Only a Few Will Be Saved?

[BobCatholic]

“The Little Number of Those Who Are Saved” by St. Leonard of Port Maurice

A very depressing read.

 

[Valentinus]

“The Little Number of Those Who Are Saved” by St. Leonard of Port Maurice

A very depressing read.

He warns in the beginning that it is not intended for pious souls, only for great sinners; if you read it carefully, it does not even conclude that indeed few are saved.

God bless, V.

 

[Sirach2]

Hi Zadeth,

Our apologist here at CAF gave you some excellent resources when you inquired last year about salvation. I sincerely hope you have read them and that they helped you understand our Catholic position on these issues that you have been perplexed about.

The last link about salvation would be a good place to start. As for putting numbers on how many are saved, it can be a useless exercise troubling your mind, for nobody really can answer that. Just trust in Our Lord, and avoid speculations like this.

Peace, bro -

 

[clem456]

I’ve been reading as much info about Massa Damnata that I can from the early Church Fathers.

Here’s how only few are saved:

I’m not sure if your post is a sincere position or a parody of a position…

• Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is true (So if you’re not Catholic your out).

False

• Catholics who are not in full communion with the Church. There were 500 people or so at Mass the other day, and only my wife and I were the only ones in the confessional prior to Mass. Imagine how many Catholics may be in mortal sin and still receive the Eucharist

You assume that because you went to confession you and your wife are in a higher spiritual state than the other 500?

• If Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is valid, then any Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, etc is automatically on the road to perdition.

False

• If 7 billion people are on the planet, and you subtract all these above factors you can see how only few make it. Say 30,000 people worldwide die right now at this very moment. Say 3,000 of those are Catholic. Now say that only 25 do not have any mortal sins on them. But out of these 25, 21 still have venial sins on them. Using this logic: Out of 30,000 people, only 21 went to Purgatory and 4 went to Heaven. The rest were damned…

I suppose the best answer to this is Luke 18: 9-14
The road is indeed narrow, and the “full” will have a tough time squeezing in.

 

[clem456]

Hi Zadeth,

Our apologist here at CAF gave you some excellent resources when you inquired last year about salvation. I sincerely hope you have read them and that they helped you understand our Catholic position on these issues that you have been perplexed about.

The last link about salvation would be a good place to start. As for putting numbers on how many are saved, it can be a useless exercise troubling your mind, for nobody really can answer that. Just trust in Our Lord, and avoid speculations like this.

Peace, bro -

Yes it is speculation. Speculation doesn’t serve much good purpose.
How can anyone know the mind of God? It’s an attempt to quantify an immeasurable gift from an infinitely good being (AKA God), and pretend we know how his grace and justice are measured out.

 

[clem456]

The Catholic understanding of predestination does state that God decrees (it is an active ordinance, not merely passive foreknowledge) who will be saved. Whether this is considering man’s foreseen merits or without consideration of them is an open question; the Church has not defined it and Catholics are free to hold on to either position.

The proper understanding of predestination also requires us to hold that God desires all to be saved (i.e. the universal desire of salvation). Therefore, he does not predestine anyone to hell without consideration of any foreseen demerits. This condemns Calvinistic double-predestination as a horrible, twisted vision of God’s sovereignty, love and justice.

BUT, and here is where Catholics are often tripped up. We also do hold that God DOES predestine people to hell too; this is called the mystery of reprobation. However, we do NOT hold that this reprobation is unconditional. Just as with predestination, it involves man’s free will and is always in consideration of one’s foreseen demerits. And just the predestined/elect, the number of the reprobate is both immutable and unknown.

This is why I tend to lean towards the Molinist position, because it presents a consistent view of both predestination and reprobation, although the Thomist/Banezan position on predestination is also quite attractive. The problem I have with the Thomist position is that they don’t have a good counterpart for reprobation; applying the Thomist position to reprobation pretty much equals Calvinist double-predestination.

Predestination is one of the most difficult concepts grasp, but it IS a de fide teaching of the Catholic faith. So hold on to the Thomist, Molinist or some other acceptable position, but Catholics are not permitted to deny it.

The reason predestination is hard to grasp is that we think in time.
God is outside of time. All moments are present.

We are required to think about cause/effect in linear fashion. So it is hard to separate the process and results of our free acting from God’s providence and knowledge. God sees it all at once.

 

[porthos11]

The reason predestination is hard to grasp is that we think in time.
God is outside of time. All moments are present.

We are required to think about cause/effect in linear fashion. So it is hard to separate the process and results of our free acting from God’s providence and knowledge. God sees it all at once.

Not just that. Its main difficulty is reconciling God’s sovereignty/decree and grace with man’s free will, all of which must be simultaneously upheld for orthodox belief.

 

[BobCatholic]

He warns in the beginning that it is not intended for pious souls, only for great sinners; if you read it carefully, it does not even conclude that indeed few are saved.

God bless, V.

He does not define what pious souls are, and I’m not going to judge myself as pious.

Where does it conclude that indeed few are saved? That’s the overwhelming theme of the sermon.

 

[Sirach2]

He does not define what pious souls are, and I’m not going to judge myself as pious.

Where does it conclude that indeed few are saved? That’s the overwhelming theme of the sermon.

Hi Bob and Valentius,

Please note that this sermon has been debunked many times on CAF as pure hear-say and the reader can not put any credence in it.

The following narrative from Saint Vincent Ferrer will show you what you may think about it. He relates that an archdeacon in Lyons gave up his charge and retreated into a desert place to do penance, and that he died the same day and hour as Saint Bernard. After his death, he appeared to his bishop and said to him, “*Know, Monsignor, that at the very hour I passed away, **thirty-three thousand **people also died. Out of this number, **Bernard and myself **went up to heaven without delay, **three *went to purgatory, and all the others fell into Hell.”

Note that St. Leonard is repeating a story from St. Vincent, who speaks about a deacon who claims that he had a vision from St. Bernard who appeared to him. All of this is unsubstantiated, and the Church has never given any credence to this private vision as being authentic. Seems that both St. Leonard and St. Vincent did not exercise prudence in their discernment of spirits, but repeated an unsubstantiated apparition as being true.

 

[claymcdermott]

If anyone is still interested in the OP’s question, I would say this:

There is no utility in trying to get a percentage of the hell-bound. To paraphrase C.S. Lewis, when Jesus talks about Hell, he is not talking about the Nazis; he is not talking about my neighbor; he is not talking about my pastor; he is not talking about my little brother - he is talking about me.

I will go to Hell if I take the wide route. I will go to Hell if I take easy path. I must strive to enter by the narrow gate. That is hard. I must do it.

Jesus’ point in that was not to give you a rough idea of the ratio of elect to reprobate. It was to give you a command: “Strive to enter by the narrow gate!”

 

[clem456]

If anyone is still interested in the OP’s question, I would say this:

There is no utility in trying to get a percentage of the hell-bound. To paraphrase C.S. Lewis, when Jesus talks about Hell, he is not talking about the Nazis; he is not talking about my neighbor; he is not talking about my pastor; he is not talking about my little brother - he is talking about me.

I will go to Hell if I take the wide route. I will go to Hell if I take easy path. I must strive to enter by the narrow gate. That is hard. I must do it.

Jesus’ point in that was not to give you a rough idea of the ratio of elect to reprobate. It was to give you a command: “Strive to enter by the narrow gate!”

YES!