only one correct religion with the truth?

[Tom_Baum]

As the Church proclaims, so I proclaim.

If a person is baptized in water using the Trinitarian formula, he is grafted into His Body, the Catholic Church.

Amen!

Thank the CC for telling you this.

There do seem to be Catholics on this site that disagree with you on that.

You wrote that when “a person is baptized in water using the Trinitarian formula, he is grafted into His Body, the Catholic Church”, so shouldn’t that person “grafted into His Body, the Catholic Church” be allowed to partake of the Eucharist?

Inviting a person who “is baptized in water using the Trinitarian formula”, tho not exactly the CC doing it, to Mass, is kinda like inviting someone over to dinner and telling them that they can “look at the meal” all that they want, but in no way, shape or form can they partake of the meal, do you disagree with this since, as you say, that person has been “grafted into His Body, the Catholic Church”?

Or do you think that only “parts” of the “Body” should be fed?

Seems kind of selfish doesn’t it, since it was Jesus Who said, “Feed My lambs, tend My sheep, feed My sheep”?

It doesn’t seem as if Jesus put a bunch of exceptions on who of His lambs and sheep should be fed, only that they be fed and if you noticed, Jesus never said that they were Peter’s or anyone else’s lambs and sheep but that they remained Jesus’s lambs and sheep?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Yes…and if salvation comes through the Jews
who lead them? THEIR Pope. Who was their Pope?
The King’s Vicar of the House of David, the only
holder of the key to the House of David, giving him
the authority and responsibility to: wait for it…
Open and shut. Isiaah 22: 21-25
And who succeeded that Vicar? Peter, as the Vicar
of Christ the King of the House of David.
So where does anyone anywhere get this
information on Incarnation or Trinity?
Obviously the Catholic Church. No where else as
Peter holds the keys and just as the House of
David, safeguards and disseminates the truth
throughout the world.
That is WHY we say salvation CAME through the
Jews and today comes through the Holy Mother
Church. This was the plan and action of Christ
from the beginning to the end.
You can’t escape the primacy of the Church. No
one can.

Nor the “fact” that it was a Jew Who died for ALL OF HUMANITY.

Nor the “fact” that it was thru the Chosen People that God became One of us as a Jew and that the Jews are still the Chosen People.

Nor the “fact” that it was thru a Jewess, a female Jew, that the Incarnation of God was accomplished.

Jesus was born a Jew, lived as a Jew and died a Jew.

I believe that this was why the Jews were not only Chosen by God but were also formed by God with the beginning of the forming happening when Abram was chosen by God and Abram accepted God’s choosing.

 

[PRmerger]

And “our salvation”, humanity’s, comes ONLY thru the Jews.

Is there something in Catholic teaching that makes you believe this, Tom? Where does the Church teach that salvation comes ONLY from the Jews? Please cite the document–with, of course, any emphasis on the word ONLY or ALONE.

Thanks.

And “our salvation”, humanity’s, comes ONLY thru God.

Sure. We only have one God, do we not?

 

[PRmerger]

There do seem to be Catholics on this site that disagree with you on that.

There are Catholics all over the world who offer lots of peculiar and odd beliefs.

One ought not mistake what “Catholics on this site” profess with what the Catholic Church teaches.

See for yourself what she teaches, Tom. Read and learn your faith!

From our Catechism:

Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.

You wrote that when “a person is baptized in water using the Trinitarian formula, he is grafted into His Body, the Catholic Church”, so shouldn’t that person “grafted into His Body, the Catholic Church” be allowed to partake of the Eucharist?

When he or she is perfectly joined to us, rather than imperfectly joined, then he/she may partake of the Eucharist.

From our Catechism:

The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.

 

[PRmerger]

nviting a person who “is baptized in water using the Trinitarian formula”, tho not exactly the CC doing it, to Mass, is kinda like inviting someone over to dinner and telling them that they can “look at the meal” all that they want, but in no way, shape or form can they partake of the meal, do you disagree with this since, as you say, that person has been “grafted into His Body, the Catholic Church”?

I always invite them to join us perfectly at the Table.

They are always welcome to join His Body perfectly.

If they want the Eucharist, why wouldn’t they do everything they could do so?

Or do you think that only “parts” of the “Body” should be fed?

Oh, everyone should be fed, Tom. The CC turns no one away.

You should know that.

It doesn’t seem as if Jesus put a bunch of exceptions on who of His lambs and sheep should be fed, only that they be fed and if you noticed, Jesus never said that they were Peter’s or anyone else’s lambs and sheep but that they remained Jesus’s lambs and sheep?

Really. So you would allow a member of the Black Mass celebration to come and partake of our Eucharist?

Or would you exclude and make an exception?

 

[meltzerboy]

Nor the “fact” that it was a Jew Who died for ALL OF HUMANITY.

Nor the “fact” that it was thru the Chosen People that God became One of us as a Jew and that the Jews are still the Chosen People.

Nor the “fact” that it was thru a Jewess, a female Jew, that the Incarnation of God was accomplished.

Jesus was born a Jew, lived as a Jew and died a Jew.

I believe that this was why the Jews were not only Chosen by God but were also formed by God with the beginning of the forming happening when Abram was chosen by God and Abram accepted God’s choosing.

There is a notion in Judaism that the Jews were NOT the first people chosen by G-d, and perhaps they were even the last. However, the fact they, unlike other peoples, accepted G-d made them the Chosen People. But be careful about that phrase: it does NOT mean G-d loves the Jews more than others; rather, it means the Jews bear a challenging, but sweet, responsibility to keep G-d’s commandments and thus serve as an example, without arrogance of course, for all of humanity to do G-d’s Will.

 

[marywarfield]

There do seem to be Catholics on this site that disagree with you on that.

You wrote that when “a person is baptized in water using the Trinitarian formula, he is grafted into His Body, the Catholic Church”, so shouldn’t that person “grafted into His Body, the Catholic Church” be allowed to partake of the Eucharist?

Inviting a person who “is baptized in water using the Trinitarian formula”, tho not exactly the CC doing it, to Mass, is kinda like inviting someone over to dinner and telling them that they can “look at the meal” all that they want, but in no way, shape or form can they partake of the meal, do you disagree with this since, as you say, that person has been “grafted into His Body, the Catholic Church”?

Or do you think that only “parts” of the “Body” should be fed?

Seems kind of selfish doesn’t it, since it was Jesus Who said, “Feed My lambs, tend My sheep, feed My sheep”?

It doesn’t seem as if Jesus put a bunch of exceptions on who of His lambs and sheep should be fed, only that they be fed and if you noticed, Jesus never said that they were Peter’s or anyone else’s lambs and sheep but that they remained Jesus’s lambs and sheep?

Here is a lovely quote by St. John Chrystostom in c 380AD posted
by Lectionaire on the Eastern Catholic forum:

“In those days, Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples and said…” As the fiery spirit to whom the flock was entrusted by Christ and as the leader in the band of the apostles, Peter always took the initiative in speaking: “My brothers, we must choose from among our number.” He left the decision to the whole body, at once augmenting the honor of those elected and avoiding any suspicion of partiality.

Did not Peter then have the right to make the choice himself? Certainly he had the right, but he did not want to give the appearance of showing special favor to anyone. “And they nominated two,” we read, “Joseph, who was called Barsabbas and surnamed Justus, and Matthias.” He himself did not nominate them; all present did. But it was he who brought the issue forward, pointing out that it was not his own idea but had been suggested to him by a scriptural prophecy.

And they all prayed together, saying: “You, Lord, know the hearts of men; make your choice known to us. You, not we.” Appropriately they said that he knew the hearts of men, because the choice was to be made by him, not by others.

They spoke with such confidence, because someone had to be appointed. They did not say “choose” but “make known to us” the chosen one; “the one you choose,” they said, fully aware that everything was being preordained by God."

Peter to whom the flock was entrusted by Christ.

 

[Servant19]

Well, then, cite your sources to back up your claim.

Give us a teaching regarding a Biblical verse in which the Catholic Church teaches, “It means A!” and the Orthodox say, “It does not mean A! It means B!”

Hi PR,

There are many sources for this. Here is one of them:

ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

.

 

[Melchizedek89]

Yes, there is only one correct religion. If a person believes that the Jews were God’s chosen people, and that they worshipped the True God, and that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, the fulfillment of the Jewish religion, then one of the Christian religions must be true.

Since the measure of Truth is the consistency of keeping the Faith passed on down to us… which Christian group is most consistent? Take the rule, lex orandi, lex credendi (the law of prayer is the law of belief) seriously here.

Whose practices of Faith are the same or very consistent throughout the past 2,000 years? It’s all important… the words of the prayers and how they’re prayed, icons, polyphonic chant, etc etc etc.

How about ecclesiology? Who is most consistent in their conception of “what is the church” with time? There are three different models here. The Protestants define their churches as groups of Christians, basing their beliefs and practices as best as they can on scripture, and typically led by a pastor. The whole church to Roman Catholics is a head, the Pope, with bishops under the authority of the Pope, with priests under the authority of bishops, and with lay people under the authority of priests. The “whole Church” to the Orthodox is simply a bishop, with priests under his authority, and with lay people under the priests.

Ecclesiology is important because it ensures (or doesn’t ensure) that people can (or can’t) be corrected when they screw up and deviate from the True Faith.

How about “getting to the Faith”. Who is most consistent here? Is it best to go about it through the mind, by Scholastic means, using cataphatic theology while having an increasingly “personalized/individualized” quest for Faith? This is what’s been done on the Western side of Christendom for the past 1,000 years. Or, do you take the Eastern approach of balancing cataphatic with apophatic theology, with a communal approach to Faith? Is it better to go to a Western theological academy, or to hesychastic Mt. Athos to encounter God more fully?

So, check yourselves. Are you in the religion that’s believing what’s always been believed, teaching what’s always been taught, and practicing what’s always been practiced?

 

[Servant19]

Catholicism has no objection to re-structuring any man-made paradigm and implementing any new systems which offer progress and an ability to flourish.

Were you operating under some misapprehension that Catholicism objects to this?

If so, could you please cite the Catholic document that discourages us as individuals and a community from searching for advancement?

Yes here:

"Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment"
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a1.htm

When a Revelation is given which is purely intended to bring about the unification of the human race with God, it can be said to fulfill the Revelation of Jesus Christ which was intended to bring about the unification of the human “being” with God. The Catholic Church without hesitation or investigation “cannot accept” such Revelations. There is no test, no analysis, just a blanket “cannot accept”…

It’s the proverbial Catholic both/and at work here, Servant.

There is no need to create a dichotomy where none exists.

Of course

As long as the “this” that you are referring to is grounded in Truth, why would we object to it?

The Truths that you are judging are beyond our reasonable human capabilities to discern. So lets focus on what is empirically available for human discernment, maybe?

We believe Him when He told us that all public revelation ceased with the death of the last Apostle.

Why would we doubt Him who is the source of All Truth?

That would be whacky to say, “I know that God said it, but I just want to see if He’s wrong about it. Maybe He does indeed have a plan to offer some new revelation that contradicts His old revelation.”

No , public revelation has ended until the Return of Jesus Christ
Public Revelation has not ended eternally.

Are you saying that when Jesus returns He will have nothing to say? Nothing to reveal?

Indeed.

We are educating and nourishing our young folks with the Truth of the gospel in marvelous and magnificent ways.

Beautiful, so how does the Catholic Church teach about institutional development?

I don’t speak to the US community as a whole and its institutions.

We are talking here about religion in general and Catholicism in particular.

The dichotomy you are creating is a segregation between church and state. In reality if this is truly God’s Kingdom, and is to be as such as prophecied in religious history and Sacred Texts, then it should ALL be under Divine Law…the seeds of which were sown by the Revelation of Muhammad and which have found maturity in the Revelation of Baha’u’llah

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

…Is it best to go about it through the mind, by Scholastic means, using cataphatic theology while having an increasingly “personalized/individualized” quest for Faith? This is what’s been done on the Western side of Christendom for the past 1,000 years. Or, do you take the Eastern approach of balancing cataphatic with apophatic theology, with a communal approach to Faith?..

Scholastic means have origins in the East as well. Many of the heresies originated in the Eastern Christian Church. There’s also a strong communal approach to faith in the Western Church.

 

[Servant19]

Where the Bahai principles are consonant with the gospel, I would give a to their implementation.

Where they have diverged from the One Truth, then I say, “Not so much.” :nope:

Can you please elaborate as to which of the social teachings of the Baha’i Faith are not consonant with the Truth?

If the Bahais here (save for one) are any example of how their faith is lived, I have no optimism regarding their ability to make the world a better place. They haven’t been able to make their light shine here…so why would I believe they would be able to make their light shine in the real world?

While I believe (and I speak for my own self here) Baha’is have many human frailties, might I ask what you are specifically referring to in regards to “how our faith is lived” please?

Thankyou for your deliberations

.

 

[Servant19]

For Heavens sakes Servant… Who is condemning you your
wife and children to NO salvation? Where are you getting
this stuff? Certainly not the Catholics unless they are a
temporarily revved up convert or an idiot?

I repeat- there is NO salvation for anyone anywhere
without the intercession of the Holy Mother Church.
NO condemnation for anyone without the participation
of the Holy Mother Church.

Why? Because the power to bind and loose belongs to
Peter thus the Church.

Do you have to be Catholic? Well it’s a very good idea
because then you would be helpful to Christ in spreading
that very very good news, but the short answer is no.

So why dumb us down to an us vs them mentality
which is what you are doing here.

The Holy Mother has no us versus them mentality.
We don’t need to as we hold all the cards

The aim of the Holy Mother is to bring this good news
and it is good news to non believers and add to the
Body of her Son Jesus Christ who is the cause of this
good news.

I think it’s wonderful the Ayatollah has finally come
to the conclusion the Church did a long time ago-
Holy wars are not fought with guns.

I’m sorry Servant you can’t make a case for the Church
to give you what you already received from her.

Dear sister Mary

Please, I sense I am frustrating you, and I wish not to do that. There are points I wish to discuss objectively with you from your post above, but I cannot if it brings you angst

With loving regards and blessings of joy

God bless you

.

 

[Servant19]

With regard to your last statement, I think many religions can claim they are the salvation of the global community and its institutions, and prove it too, including Catholicism as well as Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and so on. Further, you yourself admit to having limited knowledge of the Catholic community so that, it seems to me, what you have seen may not be all there is to Catholicism.

Thankyou melzter

I acknowledge and appreciate your comments here, and I fully admit that there are religious institutions within all Abrahamic religions that claim they can herald an era of global salvation. One must however consider the foundations by which these institutions operate by. The Buddha never talked about the specifics of what institutions should be set up for global justice for all. Anything developed to herald global prosperity will therefore be man-made, not Buddha made.

Moses never talked about the need for a global currency, an auxiliary world language and how these should be installed and established. Anything developed to hearld global prosperity will be man made, not Moses made.

How closely society aligns itself to the WORDS of these Holy Prophets is what enables aligning with the Will of God. God guided according to the specific NEEDS of His loved ones at that specific time.

The same applies to Jesus, Muhammad, Krishna and Zoroaster. Up until Baha’u’llah’s Revelation, no revelation acknowledeged the full and unabashed equality of men and women, or abolished slavery even…

Today God has given full and authoritative, elaborate and complete guidance on the establishment of the unification of humanity. Why are we all resisting this so much?

The world is embroiled in ego-driven man-made solutions and it is our “personal” salvation at stake (in my humble opinion) when we refuse to implement the principles founded in the Divine Revelation offered. As with all of God’s Prophets, some accept and fulfill their duties and some decline and oppose…

Thankyou for reading dear friend

.

 

[Melchizedek89]

Scholastic means have origins in the East as well. Many of the heresies originated in the Eastern Christian Church. There’s also a strong communal approach to faith in the Western Church.

1. Yes and no. Philosophy (used greatly in the East during ecumenical councils) differs from Scholasticism… en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholasticism
2. Yes, heresies were sometimes rampant in the Greek world. This is because, with the fall of the Roman Empire and the sack of Rome, the Greek East was the “happening place” where all the thinking and theologizing was done. The Latin West was just a backwater of not much for hundreds of years, using poor translations of Greek works. The remedies for these heresies also came out from the Greek East! However, since the Roman Pope was considered the First Bishop (the “Chairman” of the ecumenical councils), his role was to state the consensus. Actually, the Pope didn’t even show up, but his representatives usually did. And when they stated or wrote anything, it was considered for days on end to make sure it wasn’t heretical…
3. No, there isn’t a communal approach to Faith, as we’d understand it in Orthodoxy. If a Bishop(s) says something stupid in Orthodoxy, the people and priests correct him, sometimes in very forceful ways. If a priest screws up, then the people and the bishop correct him. And, if the lay people go crazy, then the bishop and priests sort things out. Bishops are approved by the people and priests (not like the secretive Roman Catholic appointment process). Furthermore, there’s a greater emphasis on Faith as something lived, with daily prayer rules, fasting/feasting days, your church as an extension of your family, etc. In the West, both fasting/feasting and community have died out for most people.

 

[Servant19]

The Catholic Church and its members are involved with tens of thousands of charitable programs for doing everything from delivering health care to the needy, educating children, building homes, feeding the homeless, and a myriad other projects. These activities reflect the teachings of Christ which are the teachings of Baha’u’llah.

We need to recognize and honor this contribution!

Here are just a few examples:

crs.org/about/mission-statement/
apamhospital.com/
saludhondu.org/

Dear Matthew, I think I have on several occasions praised Catholicism to the highest levels for their charitable works and love for humanity. The points I am raising are not in relation to charitable works, it is in relation to the foundational structures of global society which are “lamentably defective” (reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-110.html)

Does Catholicism have the necessary guidance from Jesus Christ, my Lord, to restructure global society into a place where things run smoothly and effectively and provides supreme justice for all, especially the minorities?

If you think that it does have that guidance from Christ, then I would appreciate some pointers as to where I can read about it please

Allah’u’Abha!

.

 

[Googler]

“Modern times are dominated by Satan and will be more so in the future. The conflict with hell cannot be engaged by men, even the most clever. The Immaculata alone has from God the promise of victory over Satan.”
-Saint Maximlian Kolbe

 

[Melchizedek89]

Does Catholicism have the necessary guidance from Jesus Christ, my Lord, to restructure global society into a place where things run smoothly and effectively and provides supreme justice for all, especially the minorities?

If you think that it does have that guidance from Christ, then I would appreciate some pointers as to where I can read about it please

Allah’u’Abha!

.

“Global society” will go how it goes, and sooner or later you will be dead. For myself, “global society” is too big to deal with. The journey to God and the battle for holiness and goodness is in my own soul, not in politics, and without unity with Him who conquered sin and death, I can’t win.

 

[Servant19]

“Global society” will go how it goes, and sooner or later you will be dead.

Yes dear friend I agree with you (at least the “you will be dead part” anyway )

For myself, “global society” is too big to deal with.

As it is for me, but…

The journey to God and the battle for holiness and goodness is in my own soul,

…what does this mean to you? What is the goodness in your own soul and how do you acquire it?

If it involves works which reflect the fortitude of faith evidenced within your being, then why can’t these works be in contribution towards unification of the human race?

not in politics,

Politics is man-made. Not divine. The efficient running of the human race and its administration can be from God, no?

Why would God give us guidance to bring us individually towards His theophany, yet leave us collectively to rot?

and without unity with Him who conquered sin and death, I can’t win.

.

 

[Melchizedek89]

Yes dear friend I agree with you (at least the “you will be dead part” anyway )

As it is for me, but…

…what does this mean to you? What is the goodness in your own soul and how do you acquire it?

If it involves works which reflect the fortitude of faith evidenced within your being, then why can’t these works be in contribution towards unification of the human race?

Politics is man-made. Not divine. The efficient running of the human race and its administration can be from God, no?

Why would God give us guidance to bring us individually towards His theophany, yet leave us collectively to rot?



.

Excellent, excellent question. The road to acquiring the spirit of peace is like setting off on a journey, halfway around the world, through dense forests, fighting against wild animals, over high mountain ranges on trails barely big enough to walk along with deathly falls immediately at your side, crossing glaciers and arctic ice full of crevasses, and getting lost and turned around many times in swampy marshlands, before “arriving home” and entering a place of love, goodness, and peace.

You have to die. You must die to your own selfish desires, to your destructive passions, and to live virtuously putting everyone else ahead of yourself.

You’ll lose the world. Instead of riches, you will accept abject poverty, giving everything to others without having the favour returned. Instead of favour in the eyes of other people, you’ll be rejected and persecuted, even by the ones whom you love deeply. Instead of carnal desires, you’ll live by fasting and chastity. Instead of using power to achieve justice, you will be weak and only able to offer others forgiveness. Instead of comfort, life will be increasingly uncomfortable. And, just when you think you’re doing ok, the rocky path gets steeper and more dangerous, and you will be attacked by passions so severe that all you can do is ask God for His mercy and forgiveness… “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.”

If you’re adventurous enough to take up this task, then goodness and peace of soul will be eternally yours, and you’ll always have the Saints and God’s Church encouraging (or goading) you along the path, up to ever higher and wilder and more dangerous terrain.

To answer your next question, yes this IS the natural place and condition for unity of the human race! The challenge is there, put out by God Himself, but most of the world, by their own choice, isn’t up for it! They aren’t adventurous enough, they want life to be easy and comfortable, or they make up excuses to put everyday tasks ahead of their spiritual life, etc.

Due to Christ’s Resurrection, no one will be rotting in the end, but many people who choose the sickness of sin instead of the fullness of life will not spend eternity living the life they were made for, a life that is ever more spectacular than they could ever imagine!

For you, all I can say is to pursue Truth, Goodness and Beauty with all your heart… when you experience these, your spirit will recognize them immediately, and don’t let go of them, but look for where they are fullest.