only one correct religion with the truth?

[Matthew_Light]

Hi Sochi!

I found truth and reality in Advaita Vedanta. I hold to “Not Two-ness”, which I came to an awareness of in 2005. Baha’u’llah puts the realization of nonduality this way:

“This station is the dying from self and the living in God, the being poor in self and rich in the Desired One. Poverty as here referred to signifieth being poor in the things of the created world, rich in the things of God’s world. For when the true lover and devoted friend reacheth to the presence of the Beloved, the sparkling beauty of the Loved One and the fire of the lover’s heart will kindle a blaze and burn away all veils and wrappings. Yea, all he hath, from heart to skin, will be set aflame, so that nothing will remain save the Friend.”

However that highest truth, while very real, did not provide a framework for right living either individually or socially (and how could it, that is not what nonduality is about). Eventually I found myself embracing the truth of Baha’u’llah while never letting go of the reality of non-duality.

Of course, non-duality is not compatible with a fundamentalist reading of any religion, including the Baha’i Faith. And many Baha’is will fail to see the relevance of non-dual ground of reality.

The non-dual teachings of the Baha’i Faith are found in the Seven Valleys and other mystical works from Baha’u’llah.

 

[Matthew_Light]

Yes, that is a way some may use to look at it for the moment. However, “shoulds” and “oughts” are still concepts. When Unicity is perceived and felt, all else simply becomes the task of dispelling illusion.

The problem is, Unicity while true and real is too far above our day to day life .

It’s easy to become aware of the nondual truth of existence, and still be a dishonest person, an addict, and abusive in relationships. The history of a great many gurus demonstrates this.

This is where a framework which includes all the levels of reality, not just the ultimate level, becomes useful.

 

[Matthew_Light]

Sochi;12013332:

. I’m not fully sure what you mean by “unicity”. As an extension of unity? We need the unity while maintaining our diversity, both individually and in our cultural expression. Our varied heritages are important to us, yet we need to be on the same page in a world setting, where climate change affects us all, as one example.
"

As someone with an experience both as a Baha’i and as an explorer of the nondual nature of reality, perhaps I might give this a try.

Unicity is a nondual reference to the ultimate nature of reality. Baha’is would say that only God is ultimately real, that would be a pointer towards the same truth. I believe the “Divine Unity” referred to often in the writings is another such pointer.

I think the word “Unity” referred to in the writings is more mysterious than it might appear at first. At one time, I thought “unity” just meant “everybody be nice and pretend to agree on everything”. Now I see unity as a word meaning recognition that all reality is part of an intelligent, harmonious wholeness unfolding organically. At one level that does indeed mean human beings acting together in harmony to solve global issues.

I would put things this way - nonduality (from the Hindu and Buddhist traditions, primarily) focuses on the pathless path through the highest of the Seven Valleys, while Abrahamic faiths have traditionally focused on the first four (with most people not getting past the valley of knowledge).

Today we have what we need to traverse all seven, ignoring none of them and honoring them all.

 

[Sochi]

Sochi;12013332:

Sochi,
. I find that “mind” sometimes gets in the way, At least my in brain, there is this incessant word producing thought machine that sometimes I’d like to pull the plug on…

. I’m not fully sure what you mean by “unicity”. As an extension of unity? We need the unity while maintaining our diversity, both individually and in our cultural expression. Our varied heritages are important to us, yet we need to be on the same page in a world setting, where climate change affects us all, as one example.

. As to love and affection, these are the byproducts (I think?) of a healthy spirit. How we pray to the Great Spirit affects our love and affection towards each other, our tolerance, and understanding. The illusion of separateness must be overcome, as in the idea that there are many races, when in reality there is but one human race.

. “The earth is but one country, mankind its citizens…”

If you see “mind getting in the way,” what sees the mind?

Unicity is the knowing of the unknowable Whole and parts to be inseparably One. 0=1!

We don’t “need” Unicity, as in fact that is all there is as Essence. And from a viewpoint associated with a person, you can have your ethnicities and pages, or page.

Spirit is synonymous with God, felt individuated by identification with a limited viewpoint: Atman is Brahman. There are many hypotheses as to how that plays out in the invisible, it being more of a both/and than an either/or dynamic. In the mean time, you will have a personal God as long as you think of yourself as a person. when that is known beyond an intellectual proposition, it is seen the there wasn’t ever a separation except as a concept held to in your mind as “true and experiential.”

And yes, if we all really understood ourselves as one Race in one World, it would be a different place.

 

[Sochi]

Hi Sochi!

I found truth and reality in Advaita Vedanta. I hold to “Not Two-ness”, which I came to an awareness of in 2005.

Happy death day!

Baha’u’llah puts the realization of nonduality this way:

“This station is the dying from self and the living in God, the being poor in self and rich in the Desired One. Poverty as here referred to signifieth being poor in the things of the created world, rich in the things of God’s world. For when the true lover and devoted friend reacheth to the presence of the Beloved, the sparkling beauty of the Loved One and the fire of the lover’s heart will kindle a blaze and burn away all veils and wrappings. Yea, all he hath, from heart to skin, will be set aflame, so that nothing will remain save the Friend.”

Yes, I tend to agree, save my take is that poverty is the cessation of identifying self with person, or having a stake in outcomes.

However that highest truth, while very real, did not provide a framework for right living either individually or socially (and how could it, that is not what nonduality is about). Eventually I found myself embracing the truth of Baha’u’llah while never letting go of the reality of non-duality.

Nothing is not included. To me non duality is felt as the knowledge that what is other is in fact self. That, it seems to me, is the reason for both the Golden Rule, and the Great Commandment.

Of course, non-duality is not compatible with a fundamentalist reading of any religion, including the Baha’i Faith. And many Baha’is will fail to see the relevance of non-dual ground of reality.

Yes, I find that with the Baha’is in my book club!

The non-dual teachings of the Baha’i Faith are found in the Seven Valleys and other mystical works from Baha’u’llah.

I enjoy his explications, but they seem a bit complex to me, but there is much in such things that are due to temperament. I’m guessing the you can have a stadium full of those who “See,” and have about as many forms of expression, while the core is Identical. And therein lies my only diversion from Catholicism: They have, over time, as far as I can see, made it all too complex to apprehend in simplicity. And that is why I tend to rail about legalism on here. It clouds the issue.

Thanks for your note!

 

[Sochi]

daler;12013565:

As someone with an experience both as a Baha’i and as an explorer of the nondual nature of reality, perhaps I might give this a try.

Unicity is a nondual reference to the ultimate nature of reality. Baha’is would say that only God is ultimately real, that would be a pointer towards the same truth. I believe the “Divine Unity” referred to often in the writings is another such pointer.

I think the word “Unity” referred to in the writings is more mysterious than it might appear at first. At one time, I thought “unity” just meant “everybody be nice and pretend to agree on everything”. Now I see unity as a word meaning recognition that all reality is part of an intelligent, harmonious wholeness unfolding organically. At one level that does indeed mean human beings acting together in harmony to solve global issues.

I would put things this way - nonduality (from the Hindu and Buddhist traditions, primarily) focuses on the pathless path through the highest of the Seven Valleys, while Abrahamic faiths have traditionally focused on the first four (with most people not getting past the valley of knowledge).

Today we have what we need to traverse all seven, ignoring none of them and honoring them all.

That is well said. Thank you. The traversing of the valleys leads me to ask if you have read Ken Wilber’s A Brief History of Everything?

 

[Matthew_Light]

Nothing is not included. To me non duality is felt as the knowledge that what is other is in fact self. That, it seems to me, is the reason for both the Golden Rule, and the Great Commandment.

From another perspective, we have people like XYZ who actually see and embrace the nondual truth and then start charging $1000 a seminar to hear him talk about it.

We see many gurus with genuine nondual understanding who have sex with their students, or who scream at them and call them curse words.

In other words - these people are not integrated in the healthiest way. I saw that in “my own” life too, even after “seeing through” the game.

That is where the value is in so-called apparent pathways other than the non-dual one. It’s still all just a dance of consciousness, but there are more beautiful ways to structure the “lower levels” of consciousness and decidedly less beautiful ones.

Of course getting stuck only perceiving at the lower levels is a big problem too!

 

[PJM]

=Sochi;12010657]

Thanks for your book learning. It is, as always, impressive. It is also impressive that you consider that you know God’s singular truth and are in your eyes and adequate representative of it. And you are not picking on me. You don’t know me to pick on. But your learning is also very

 

[Sochi]

From another perspective, we have people like XYZ who actually see and embrace the nondual truth and then start charging $1000 a seminar to hear him talk about it.

We see many gurus with genuine nondual understanding who have sex with their students, or who scream at them and call them curse words.

In other words - these people are not integrated in the healthiest way. I saw that in “my own” life too, even after “seeing through” the game.

That is where the value is in so-called apparent pathways other than the non-dual one. It’s still all just a dance of consciousness, but there are more beautiful ways to structure the “lower levels” of consciousness and decidedly less beautiful ones.

Of course getting stuck only perceiving at the lower levels is a big problem too!

Yes, what you describe is kind of a mystery to me, despite having experiences along those lines that actually taught me something. It means that seeing the mind for what it is doesn’t necessarily fix the mind. I’ve held from the time of my recognitions that they are only a foundation for work unfolding. And for me, I would revert to Catholicism or something, if it actually and publicly accommodated in its teaching what to me is obviously its foundation in the first place. It is kind of like the Guru complex you so well describe, complicated by the valley of “knowledge.” What to do??? I just hang out with others of my ilk, in books, on line, or in person, despite my conviction that a community is of great advantage. I just haven’t found one that suits, yet. None of the “one correct religion(s) with the truth” fill the bill at the moment.

Enjoying chatting with you.

 

[Sochi]

=Sochi;12010657]

 

[Matthew_Light]

Matthew Light;12013766:

That is well said. Thank you. The traversing of the valleys leads me to ask if you have read Ken Wilber’s A Brief History of Everything

?

I read most (maybe all?) of his earlier books but not A Brief History. I was too busy demonstrating through counterexample my thesis of the importance of proper integration of the lower valleys by the time he published it to spend time reading anything more on that topic. But thanks for the recommend!

 

[PRmerger]

Third, you, sad to say, seem to be the one who does not wish others to express their opinions, that is unless their opinion is in “lockstep” with yours.

It is, in fact, you, Tom, who are professing dogmas while objecting to the Catholic Church professing dogmas.

See below:

Unity is not uniformity.

See that?
See how you are professing dogmas?

And then you say, in another post:

Some people seem much more interested in religion and dogma and doctrine and many other things about God than in God.

The above is indeed an indictment of dogma and doctrine.

While, astonishingly, you go on to profess and proclaim your dogma and doctrine in a multitude of posts here!

To wit:

God made ALL of us different, could be God had a reason for doing that as opposed to making us a bunch of clones.

And here:

Also, if God wanted us to be a bunch of parrots, I would think that God could have done it that way but God did NOT do it that way.

It is injudicious of you to allow for yourself the right to profess dogmas and doctrines, while indicting others who do the same.

 

[daler]

I enjoy his explications, but they seem a bit complex to me, but there is much in such things that are due to temperament…

Thanks for your note!

Sochi,
. Probably you are aware of this, that the Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys were addressed to a Sufi, and as such, are of a mystical bent in a language of ideas meaningful to them more particularly than the rest of us. Nevertheless, when you get into it, it is sort of mind-blowing.

. About a year ago several friends and myself had the good fortune to attend a series of deepenings on the Seven Valleys, hosted by a Persian woman with a doctorate of psychology. She shared many insights that I would have never figured out, not coming from that culture.

. I used to have trouble with all the “flowery language” He often uses, but eventually came to be in awe of what is being expressed which cannot be expressed in any other way.
.

 

[PJM]

=Sochi;12013901]

Yes, thanks for your explanation. Interestingly, the premises you hold to be self evident for some reason don’t stick with everyone, despite some great wisdom contained therein. As I have mentioned, I am exceedingly familiar with your premises, only that by some miracle I got a bit of viewing distance on them. I admire your persistence. It perhaps will eventually lead to a more comprehensive view. Blessings on you.

 

[Sochi]

Sochi, About a year ago several friends and myself had the good fortune to attend a series of deepenings on the Seven Valleys, hosted by a Persian woman with a doctorate of psychology. She shared many insights that I would have never figured out, not coming from that culture.

I used to have trouble with all the “flowery language” He often uses, but eventually came to be in awe of what is being expressed which cannot be expressed in any other way.

Yes, “deepenings” is a good word. I am happy for you that you are engaged in a way that has unfolding meaning for you.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, “deepenings” is a good word. I am happy for you that you are engaged in a way that has unfolding meaning for you.

While having something have “meaning” for oneself is great, we also want this “meaning” to be grounded in truth.

 

[Sochi]

While having something have “meaning” for oneself is great, we also want this “meaning” to be grounded in truth.

Yes. You might take that to heart instead of turning it on someone else.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes. You might take that to heart instead of turning it on someone else.

I have no idea what you mean by this.

Could you please explain what “turning this on someone else” means as it applies to this dialogue?

 

[Sochi]

I have no idea what you mean by this.

Could you please explain what “turning this on someone else” means as it applies to this dialogue?

I give up, PR. You are an impenetrable and supreme expert in diversion. I neither can nor want to compete with that. Good luck.

 

[PRmerger]

I give up, PR. You are an impenetrable and supreme expert in diversion. I neither can nor want to compete with that. Good luck.

Huh?