only one correct religion with the truth?

[PRmerger]

If he is an atheist then he does not believe.

Yep. Pretty much.

I thought you just said before that anyone who leads a purely secular life does not have eternal life

Yes. That is what it means–secular is in direct contrast to the spiritual.

and now you say it is beyond your paygrade.

I never judge the status of someone’s interior life. And neither should you.

You can’t know how “purely” secular anyone’s life is, openmind, unless you have some special knowledge of their soul.

Surely you aren’t saying that you have access to this, since you have apparently some deep communication with your own soul.

Actually you are right I do think it is beyond your paygrade to say what is required for eternal life

That is your Hindu belief I presume? That leaves you with chaos and confusion, sadly.

 

[Servant19]

Pretty much what is required for eternal life is Christ in His fullness
not your dilute form, OR to desire that fullness sincerely, OR to have the
intercession of someone in Christ act on your
behalf whether or not you are aware of it.

As a Bahai I agree with this, and it’s the main reason I’m a Bahai



.

 

[PRmerger]

…Except that I have never heard or seen a rational explanation for the existence of this so called Evil One/ Beelzebub.

I think the most rational explanation is that Christ Himself taught it.

If God made everything in His image, then all evil amounts to a narrowing of His goodness in its manifestation, not sourced from “someone” who is Evil…

…

Sure. The Evil One is not the source of anything God created.

The source of evil is our own choices.

 

[Servant19]

I think the most rational explanation is that Christ Himself taught it.

I think, time, place and the capacity of Jesus’ audience to understand the Truth.
If I was to teach a child about evil, I would probably create an Evil Incarnate for them to understand. As the child grows up this can be further elaborated.

Think Father Christmas, etc etc. the capacity to understand is limited…

Sure. The Evil One is not the source of anything God created.

The source of evil is our own choices.

Very much true

“Our own choices” were not created by Beelzebub…

.

 

[PRmerger]

Very much true

“Our own choices” were not created by Beelzebub…

Excellent. This is very Catholic of you to say, Servant!

Were you thinking that there is some sort of Catholic teaching that says “our own choices are created by the Devil”?

 

[PRmerger]

I think, time, place and the capacity of Jesus’ audience to understand the Truth.

Indeed.

If I was to teach a child about evil, I would probably create an Evil Incarnate for them to understand. As the child grows up this can be further elaborated.

Think Father Christmas, etc etc. the capacity to understand is limited…

And what if Evil Incarnate actually did exist? How would Jesus teach about this without someone saying 2000 years later, “It’s just a way for Christ to teach his hapless children about making bad choices”.

 

[marywarfield]

As a Bahai I agree with this, and it’s the main reason I’m a Bahai



.

Well thank you. However I suspect strongly
your definition of Christ in His Fullness is
radically different than mine.

 

[Servant19]

Well thank you. However I suspect strongly
your definition of Christ in His Fullness is
radically different than mine.

I’m confident that “suspecting” something is not fulfilling your God-given capacities to search for Truth.

I too, similarly, suspect that Christianity’s definition of Christ in His Fullness is radically different to Christs Himself

But I will keep searching not suspecting

.

 

[drac16]

Muhammad, through the Qur’an, wrote that Jesus is the Spirit of God and the Word of God.

The Word of God is exactly what the Gospel of John calls Jesus.

The Qur’an does NOT simply say that Jesus did not die on the cross. Most Muslims interpret it that way, but the passage in the Qur’an says something quite different:

“That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise;-”

Elsewhere in the Qur’an it is written:

“And say not of those who are slain in the way of God: ‘They are dead.’ Nay, they are living”

And so some Muslims and all Baha’is interpret these writings to say that Jesus’ body was indeed put to death on the cross, but His spiritual Reality can never be killed and His eternal Light shall never put out. For Christ Jesus is not dead, He is living, and God raised Him up unto Himself as a light unto all the world.

The Baha’is might do that, but muslims don’t. There are the Ahmadiyyas, who believe that Jesus [peace be upon him] was crucified and fell unconscious-- and regained consciousness a few days later. This is known as the swoon theory. Even though, as far as I’m aware, there is zippidy-doo-da evidence of someone in the first century having been crucified and going on to make a full recovery, the fact is, Ahmadiyyas are not muslims. They believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a prophet, which means that they deny the clear teaching of the Qur’an that says that Muhammad is the final prophet (not to mention the countless ahadith where Muhammad himself affirms this).

Did you miss the part where it says “they killed him not”? how could it be clearer? in the original arabic it’s even more unmistakeable. Did the sahaba ever question what this verse meant in regards to the supposed death? I’m unaware of it, but if you know of a hadith, please tell what collection it’s in, what volume it’s in and the hadith number. Believe you me, if they did question it, and I don’t think they ever did, Muhammad [peace be upon him] would’ve corrected them.

As for that other verse you quoted, surah 2:154, the context is about being patient in times where jihad is carried out. The whole context is given in verses 152-157. But even when we look at verse 154 itself, it could not possibly refer to Jesus [peace be upon him]. What does ‘fighting in the cause of Allah’ mean? jihad-- and this is shown in countless scriptures. If jihad is ‘fighting in the cause of Allah’ and you happen to die whilst doing so, it would therefore follow that dying in the cause of Allah, in this context, is a reference to being martyred (while taking place in jihad).

Jesus Christ [peace be upon him] never took part in jihad, thus proving that surah 2:154 has nothing to do with Jesus at all. Of course, I believe that he will take part in jihad once he returns, to slay the Dajjal, but during his earthly ministry, he didn’t take part in jihad.

 

[Servant19]

The Baha’is might do that, but muslims don’t. There are the Ahmadiyyas, who believe that Jesus [peace be upon him] was crucified and fell unconscious-- and regained consciousness a few days later. This is known as the swoon theory. Even though, as far as I’m aware, there is zippidy-doo-da evidence of someone in the first century having been crucified and going on to make a full recovery, the fact is, Ahmadiyyas are not muslims. They believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a prophet, which means that they deny the clear teaching of the Qur’an that says that Muhammad is the final prophet (not to mention the countless ahadith where Muhammad himself affirms this).

Did you miss the part where it says “they killed him not”? how could it be clearer? in the original arabic it’s even more unmistakeable. Did the sahaba ever question what this verse meant in regards to the supposed death? I’m unaware of it, but if you know of a hadith, please tell what collection it’s in, what volume it’s in and the hadith number. Believe you me, if they did question it, and I don’t think they ever did, Muhammad [peace be upon him] would’ve corrected them.

As for that other verse you quoted, surah 2:154, the context is about being patient in times where jihad is carried out. The whole context is given in verses 152-157. But even when we look at verse 154 itself, it could not possibly refer to Jesus [peace be upon him]. What does ‘fighting in the cause of Allah’ mean? jihad-- and this is shown in countless scriptures. If jihad is ‘fighting in the cause of Allah’ and you happen to die whilst doing so, it would therefore follow that dying in the cause of Allah, in this context, is a reference to being martyred (while taking place in jihad).

Jesus Christ [peace be upon him] never took part in jihad, thus proving that surah 2:154 has nothing to do with Jesus at all. Of course, I believe that he will take part in jihad once he returns, to slay the Dajjal, but during his earthly ministry, he didn’t take part in jihad.

Dear friend

The problem is that it also “literally” states in the Quran that the martyrs are not killed:

“Think not of those who are slain in Allah’s way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord”

Maybe in the Quran the references to death/crucifixion do not relate to physical death of the body, but rather that the TRUE REALITY of the individual lives on eternally.

As the celebrated Islamic mystic, Jami, stated:

“The unique Substance, viewed as absolute and void of all phenomena, all limitations and all multiplicity, is the Real (al-Haqq). On the other hand, viewed in His aspect of multiplicity and
plurality, under which He displays Himself when clothed with phenomena, He is the whole created universe. Therefore the universe is the outward visible expression of the Real, and the Real is the inner unseen reality of the universe. The universe before it was evolved to outward view was identical with the Real; and the Real after this evolution is identical with the universe.”

Physical death/crucifixion is not REAL death at all…whether its the martyrs or Jesus Christ.

 

[drac16]

Dear friend

The problem is that it also “literally” states in the Quran that the martyrs are not killed:

“Think not of those who are slain in Allah’s way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord”

Maybe in the Quran the references to death/crucifixion do not relate to physical death of the body, but rather that the TRUE REALITY of the individual lives on eternally.

Speculating is not how meaningful exegesis is done. Texts are to be understood by the context of the verses before and after, the context of the point in history in which it was revealed, comparing it to any parallels in the Qur’an as a whole, etc. We’ll get nowhere if we say “Well, maybe it could mean this.” or “why can’t it mean this?”.

I say this because there’s no possible way that that the word ‘maut’ which is a transliteration of the arabic word for ‘death’, always refers to a spiritual death when it is used in the Qur’an. This is one of the differences between you and I; I believe that the Qur’an in and of itself is sufficient in clarity, whereas you try to insert esoteric meanings on texts that couldn’t be clearer.

As the celebrated Islamic mystic, Jami, stated:

“The unique Substance, viewed as absolute and void of all phenomena, all limitations and all multiplicity, is the Real (al-Haqq). On the other hand, viewed in His aspect of multiplicity and
plurality, under which He displays Himself when clothed with phenomena, He is the whole created universe. Therefore the universe is the outward visible expression of the Real, and the Real is the inner unseen reality of the universe. The universe before it was evolved to outward view was identical with the Real; and the Real after this evolution is identical with the universe.”

Physical death/crucifixion is not REAL death at all…whether its the martyrs or Jesus Christ.

It’s cool that you’ve quoted a piece from a sufi sheikh, but that quote seems to be endorsing pantheism (deviant Sufism). This is another issue altogether.

I agree that physical death is not permanent and that the martyrs throughout history are alive, but they’re not alive in the earthly sense. This is the same point that shias are always missing; yes, people in Jannah are alive, but not in the same sense that you and I are. They still had to go through physical death to get there.

 

[debbie_h]

As i have been LDS from the beginning of my life and just realizing the last several months that my faith is just yet another line of those 30k plus denominations, it is a wonder to me why there must be so many, to me these sects may preach of Christ and perhaps teach sound moral doctrine but in the end i have found that the Roman Catholic Church is the original church that Jesus himself founded. Its principles to me are sound and great in many ways. These other faiths sadly have not motivated me, but now the Catholic Church has. I realize we may all have differing opinions but the RCC is the church for my time as the most correct and to me, Christ centered faith.

All the best on your journey home

 

[daler]

Speculating is not how meaningful exegesis is done…

I say this because there’s no possible way that that the word ‘maut’ which is a transliteration of the arabic word for ‘death’, always refers to a spiritual death when it is used in the Qur’an…

I agree that physical death is not permanent and that the martyrs throughout history are alive, but they’re not alive in the earthly sense. This is the same point that shias are always missing; yes, people in Jannah are alive, but not in the same sense that you and I are. They still had to go through physical death to get there.

drac,
. From another cultural context altogether, a great many Native Americans believe that the death of the body is like the death of the garment one is wearing. There is a sure and solid realization that the ancestors are alive and with them, not in some distant far off sense, or imaginary and remote, but present, even as we in this world are present to each when we are in physical proximity.

. The reassurance given in the Holy Quran to the survivors of those killed as martyrs is the same identical description, that they are not dead. They have not been killed, but only their bodies have been slain.

. To extend this understanding to the crucifixion of Christ is not a leap, but very logical, at least to me. So when the Prophet says: “Think not that they have killed Him, nor did they crucify Him…” the “Him” that He is talking about is not the mortal physical body we naturally associate with Him. The same is true with Muhammad (praise be to Him) passed from this physical world. If we refer to His body as dead, we are correct. If we refer to the reality of His soul, He did not die, but lives.

. I have read several translations of the Quran pertaining to the crucifixion of Jesus, and their are several very different ideas arising from the imaginations of the translators as to what took place, including the substitution theory, which entirely misses the point. For if we delve into it a little more, we can indeed decipher the meaning of “but it appeared to them” that they had done so.

. Ok, What does this mean? Well, when you kill someone’s body, it appears to you that you have killed him. Right? But it is only their body, their mortal shirt that you have torn from them. If you lose an arm, where are you? You’re still here, right? If you lose a leg, you are still here, but absent your leg. If you lose your entire body through death, where are you? Still here, though it appears that “you” have died, when you have not, for those who understand and believe.

.

 

[opusAquinas]

For the non-Christians contributing to this thread: I assume you have read the New Testament and reject Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. As I understand it your destiny is one of eternal punishment: vessels of God’s judgement.

I feel sorry for you because I am grateful to God. But you have chosen your path.

I feel grateful that God has shown me such mercy because I could have resisted grace as you non-Christians have and presumably will until the very end of your lives. I know that works won’t save you but Faith alone will. And of course from Faith is Love and Love springs Hope and Works. I should also more sincerely realize that the word Eucharist means thanksgiving.

 

[tonyfish58]

For the non-Christians contributing to this thread: I assume you have read the New Testament and reject Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. As I understand it your destiny is one of eternal punishment: vessels of God’s judgement.

I feel sorry for you because I am grateful to God. But you have chosen your path.

I feel grateful that God has shown me such mercy because I could have resisted grace as you non-Christians have and presumably will until the very end of your lives. I know that works won’t save you but Faith alone will. And of course from Faith is Love and Love springs Hope and Works. I should also more sincerely realize that the word Eucharist means thanksgiving.

Your assumptions are not correct

God bless your journey in Faith and the Love of God

Regards Tony

 

[drac16]

drac,
. From another cultural context altogether, a great many Native Americans believe that the death of the body is like the death of the garment one is wearing. There is a sure and solid realization that the ancestors are alive and with them, not in some distant far off sense, or imaginary and remote, but present, even as we in this world are present to each when we are in physical proximity.

. The reassurance given in the Holy Quran to the survivors of those killed as martyrs is the same identical description, that they are not dead. They have not been killed, but only their bodies have been slain.

That’s a great example of eisegesis. I would think that if we were doing a study on what the Qur’an has to say about death, the responsible thing would be to go to what the Qur’an actually has to say. From what I understand, Native American belief systems were full of shirk, not the least of which was Shamanism. Yes, Natives did believe that their ancestors were present in some sort of way, that’s why they venerated the dead. To parallel that to anything the Qur’an has to say is laughable.

.

To extend this understanding to the crucifixion of Christ is not a leap, but very logical, at least to me. So when the Prophet says: “Think not that they have killed Him, nor did they crucify Him…” the “Him” that He is talking about is not the mortal physical body we naturally associate with Him. The same is true with Muhammad (praise be to Him) passed from this physical world. If we refer to His body as dead, we are correct. If we refer to the reality of His soul, He did not die, but lives…

No, when it says ‘him’, it means ‘him’ (Jesus). How you could take surah 4:157 and parallel that to tribal belief systems that didn’t exist until centuries later, belief systems wherein all sorts of spirit worship and spirit channeling was practiced, which is what Shamanism is…well, that’s anyone’s guess.

What’s more, surah 3:55 echoes the statement-- that Jesus never died: “Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute”.

I have read several translations of the Quran pertaining to the crucifixion of Jesus, and their are several very different ideas arising from the imaginations of the translators as to what took place, including the substitution theory, which entirely misses the point. For if we delve into it a little more, we can indeed decipher the meaning of “but it appeared to them” that they had done so.

. Ok, What does this mean? Well, when you kill someone’s body, it appears to you that you have killed him. Right? But it is only their body, their mortal shirt that you have torn from them. If you lose an arm, where are you? You’re still here, right? If you lose a leg, you are still here, but absent your leg. If you lose your entire body through death, where are you? Still here, though it appears that “you” have died, when you have not, for those who understand and believe.

Once again, these concepts are totally foreign to the Qur’an and 1400 years of Islamic tradition. Moreover, you’re actually committing shirk, associating partners with Allah, by saying that dead people can see us or are with us in any way. Only Allah is Al-Basir, the All-Seeing. As the Qur’an says, in surah 10:61- “In whatever business thou mayest be, and whatever portion thou mayest be reciting from the Qur’an, and whatever deed ye (mankind) may be doing, We are witnesses thereof when ye are deeply engrossed therein. Nor is hidden from thy Lord (so much as) the weight of an atom on the earth or in heaven. And not the least and not the greatest of these things but are recorded in a clear record.”

Allah azza wa jal is unique–completely different than His Creation “…and there is none like unto Him” (surah 112:4).

By associating an attribute that only belongs to Allah to a human, that is shirk. So if you were being consistent, you would therefore have to say that all muslims, including the prophet himself [peace be upon him], associated partners with Allah and thereby committed the unforgiveable sin [surah 4:48]. I know that you won’t say that, though.

 

[PRmerger]

For the non-Christians contributing to this thread: I assume you have read the New Testament and reject Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. As I understand it your destiny is one of eternal punishment: vessels of God’s judgement.

Your understanding is not that of the Catholic Church.

Rather, we believe as Catholics that all non-Christians may be saved, provided they have invincible ignorance of the gospel.

Reading the NT would not qualify as being enough to conclude: therefore you have rejected Christ.

If it were, all the Church would need to do to evangelize would be to drop New Testaments around the world and be done with our evangelization ministry.

 

[daler]

Your understanding is not that of the Catholic Church.

Rather, we believe as Catholics that all non-Christians may be saved, provided they have invincible ignorance of the gospel.

Reading the NT would not qualify as being enough to conclude: therefore you have rejected Christ.

If it were, all the Church would need to do to evangelize would be to drop New Testaments around the world and be done with our evangelization ministry.

Very good response, PR, and well reasoned.
Thank you
.

 

[daler]

That’s a great example of eisegesis. I would think that if we were doing a study on what the Qur’an has to say about death, the responsible thing would be to go to what the Qur’an actually has to say. From what I understand, Native American belief systems were full of shirk, not the least of which was Shamanism. Yes, Natives did believe that their ancestors were present in some sort of way, that’s why they venerated the dead. To parallel that to anything the Qur’an has to say is laughable.

.

No, when it says ‘him’, it means ‘him’ (Jesus). How you could take surah 4:157 and parallel that to tribal belief systems that didn’t exist until centuries later, belief systems wherein all sorts of spirit worship and spirit channeling was practiced, which is what Shamanism is…well, that’s anyone’s guess.

What’s more, surah 3:55 echoes the statement-- that Jesus never died: “Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute”.

Once again, these concepts are totally foreign to the Qur’an and 1400 years of Islamic tradition. Moreover, you’re actually committing shirk, associating partners with Allah, by saying that dead people can see us or are with us in any way. Only Allah is Al-Basir, the All-Seeing. As the Qur’an says, in surah 10:61- “In whatever business thou mayest be, and whatever portion thou mayest be reciting from the Qur’an, and whatever deed ye (mankind) may be doing, We are witnesses thereof when ye are deeply engrossed therein. Nor is hidden from thy Lord (so much as) the weight of an atom on the earth or in heaven. And not the least and not the greatest of these things but are recorded in a clear record.”

Allah azza wa jal is unique–completely different than His Creation “…and there is none like unto Him” (surah 112:4).

By associating an attribute that only belongs to Allah to a human, that is shirk. So if you were being consistent, you would therefore have to say that all muslims, including the prophet himself [peace be upon him], associated partners with Allah and thereby committed the unforgiveable sin [surah 4:48]. I know that you won’t say that, though.

drac,

. You are assigning assumptions to me which are incorrect.

. First, the purpose of reading is to understand. Reading without understanding is of no benefit to mankind. When communicating one’s understanding, that is called dialogue. That people have different understanding is normal.

. Second, the assumption that “all Native Americans” believe this or that is a gross generalization, for there exists a wide variety of beliefs among Native Americans.

. [Quran 10:47] And: “And We certainly sent into every nation (Ummah) a messenger…”
. This includes Native Americans, a great many of whom worship the One God, and are definitely not idol worshippers. Such a prejudice is pure racism on your part.

. I think the “Him” part went right over your head. Go back and read the post. Please think a little deeper on this. (I mean no insult).

. As you state that “Jesus never died”, where did He go? and how is He to return, according to the traditions you subscribe to, and did you inherit these traditions are come by them independently and objectively?

. When I read that verse of the Quran which says: “O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself”, my sense of it is that it not referring to His physical body, but rather His Soul, and that Allah also raised Muhammad (PBUH) to Himself, not physically, but His Soul also. I separate the physical “Him” from the eternal Him.

. I do not associate partners with God. The souls of our ancestors are not All-Seeing or Omnipotent. It seems that you are looking for an opportunity to accuse someone of being deficient according to your position, thus exalting yourself above others. Go beyond that, and enter into a dialogue with other God-fearing souls who have come from other traditions than yourself.

.

 

[opusAquinas]

Your understanding is not that of the Catholic Church.

Rather, we believe as Catholics that all non-Christians may be saved, provided they have invincible ignorance of the gospel.

Reading the NT would not qualify as being enough to conclude: therefore you have rejected Christ.

If it were, all the Church would need to do to evangelize would be to drop New Testaments around the world and be done with our evangelization ministry.

Of course we are to witness you silly goose. There’s a difference between your definition of “invincible ignorance” and St. Thomas Aquinas’.

Hmm… I wonder why aborted babies end up supposedly in limbo rather than heaven right away (or rather now no limbo but there is surely “hope” for their salvation) - why is there even slight doubt for their salvation… is it invincible ignorance? Now hmmm… now what is the difference between sufficient and efficient grace… I wonder how that works? Our Lord certainly gave St. Paul an efficient grace when He knocked St. Paul down when he was still Saul. God loved Jacob and hated Esau. I just don’t know.