the researchers find evidence of a child passing on the disease to their parents. The company’s CEO, Kari Stefansson, revealed the findings in an interview carried on the British Science Museum website. He suggests the fact that few children suffer any symptoms, and are less likely to cough, is an important factor.

The Icelandic study reinforces the results of a review of evidence last week by the Royal College of Pediatricians and Child Health, which said it couldn’t find a single documented case of a child under 10 passing COVID-19 to an adult. In one case a nine-year-old boy returning from a skiing holiday in the Alps was found to be infected with SARS-CoV-2, the virus which causes COVID-19, as well as influenza and the common cold. He didn’t pass SARS-CoV-2 to anyone, in spite of coming into contact with 170 children. He did, however, pass the flu and cold to his siblings — but not SARS-CoV-2.

It ought to be pretty strong evidence that opening schools is safe, and is among the first moves which should be taken to exit from lockdown. But don’t bet against the unions squashing plans to open before September at the earliest.

To me, it looks about as scientific as you can get.
 
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1cthlctrth said:
To me, it looks about as scientific as you can get.
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It is good. However, the title is still begging the question. If you had asked something like, “Should the US rely on this Icelandic study,” then it would not be. Science is too broad for such a loaded question. For example, this study does nothing to explain the mechanism whereby children could possibly never infect parents. I, in fact, know one family where the child was the first known vector, making him the likely candidate. Anecdotal to be sure, but it does highlight the axiom that absence of evidence is not always evidence of absence. Even the scientist who was interviewed stated only, “What is interesting is that even if children do get infected, they are less likely to transmit the disease to others than adults.” I do think it offers some hope for those wanting to send their children to school. But if we were to rely on it, then we would also need to test at the rate they tested, sequencing and tracking the virus. That would be 35-40 million tests. Our country has lagged behind in testing.
 
Irishmom2 said:
he world has lived through epidemics, plagues and all kinds of sickness without ever closing schools permanently.

That is a ridiculous statement.
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blackforest said:
Nobody has proposed a “permanent” shut-down. Everything I’m seeing calls for temporary measures.
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Good points.
One point of the thread is to explore whether the same people who insist on shutting down schools for COVID-19 ever even consider shutting down every year for the seasonal flu. And, whether they are being inconsistent.
 
Online learning for younger kids is certainly difficult. Especially when parents need to work and some families don’t have access to reliable technology. Plus a major component of school is the social interaction and kids are being denied that when they have to stay shut in for months and years on end. And who is suffering the most? Probably kids from poor or abusive families whose main source of security and food and socialization and learning is at school. I think children are suffering a lot more and losing a lot more with schools closing than reopening even if there is a covid risk. The situation sucks, but you can’t close the world down forever especially when it harms many people more than catching covid would and there may never be a cure or vaccine
 
And by “people” you mean who, exactly? People of CAF?

Is that the purpose of this thread? One big attempt at “Gotcha! You said this opposite about this on this thread!!
 
1cthlctrth said:
if schools are closed for COVID-19, shouldn’t they always be closed because of the flu ?
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Covid vs flu comparisons are wrong. The flu makes one visibly sick (and avoidable) during much of the time they can spread it. Also, it’s not all about deaths. That’s a false dichotomy. There’s evidence that a large number of covid survivors will have life long injuries such as lung damage.

This doesn’t even account for the fact that 11% of poor children have asthma, a complicating factor for covid.
 
Interesting; you target protecting the most vulnerable.

Wonder why the US didn’t think of that before they shut down our schools and livelihoods…
 
Just making sure that you are aware that the Iceland study we’re talking about was Kari Stefansson’s study.
 
Little children stayed at home during the lock downs; they did not go shopping nor to parties nor to bars nor pool parties nor to the gym nor anywhere when things began to re-open.
Now the youngest are beginning day-care, and perhaps some will foolhardily be sent to school.
No (very little) exposure to now, but shortly the intense exposure will begin, and first the infection rate will begin to move to the under 18 age groups, then the hospitalizations will take a percentage, as will the deaths in the sequential weeks, and finally, after a goodly number have sacrificed their lives, or the lives of their parents, siblings, grandparents (or the president has sacrificed them to his god) then a new shut down will possibly be called without an apology.
Good luck doubters - no sickness yet for these easily quarantined children, but now the quarantine comes off and the round is about to begin.
 

It’s a 90 minute podcast, but most of the COVID related discussion ends after 50 minutes.

It’s non-political straight talk. Occurred on March 20.

Dr. Michael Osterholm: He is Regents Professor, McKnight Presidential Endowed Chair in Public Health, the director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy (CIDRAP), Distinguished Teaching Professor in the Division of Environmental Health Sciences, School of Public Health, a professor in the Technological Leadership Institute, College of Science and Engineering, and an adjunct professor in the Medical School, all at the University of Minnesota.
  • Dr. Osterholm: Career spent in detecting and eradicating diseases and responding and preparing for them. Worked for both Democrat and Republican governors.
  • Will be about 10-15 times worse than a typical flu seasons.
  • 96,000,000 cases; 48,000,000 hospitalizations; 480,000 deaths over the next 3-7 months.
  • Primary risk factor is being old and comorbidities such as smoking, obesity, heart disease, high blood pressure.
  • 45% of the US is obese (which can explain why our country is at higher risk than e.g.: Taiwan)
  • Speaks of the amount of misinformation.
  • Was correct about the timing.
  • Gloves and masks are largely non-sense.
  • Trying to stop the flu is like trying to stop the wind and the only way to stop it is thru a vaccine. This coronavirus is the same.
  • Make sure you protect the most vulnerable.
  • We will not have a vaccine any time soon
  • Kids are not getting sick and this is a good feature of the disease, although they do not know why. There are other diseases like this. There are also diseases that target the young (primarily 18-25 years)
  • If we close schools, 38% of nurses have kids in school and if we close schools, who takes care of the kids? It’s not a do-everything-we-can type attitude (e.g.: close schools), and it could be more harmful than it does good, and we need a thoughtful approach.
  • About all we can do at this point is to limit contact.
  • CDC has been telling the government to prepare for decades (this includes Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton…).
  • This is not a “don’t worry” nor a “end-of-the-world” type scenario.
  • Other corona viruses did not go away with the seasons.
  • This will continue to be around for months, and how long are we prepared to cancel everything?
  • Eventually enough people will become infected and the spread will stop.
  • The death rate is between 2 and 3% but qualifies it saying we have not picked up on all the people who have had mild cases, and ultimately lands on about a 1% rate based on his above numbers (will hit the oldest and comorbidities the worst) - somewhere between 0.1% and 3%.
continued…
 
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Continued…
  • Spanish flu was a 3% death rate (hit the 18-25 years old the worst).
  • We cannot stop working.
  • Data is very weak this virus is transmitted on surfaces and hand sanitizer is not likely effective for this virus. This is primarily done because people just want to “do something”.
  • The masks are not going to protect you, because they allow air to come in on the sides and they are not effective at all.
  • Masks are only partially effective if you are sick and they may contain some of the virus if you cough out.
  • Discusses a previous situation where he had to tell some parents about meningitis about how it was going to kill 1 in 7 people and the first reaction was “why did you tell people?” and the response was “because it’s the truth and people can handle the truth”.
 
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Elizabeth3 said:
My local schools are giving parents the option to have their child take all their classes online or go to school with various measures in place. This will cut down on the number of students who will be attending so it will be easier to social distance.
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It’s not going to change class sizes at all. My school district has about 10,000 students. Of those, only 300 have opted for the at-home online plan.
There are schools and daycares in session all over the world. Some never closed. The statistics are just not there that justify keeping all children home for an unknown amount of time.
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It is my fervent prayer that you are able to laugh in my face this time next year over all my unnecessary worry. That the one or two studies whose communities do not mirror the US at all were correct and no one gets sick and dies. Please, dear Lord!
 
Elizabeth3 said:
I guess all teachers never go to the store, church, family gatherings, medical appointments, restaurants etc.
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I head to the grocery store every week to ten days. That’s it.

I go to mass every week or two, in a church building designed for a thousand but only allowing 200. I wear a mask, and I sit 6 or 10 or 20 feet from the nearest other person.

I have not been to family gatherings, or gatherings with friends, or restaurants.
What makes teachers special? They can mask. They can hand wash. They can sanitize.
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I am blessed to have a sink in my classroom, and I guarantee you I was a regular handwasher before it was cool.

As for what makes me “so special”… I’m not asking to be treated “special.” When countries around the world closed down to save lives I worked from home – 12 - 15 hour days sometimes. And we reached out to students via our online grading/communication/lesson platform. And we reached out to them by phone call, emails, Dojo, and in person (from a safe distance and with masks).

And let me make something perfectly clear – working at a grocery store, or in an office building, or at a home improvement store is NOT the same as being cooped up in a classroom with 20 to 30 students for 7 hours a day. The level of exposure is exponentially higher than passing someone in the aisle at a store.
They can minimize the number of kids they are exposed to by keeping kids and their teacher in small groups isolated from other small groups at school like my local middle school plans on doing.
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Keeping kids in small groups? Really?

And just where are the extra teachers coming from to teach the extra groups that will need to be made? And where are these extra groups going to hold classes when every available room in the building was already being used before the pandemic? If you haven’t already asked your local middle school, it might be time to make a phone call to find out.
 
EXdrinker said:
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Gertabelle:
Personally I’m getting a little tired of the cavalier and sometimes even hostile attitudes I’m seeing towards teachers’ lives.
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Remember that you can always find a job that you believe poses less risk. You are voluntarily going through all of this, no one is forcing you to do it.
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Rubbish. I am not “voluntarily going through all of this.” Teachers are constantly expected to solve ALL of society’s problems, and it’s just ridiculous. To be a teacher is to teach. That’s it. I can teach in my classroom. I can teach in the field behind my school (weather permitting, which is doesn’t usually – too hot, too cold, too wet). I can teach online, and do it very well, thank you very much.

As a single mom with a mortgage and student loans up to my ears, I can’t just quit. Nor can I take a year’s leave of absence, as I don’t just happen to have tens of thousands of dollars stuffed into my mattress.

If I am being forced to risk my life so the economy can keep moving, the problem isn’t teachers, darling – the problem is society. Teachers are not the country’s babysitters. If that’s what you’re thinking, then I’ll put this simply for you – you’re wrong.

If the country wants teachers to be babysitters, we’ll dump the whole property tax structure of funding, and parents can just pay us directly.

That’ll be $15 an hour – I do have 23 years of experience, am offering highly engaging and educational activities for your child, AND I have a master’s degree plus an additional 75 hours of post-graduate study.

$15 and hour
25 children in a class
7 hours a day (I’ll even give up a moment to myself for your darling children’s sake)

And let’s say I babysit these children for 170 days of the school year.

That’s a mere $17,850 per child for the school year.

Multiply that times 25 children per class, and I’ll have nearly enough money to run for President in no time.
I am personally getting very tired of the cavalier attitudes towards millions of people’s lives and liberty by shutting so much of our economy down and causing them financial, psycological, and spirtual ruin.
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So forget teaching. I’m now expected to solve the financial, psychological and spiritual health of the nation. I’m surprised you would ask this of me, are you seem to view me as a selfish leech on society, unwilling to make a martyr of myself to make your life more convenient.

So which is it?

Are teachers the saviors of the nation, the only ones capable of keeping the economy afloat and the only ones capable of solving the mental health issues of our children?

Or are we the lowest of the low, self-serving, greedy wretches that should not be trusted?

As a public school teacher, I’ll leave you to handle your own spiritual affairs.
 
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