Only Christ.....

[Truth_Seeker123]

Are you saying the scriptures contradict each other?

**Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You therefore do greatly err. **

To my understanding. God is talking about the resurrection of they that live in Christ. If you go to the previous verse you will see what I am saying. Mark 26 is saying He is the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob (those who lived in Christ)

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

No, I never said that and you know it. That is what the Bible say, and I will not argue about that. Take that one to the ones who are in authority over you.

What is the contradictory?

The Bible states both, as shown from your example and as shown from my example. At a glance, they seemingly contradict each other. It was an example and I apologize if my example and post wording were blunt.

Weren’t those who died in the Old Testament in the land of the dead? Didn’t Christ free them when He died and beat death? That’s why we would have two different statements between the Old and New Testament.

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

You said that in Ezra, those who have died know nothing. The Sadducees were speaking to Jesus about those who had died, and asking which of 7 men would be the husband of a woman they all had married. And Jesus tells the Sadducees, and you, that those people–those who had died–were no longer dead because God is God of the living.

IOW . . .since they are no longer ‘dead’ , then passages which speak of the dead as ‘not knowing’. . no longer refer to those in heaven.

And your contention then that they do not ‘hear’. . .is wrong.

I never said anything about Ezra, you are greatly mistaken.

 

[JRKH]

So if I twist the Word, isn’t it your duty as a child of God to correct me?

That is exactly what I am talking about. It is not fair that I use scripture to support my claim and I give explanations when needed. (i don’t respond to ignorance, it bothers me)

You give scripture to “prove” me wrong, yet you wont explain it. Revelation is a great book in the Bible, you used it against me, explain it.

Let’s keep this conversation scripture based and keep personal things out because that’s not what it is about, correct?

Also, I didn’t change the topic, your catholic brothers and sisters did.

Yes it is our duty to correct you. The question is whether you will accept correction.
Let us see what Christ told us to do in such a circumstance where there is disagreement.

Matthew 18: 15-18
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 **"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church (Singular); and if he refuses to listen even to the church let him be as a tax collector. **18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
(NOTE: I’m sure you’ll agree that the spreading of a “false Gospel” is a sin.)

Now, you have posted something that others have disagreed with. They have tried to explain where you are incorrect. Thus, parts one and two of the above passage have been fulfilled. Since you have not accepted the correction the next logical step is not to “tell ti to Scripture” but to "tell it to The Church.
And so I will ask, as I always do in these discussions, how shall we proceed so that we may all receive an authoritative answer? and are you willing to submit your personal will to Christ’s will expressed in His Church should the Church’s answer be contrary to yours?

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

To my thinking, after quickly reading through the exchanges here, nothing will be accomplished in this thread.
When we do not provide scripture, we are asked to do so, when we do provide scripture, we are accused of “Finding something to attack with”.

The NT letters, repeatedly talk about how those who die in Christ do not, in fact die, but rather live on Gloriously in Him. (Sorry but I am not a chapter and verse man.)

Jesus Himself tells us this when he says “Those who believe in me, even though they die, Yet shall they live, and those who believe in me shall never die”.
So - if we Live in Christ, then we do not need sleep ( a human thing). If we live in Christ then we are present and perfected in Him in Heaven, worshiping God and fully capable of praying To God, Through Christ, for those we love here on earth.

Peace
James

 

[wardrandolph]

Once again, dead saints can not hear prayers? Would you like to know what the Bible says about people who have died?

There is no such person as a Dead Saints.Saints that have passed from this life are ALIVE.To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.Sound familar?

 

[benidict]

You know, at first I thought the whole argument against intercessory prayer was really baseless. I could not understand why if you ended up in heaven you would suddenly be cut off from caring about or being connected to your loved ones. But then it hit me yesterday. If you ended up in heaven, and KNEW you had loved ones that would NEVER be there, it would make sense for God to take away or wipe out all memory of them entirely. In fact, he may as well wipe out all of your memory of all loved ones, saved or not, because you would or could be distracted thinking about them and not paying attention to your worshipping for eternity.

So, yeah. You not only can’t hear their prayers, you don’t remember them at all, don’t have any other concerns but your worship of God who wants to take parts of what makes you, You out of you in order to even be there.

I was not understanding the protestant point on this before, but now it seems to be the only way to reconcile all this. On top of the fact, how do you reconcile being in heaven when KNOWING a family member is in eternal hell? That can’t feel like heaven unless your brain is numbed by God to not remember that person at all.

hi strawberry jam. so what do we do with the great cloud of witnesses in hebrews, or the multitude in heaven watching what is going on in the earth in revelation? the people in revelation may be figurative in some way, but it would appear that the great cloud of witnesses is not. peace be to you.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Also, dead saints cannot hear prayers.

“Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!” (Mark 12:26-27)

 

[Randy_Carson]

Are you asking them to go to God for you or to Jesus? If it goes through Jesus then its ok but if you ask them to go directly to God then they are acting as a mediator which they are not.

Since God is a Trinity, if someone prays to God, Jesus is included in the distribution list.

And since Jesus taught us the “Lord’s Prayer” which begins, “Our Fathers, which art in heaven”, we know that Jesus did not insist that all of our prayers be addressed to Him alone.

If you want Mary or another Saint of pray for you I don’t care. I don’t pray to them.

Your loss, of course.

 

[rev_kevin]

Since God is a Trinity, if someone prays to God, Jesus is included in the distribution list.

And since Jesus taught us the “Lord’s Prayer” which begins, “Our Fathers, which art in heaven”, we know that Jesus did not insist that all of our prayers be addressed to Him alone.

Your loss, of course.

Then why does it say that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man? Is the Bible wrong on this?
The Our Father is a prayer which is not what this is about. Its about Jesus being the only mediator between God and man.

I noticed something about you, you like to go off subject alot.

 

[Ignatius]

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Timothy clearly says that Jesus is the only one who intercedes for us.

Amen, brother!
By the way, would you say a prayer for the poor soles in Haiti, they could use prayers. And would you please ask your congregation to pray for them. As a matter of face, perhaps we could ask all Christians to pray for them. Do you think that would be ok?

 

[JRKH]

Then why does it say that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man? Is the Bible wrong on this?
The Our Father is a prayer which is not what this is about. Its about Jesus being the only mediator between God and man.

I noticed something about you, you like to go off subject alot.

Christ has been given authority in heaven and on earth. That is what the Bible also says. Again, Jesus says, “the Father is in me and I in the Father”.
Why this contention about praying to the father or to Jesus - They are one and the same God who is Love.
The same with the saints who are in heaven, united in Love before God adoring in the beatific vision. The unitve factor friends is Love. Living Love Caring Love and Redemptive Love.
Put on Christ, that His Love and yours is the same, then all this contention will be shown for what it is. Dust in the Wind.

Peace
James

 

[rev_kevin]

Christ has been given authority in heaven and on earth. That is what the Bible also says. Again, Jesus says, “the Father is in me and I in the Father”.
Why this contention about praying to the father or to Jesus - They are one and the same God who is Love.
The same with the saints who are in heaven, united in Love before God adoring in the beatific vision. The unitve factor friends is Love. Living Love Caring Love and Redemptive Love.
Put on Christ, that His Love and yours is the same, then all this contention will be shown for what it is. Dust in the Wind.

Peace
James

Thanks for the lession I knew all that but the question was not about Christ having authority in heaven and on earth, him being in the Father and nothing to do with loving one another and so on. It was a question that was asked by the OP. Now if you would please answer the question.

 

[StrawberryJam]

hi strawberry jam. so what do we do with the great cloud of witnesses in hebrews, or the multitude in heaven watching what is going on in the earth in revelation? the people in revelation may be figurative in some way, but it would appear that the great cloud of witnesses is not. peace be to you.

I had not thought of that benidict. I am willing and open to seeing all the factors.

Thank you, and peace

SJ

 

[StrawberryJam]

Not numbed, but perfected.

How do I reconcile being in heaven while I know a loved one isn’t there?

According to Revelation 21, where St. John speaks of heaven,

** “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. AND GOD SHALL WIPE AWAY ALL TEARS FROM THEIR EYES; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain:** FOR THE FORMER THINGS ARE PASSED AWAY. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”

While it breaks my heart on earth to know loved ones are living Godless lives and choosing in every way to live not according to the law of God but according to the desires of their flesh, my sadness on earth is what moves me to pray for them and to actively try to evangelize them. I can have a blessed assurance that I won’t feel pain or despair in heaven, because I will be in the very Presence of God.

And how will you leave your senses and stop caring for them unless someone tampers with who you are?

 

[JRKH]

Thanks for the lession I knew all that but the question was not about Christ having authority in heaven and on earth, him being in the Father and nothing to do with loving one another and so on. It was a question that was asked by the OP. Now if you would please answer the question.

I thought I did.

The OP asked “why pray to others”. The response was, as it is every time this comes up, that we ask saints to pray for us just as we ask our parish to pray for us.
The OP was not satisified with this answer and now, 70 some posts later, people are still arguing about this or that bible verse.

Christ told us to take our disputes to the church and abide by the decision of the Church. We should so this in humility and in Love.

Whether we Pray directly to God, our father, or through Christ our mediator and Lord, makes no difference since Jesus and the Father are one. To pray to One is to pray to the other. As for asking the intercession of a saint, The Church does not requires it. Therefore it is a matter purely of personal devotion.

Peace
James

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And how will you leave your senses and stop caring for them unless someone tampers with who you are?

Because. . .nobody tampers with who you are. . .you simply become ‘all’ you are.

It’s not that people ‘stop caring’ or ‘leave their senses’. It is that, on becoming aware of the totality of God, in knowing the fullness of truth (and not just the little bits we know as fallible human beings) we (while still loving the persons) will be able to understand, accept and indeed embrace God’s justice and mercy. Even if it means eternal separation.

This is something our fallible, finite human minds can’t get around, because it involves being ‘greater’ than we are now. . .a greatness we can’t imagine, and because we consider our own human, imperfect love to be pretty much ‘perfect’, we think that because right now, on earth (since we aren’t in heaven and haven’t experienced it, we only know ‘earth’), if we saw loved ones in hell, we would be extremely sad, that naturally, we’d be sad in heaven too. But we won’t be. Heaven will not be held hostage to the whims of Hell.

God is much ‘more’ than we are. Somehow, His justice and mercy are so big and so perfect that, on understanding, we **ourselves will be at peace even with our loved ones in hell. **

C.S.Lewis wrote eloquently in the Great Divorce ( I recommend it) about the tyranny of those who wanted, (because they themselves had freely chosen to be unhappy), all in heaven to be unhappy as well, and he explained that this would mean that Heaven (and God) would be at the mercy of every malcontent who would insist that his family would have to be miserable in heaven just because he himself had freely chosen to be miserable in hell. That is tyranny, and it is unjust and wrong. . .

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And the Holy Spirit, too! (Everybody kept talking about Jesus and the Father, and I have to put in a plug for the Holy Spirit. As another poster noted, He’s in the distribution list too.)

 

[Rence]

Ecc. 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Want more on the sleep of death?

**Ecc 9:5 means that after death, the dead do not know things of the world, unless it’s revealed to them. They also are unable to acquire anything more to help them in the afterlife, because we do that while we are alive, in how we choose to live. They forget about the worries of their mortal life, because they’re with God now. **

Here’s more about heaven and paradise:

Matthew 5:19
He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:20
For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 6:20
But lay up to yourselves treasures in heaven: where neither the rust nor moth doth consume, and where thieves do not break through, nor steal.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 8:11
And I say to you that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven:

Matthew 18:3
And said: Amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 18:4
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, he is the greater in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.

Mark 12:25
For when they shall rise again from the dead, they shall neither marry, nor be married, but are as the angels in heaven.

Luke 3:21
Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that Jesus also being baptized and praying, heaven was opened;

Luke 6:23
Be glad in that day and rejoice; for behold, your reward is great in heaven. For according to these things did their fathers to the prophets.

1 Peter 1:4
Unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that can not fade, reserved in heaven for you,

1 Peter 3:22
Who is on the right hand of God, swallowing down death, that we might be made heirs of life everlasting: being gone into heaven, the angels and powers and virtues being made subject to him.

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

 

[Ignatius]

TruthSeeker123:

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1 Timothy clearly says that Jesus is the only one who intercedes for us.

Amen, brother!
By the way, would you say a prayer for the poor folks in Haiti, they could really use intercessory prayer right now. And would you please ask your congregation to pray for them as well. While were at it, perhaps we could ask all Christians to pray for them. Do you think that would be ok?