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Zadeth
Guest
I’ve seen some people show that Luke 13:22-30 states that only a certain few will be saved and brought to Heaven. Can anyone expand upon this, or give the alternative opinion? Thanks.
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TomFromMD
Guest
Jesus doesn’t say that few will be saved, but he implies that many won’t be.
What qualifies as "few"or “many” out of the billions of people that have existed or will exist?
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Confiteor_Deo
Guest
Yes, I would say that many, even most, people are going to hell since that is what Our Lord told us. The way to heaven is narrow and tread by few while the wide road is tread by many. We don’t presume to know how many, but we know that it is many. This can be seen from the fact that only one billion people are Catholics and the rest are not. Of the people in the Church, we know not all will go to heaven, and as for those without, it is hopeful if a few will make it to heaven without the Church.
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JurisPrudens
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Confiteor_Deo
Guest
Yes, even if a small fraction of the whole human population were to go to heaven, that would be millions and millions of people. But that doesn’t consider the huge number of those in hell which very well may outweigh the number of those in heaven.
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mikekle
Guest
That speaks volumes (if accurate) that a large majority of Gods creations would actually choose NOT to worship him or have anything to do with him…That is a HUGE, effectively it means the enemy has succeeded at turning all these people away from God, and/or it shows Gods word (the bible) was not as successful…WOW, that has to have huge implications…right?
Will God be sitting there in the end, shaking his head, saying “what did I do wrong that a majority of my creations chose to turn their backs on me”?
Will God be sitting there in the end, shaking his head, saying “what did I do wrong that a majority of my creations chose to turn their backs on me”?
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hapidawg
Guest
Clearly God will not be saying or thinking that He did anything wrong since He is incapable of wrong. God does not send people to Hell, man chooses Hell by his rejection of the free gift of eternal life.
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Confiteor_Deo
Guest
No, He would be saying that the sinful did wrong in rejecting Him and damning themselves. This is seen when the reprobate plea to Him in the book of the Apocalypse and He says “you did not clothe Me, visit Me…”. It is not God’s fault, it is the lukewarm Catholics that are at fault as Pope St. Pius V said, “all evils in the world are due to lukewarm Catholics”.
As the Church Militant, we have the duty to fight and pray for the salvation of souls.
And this is the argument against the proposition: how could it be that the kingdom of Satan would be larger than the Kingdom of God?
No, I lean more towards the opinon that while many will indeed be lost, at the end of time when God raises the dead, the saved will outnumber the damned. It has to be, for the honour and glory of his name at the end of time.
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jaimeleglise
Guest
I believe that in the Agony of the Garden, Jesus saw the suffering He was to endure, and the vast number of souls that would turn away from Him and be lost forever. It must have been heartwrenching to know your suffering would be wasted on many people. He loves us and wants us all to be saved.
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JMM1957
Guest
Are you sure of that? What do you base your opinion on? Where in the Bible does it suggest that what you say will be true? Do you think somehow that Satan would be declared the winner if more of human creation went along his path as opposed to following Jesus path? God never said that when it is all said and done, that he would have more on his side than Satan. We all have freedom of choice, that’s it. You believe that don’t you? Unless you believe that God right from the start predestined the saved to be automatically larger than the number of those that are condemned.
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truetofaith
Guest
Sounds good to me!
That is exactly what I believe.
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JMM1957
Guest
Don’t misunderstand, I believe God’s grace enables us to choose to do His will and accept Him, grace united with our free will. What I question is how this all play’s out in the end as far as how many are saved and how many are not saved. I don’t recall any particular Biblical verses that tell us “more” of mankind will be saved than not. I think Jesus talking about the “wide and narrow gate” gives us a picture of how it may be, don’t you think?
There isn’t any, but the Church does not require us to hold on to a rigorist interpretation of the Gospel passages. One can make a reasoned assumption that the predestined outnumber the reprobate on the basis of the universal desire for salvation (“God desires that all men be saved” 1 Tim 2:4), his sovereign will to predestine to salvation and that it is of greater glory to his name that most men are saved than lost, for it is reasonable to assume that the Kingdom of God should not be outnumbered by the kingdom of Satan.
Since we are free to hold on to this interpretation, I choose to hold to this interpretation, that the predestined outnumber the reprobate.
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mikekle
Guest
Yes, he never said he would have more on his side, but God did say he would triumph over evil (the enemy) in the end though, if satan ends up with FAR more souls in his ‘kingdom’, that seems to show that he has indeed won, in that HE was more successful at turning people away from God compared to Gods word, the bible, drawing people towards God.
We can speculate about this, but in the end, I dont think we have all the pieces of the puzzle so to speak, we are using human logic to basically guess about this, I sort of think there is MUCH more to all this than we know about.
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JMM1957
Guest
I understand what you are saying, I really don’t mean to imply that I believe Satan’s kingdom “will” outnumber God’s Kingdom. As you say, we are free to speculate on this subject. I can see the logic in believing the saved will outnumber the damned, and I surely would hope and pray that it would turn out that way.
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fred_conty
Guest
Maybe it will depend on whether we beg God to have mercy on the unfortunate…then more will be saved rather than less.
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patmiron
Guest
Perhaps the clearest teaching on this is the parable of the Narrow gate:
Mt. 7:13-20 “Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it! Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them”
If your seeking REAL numbers, ONLY God Knows.What qualifies as "few"or “many” out of the billions of people that have existed or will exist?
BUT their are World wide some 50 MILLION + abortions annually
Untold numbers of Married validly and then BY CHOICE divorced and REMARRIED
READ **Mt, 5: 31-32 **“And it hath been said, whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a bill of divorce. But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery”
Then the unknown number of those outside of the SALVATION Jesus teaches in the bible as being through His ONE True Catholic-Church [exempted are those WHO THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN DO NOT KNOW THIS TEACHING]
Then look at all the myriad of other MORAL sins which Do separate one from God unless Confessed and Forgiven: 1 Jn.1: 6-7; 1 Jn.5: 16-17 & Jn. 20:19-23
Each of the 10 Commandments which are by the way Catagories of possible sins; NOT the entire list of them; holds the potential for 1 or more MORTAL sins
Then in the USA look at all the advoactes of SSA, and SSA-“marriage”… ALL MORTAL SINS
And then ask yourself; “SELF HOW MANY PEOPLE DO I PERSONALLY KNOW THAT ARE LIVING A LIFE THAT WOULD AT LEAST SEEM TO INDICATE THAT THEY MIGHT BE; MAY BE; HEAVEN BOUND?”
God Bless you, and thanks for asking,
Pat Miron
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JMM1957
Guest
I realize we are in no position to judge other people, because we all have “logs” in our own eyes, but it does get discouraging and depressing when you look around at the whole world and see all the people that seem to be taking the “broad gate”. Surely, these could come to repentance at any time, so we should pray constantly for them while we can.
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