Only Christ.....

[JRKH]

What’s up truthmaker, I haven’t heard from you in a while.

You question is misleading. We Catholics do not pray to others to intercede to the Father for us, we pray to others, Mary and the saints, to intercede to Christ for us. Only through Christ can we get to the Father.

Now do you want to discuss what the Church really teaches or what your perception of the teachings are?

hhmmmm… I’m afraid I must disagree with you here.
I pray directly to the Father often, in fact I do so at every mass - and so do you.
We begin by saying, just as Jesus taught us to do -
Our Father who art in heaven
Hallowed be thy name…

Peace
James

 

[rev_kevin]

Rev Kevin, this is exactly what Catholics do we when ask the saints in heaven to pray for us to God. Do you agree that the saints in heaven are members of the body of Christ? Didn’t Paul say that as members of the body of Chirst we all need each other? When we pray to the saints we are asking them, as members of the body of Christ, to intercede for us just like I am going to ask you to intercede for me. Rev. Kevin will you pray for me?
God bless.

Yes I’ll pray to Jesus for you so he can go to God on your behalf.
Now lets look at what this Scripture says, “For there is one God, and one mediator, between God and MAN, the man Christ Jesus.”

Here it tells us there is one mediator and he is the Man Christ Jesus not Saints or anyone eles to be your mediator between God and man. It says clearly the only mediator between God and man is Christ Jesus, so we need to pray to Jesus only so he can go to God for us. If you {a man} are praying to Jesus for someone eles you are going to Christ Jesus and not through a Saint to go to God on your behalf. See a mediator is third party acting as a go-between and Christ Jesus is our go-between. When you intercede you are a go-between you and the one mediator, Christ Jesus. And we are told to intercede for one another. Jesus did not tell us to pray to Saints. Your words are “this is exactly what Catholics do when we ask Saints in heaven to pray for us TO GOD.” See you ask them to pray to God, not Jesus, so you are asking them to be the mediator between you and God and who is the mediator, not them, Christ Jesus is.

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

I think what this is saying is we can pray for others but only to Christ, not to anyone eles but Christ. Interceding for someone is different. Its still man praying to Christ not anyone eles.

Exactly. I pray for people ALL the time BUT in the name of Jesus (our Lord and Saviour)

I do not pray for others to Mary or any other saints to intercede for us because…

Jesus is the only one who can go to the Father. (what is the point of praying to someone else to pray to Jesus for us when He said to pray to him) I do not need to pray to someone else when Jesus hears me. Doesn’t that defeat the purpose?

Also, dead saints cannot hear prayers. The Bible SPECIFICALLY says that death means sleep. Nor does it mention that Mary was taken directly to Heaven.

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

I can ask you to pray for me, and I can ask Mary or another saint to pray for me. There is no difference.

You can intercede to Jesus for me, and Mary or another saint can intercede to Jesus for me. There is no difference…well, except the fact that they are already in heaven beholding the face of God…and they never grow tired or weary and pray without ceasing…and the fact they are already perfectly righteous so their prayers availeth much.

But other than that there is no difference.

Once again, dead saints can not hear prayers? Would you like to know what the Bible says about people who have died?

 

[rev_kevin]

I can ask you to pray for me, and I can ask Mary or another saint to pray for me. There is no difference.

You can intercede to Jesus for me, and Mary or another saint can intercede to Jesus for me. There is no difference…well, except the fact that they are already in heaven beholding the face of God…and they never grow tired or weary and pray without ceasing…and the fact they are already perfectly righteous so their prayers availeth much.

But other than that there is no difference.

Are you asking them to go to God for you or to Jesus? If it goes through Jesus then its ok but if you ask them to go directly to God then they are acting as a mediator which they are not. If you want Mary or another Saint of pray for you I don’t care. I don’t pray to them.

 

[Lapey]

hhmmmm… I’m afraid I must disagree with you here.
I pray directly to the Father often, in fact I do so at every mass - and so do you.
We begin by saying, just as Jesus taught us to do -
Our Father who art in heaven
Hallowed be thy name…

Peace
James

Sorry, I wrote in haste because I had errands to run. I simply meant that we do not go around Jesus by praying for intersession from a saint or Mary our Mother. They intercede for us to Jesus.

You are correct and I didn’t explain myself completely, I do pray to the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ the Son, through the Holy Spirit!

Thanks for catching my error.

 

[Lapey]

Exactly. I pray for people ALL the time BUT in the name of Jesus (our Lord and Saviour)

I do not pray for others to Mary or any other saints to intercede for us because…

Jesus is the only one who can go to the Father. (what is the point of praying to someone else to pray to Jesus for us when He said to pray to him) I do not need to pray to someone else when Jesus hears me. Doesn’t that defeat the purpose?

Also, dead saints cannot hear prayers. The Bible SPECIFICALLY says that death means sleep. Nor does it mention that Mary was taken directly to Heaven.

You always stop reading when the answer you seek is found. Look further you will find Paul asking a question, “aren’t they who died in Christ alive in Christ?”

If those who died in Christ are alive in Christ, can’t they pray for me to Christ???

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Once again, dead saints can not hear prayers? Would you like to know what the Bible says about people who have died?

Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You therefore do greatly err.

Heb 12:1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us

**Rev 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. **

Truth Seeker123,

I pause as I typed your name because, you call yourself a ‘truth seeker’, yet you started another thread discussing ‘images’. When we gave explanations, with supporting scriptures, you moved on and started another thread ‘picking’ at another Catholic belief, that apparently you have objections with.

It is a courtesy to stay with a discussion, especially when you start those discussions, and respond to all points, answers and questions put forth.

 

[Lapey]

Once again, dead saints can not hear prayers? Would you like to know what the Bible says about people who have died?

Once again you don’t read the entire Word. You will be backed into a corner on this thread as well as in the past and leave to start another.

You and other “Christians”, there is a reason it is in quotes, like you claim to have the greatest knowledge of Scripture but you use it improperly. You have no idea what is the fulness of grace because you limit what God can do. Do you really not believe that God can make it possible for saints to hear my pleadings and pray for me to the Son?

Please explain your limitations on the Word made Flesh.

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You therefore do greatly err.

Heb 12:1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us

**Rev 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. **

Truth Seeker123,

I pause as I typed your name because, you call yourself a ‘truth seeker’, yet you started another thread discussing ‘images’. When we gave explanations, with supporting scriptures, you moved on and started another thread ‘picking’ at another Catholic belief, that apparently you have objections with.

It is a courtesy to stay with a discussion, especially when you start those discussions, and respond to all points, answers and questions put forth.

Do you care to explain that Revelation verse in full context? I know what it is talking about, but do you? That is a trend on the site I see. I give clear proof and to avoid being wrong, you give a scripture to justify your wrong…smh

Remember, you argue with the Word, not me.

 

[Lapey]

Are you asking them to go to God for you or to Jesus? If it goes through Jesus then its ok but if you ask them to go directly to God then they are acting as a mediator which they are not. If you want Mary or another Saint of pray for you I don’t care. I don’t pray to them.

Rev, why would you not care? Are we not part of the same body? Can the arm say to the leg I do not care about you? Can the eye say to the nose we do not care about you?

You hurt my heart when you do not care about our brothers and sisters. We are called to have a personal relationship with Christ, that does not at all mean we “don’t care” about the other members of the body. I hope you do care.

 

[twopekinguys]

Are you asking them to go to God for you or to Jesus? If it goes through Jesus then its ok but if you ask them to go directly to God then they are acting as a mediator which they are not. If you want Mary or another Saint of pray for you I don’t care. I don’t pray to them.

Actually, I cover all my bases, and pray to them all at once.

I begin all prayers, “In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

Once again you don’t read the entire Word. You will be backed into a corner on this thread as well as in the past and leave to start another.

You and other “Christians”, there is a reason it is in quotes, like you claim to have the greatest knowledge of Scripture but you use it improperly. You have no idea what is the fulness of grace because you limit what God can do. Do you really not believe that God can make it possible for saints to hear my pleadings and pray for me to the Son?

Please explain your limitations on the Word made Flesh.

I’m hear for now and that is what matters. If you can not provide scripture to justify your beliefs then what is the point?

I never claimed having great knowlegde, that is your assumption. If I said that, quote me.

I know that through God anything is possible, but God’s Law does not change. It is written. So if God says that the dead is sleep and can’t hear you, then that’s the end of that until otherwise spoken by Him. If you want to change the topic then send me a message or go to that thread. Also, I encourage you to READ your Bible and pray that you be led by the Holy Spirit and not just read my post to criticize them.

I want your feedback but only if you are posting scripture, because opinions and things that aren’t in the Bible has no ground with me.

 

[Lapey]

Do you care to explain that Revelation verse in full context? I know what it is talking about, but do you? That is a trend on the site I see. I give clear proof and to avoid being wrong, you give a scripture to justify your wrong…smh

Remember, you argue with the Word, not me.

Sorry brother, but you twist the Word and use it as weapons. I explained these verses of Rev. some time back and when you couldn’t refute the truth you ran and started a new thread then you disapeared untill today.

Beware of wolves in sheep’s clothing! I am aware of your twisted truths!

Now finish this discussion before you run.

Get back to the topic the YOU brought up.

What is your understanding of Catholic teaching on this matter? Do I, a Catholic, pray to Mary to ask her to pray to God the Father or Jesus the Son? Do you see a difference?

 

[rev_kevin]

Rev, why would you not care? Are we not part of the same body? Can the arm say to the leg I do not care about you? Can the eye say to the nose we do not care about you?

You hurt my heart when you do not care about our brothers and sisters. We are called to have a personal relationship with Christ, that does not at all mean we “don’t care” about the other members of the body. I hope you do care.

What I meant by " I don’t care" is that it don’t matter to me if you do or don’t pray to Saints or Mary. I did not say I don’t care about others. I think you read too much into it. You took it way out of context.

 

[rev_kevin]

Actually, I cover all my bases, and pray to them all at once.

I begin all prayers, “In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”

Good, but I don’t think its about covering bases. Its about who is the mediator.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Do you care to explain that Revelation verse in full context? I know what it is talking about, but do you? That is a trend on the site I see. I give clear proof and to avoid being wrong, you give a scripture to justify your wrong…smh

Remember, you argue with the Word, not me.

Why skip the two previous verses? If we take all three verses in context, we see that those Christians who have passed on are eternally alive.

The trend I am seeing with your posts is, you start a discussion and when we provide how it’s from an interpretation of scriptures, you leave and start another thread.

As for your last sentence, it would depend on interpretation. If our interpretation is correct, who is arguing with the Word?

Now that you bring up arguing with the Word, I will take the liberty to ask you a question, that I’ve asked you several times now without a response, by what authority do you receive your interpretation? Nehemiah 8 shows us that, even in Old Testament times, an authority had to explain scriptures to the people. Who provides you with your interpretation?

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

Sorry brother, but you twist the Word and use it as weapons. I explained these verses of Rev. some time back and when you couldn’t refute the truth you ran and started a new thread then you disapeared untill today.

Beware of wolves in sheep’s clothing! I am aware of your twisted truths!

Now finish this discussion before you run.

Get back to the topic the YOU brought up.

What is your understanding of Catholic teaching on this matter? Do I, a Catholic, pray to Mary to ask her to pray to God the Father or Jesus the Son? Do you see a difference?

So if I twist the Word, isn’t it your duty as a child of God to correct me?

That is exactly what I am talking about. It is not fair that I use scripture to support my claim and I give explanations when needed. (i don’t respond to ignorance, it bothers me)

You give scripture to “prove” me wrong, yet you wont explain it. Revelation is a great book in the Bible, you used it against me, explain it.

Let’s keep this conversation scripture based and keep personal things out because that’s not what it is about, correct?

Also, I didn’t change the topic, your catholic brothers and sisters did.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Good, but I don’t think its about covering bases. Its about who is the mediator.

Catholics will tell you, there is only ONE mediator and that is Christ.

Asking Mary, or anyone else in heaven to pray for you is no different than asking a person in your Church to pray for you…

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

Why skip the two previous verses? If we take all three verses in context, we see that those Christians who have passed on are eternally alive.

The trend I am seeing with your posts is, you start a discussion and when we provide how it’s from an interpretation of scriptures, you leave and start another thread.

As for your last sentence, it would depend on interpretation. If our interpretation is correct, who is arguing with the Word?

Now that you bring up arguing with the Word, I will take the liberty to ask you a question, that I’ve asked you several times now without a response, by what authority do you receive your interpretation? Nehemiah 8 shows us that, even in Old Testament times, an authority had to explain scriptures to the people. Who provides you with your interpretation?

Again, what does that profit you. You only want me to answer that so you can attack me.

When I read I pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Do you think that a person has to provide you with an interpretation for you to believe to be true. I put my trust in God not a man.