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cheezey
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Bravo!!
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PJM
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[QUOT]E=Sochi;12030647]How about Mark 4:33,34? We are arrogant to think we know the core of His teaching from what’s left as introductory public knowledge and some historically questionable legend. And how on Earth are you going to have any weight whatsoever with your quotes, as they require belief, not knowledge, to begin with? You grew up in your faith, I’m guessing so you have no idea how utterly improbable christianism is to someone who hears about it as an adult for the first time. And please con’t quote to me about missionaries. The record of christianist missionaries is one of the most sullied imaginable, the few kind and good notwithstanding. Yes, we’re back to Columbus, et al.
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"Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?
[16] Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And ***Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven."
John 14: 26 “But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.”
And MOST of what Paul learned was though God’s INFUSED knowledge.
1st. Cor. 11: 24-27 “For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. [24] And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. [25] In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.”
John 15: 26-27 " But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me. And you shall give testimony, because you are with me from the beginning."
Mk. 4: 33-34 “And with many such parables, he spoke to them the word, according as they were able to hear. And without parable he did not speak unto them**; but apart, he explained all things to his disciples”**
NOW Read. Jn. 17:18 and Jn. 20: 21 "were God gives to His Church though the apostles HIS REAL and actual Powers and Authority. Doubt it? READ Mt. 10: 1-8
God Bless you my friend,
Patrick
No
Not at All"Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?
[16] Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And ***Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven."
John 14: 26 “But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.”
And MOST of what Paul learned was though God’s INFUSED knowledge.
1st. Cor. 11: 24-27 “For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. [24] And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. [25] In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.”
John 15: 26-27 " But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me. And you shall give testimony, because you are with me from the beginning."
Mk. 4: 33-34 “And with many such parables, he spoke to them the word, according as they were able to hear. And without parable he did not speak unto them**; but apart, he explained all things to his disciples”**
NOW Read. Jn. 17:18 and Jn. 20: 21 "were God gives to His Church though the apostles HIS REAL and actual Powers and Authority. Doubt it? READ Mt. 10: 1-8
God Bless you my friend,
Patrick
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Matthew_Light
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Most people will always be adherents of some belief system. Even most Advaitans and Zen practitioners! Few see the reality behind / inside, they see the contents of the belief system instead of the “system”-ness of it, and that it is constructed out of thought and prior to the ground of beingness with their own very selves.
That said, there is a great deal of improvement needed in the belief systems which are extant. One can be a fundamentalist of any faith, or someone who sees the value in other faiths and not Satan around every corner. Helping people of every background to value the universal within their own scriptures and belief systems instead of hating and fearing it - is a worthy task in this unfolding story of life we find ourselves participating in!
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Matthew_Light
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Most people will always be adherents of some belief system. Even most Advaitans and Zen practitioners! Few see the reality behind / inside, they see the contents of the belief system instead of the “system”-ness of it, and that it is constructed out of thought and prior to the ground of beingness with their own very selves.
That said, there is a great deal of improvement needed in the belief systems which are extant. One can be a fundamentalist of any faith, or someone who sees the value in other faiths and not Satan around every corner. Helping people of every background to value the universal within their own scriptures and belief systems instead of hating and fearing it - is a worthy task in this unfolding story of life we find ourselves participating in!
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Sochi
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I like the “system”-ness " idea. Not sure about how or why you are stating the thought as being prior to Ground. I can imagine what you might mean, but would like some clarification. And yes, I completely agree with the first part, as intellectual apprehension is one thing, and crashing the Gate quite another.
No kidding, Sherlock!
It’s why I had to get out, others I knew had to do the same, even after some great deal of sincere due diligence; there was no practical accommodation or resolution for my linguistic ignorance of what happened! It is only lately I’m seeing the way many had to write to avoid censure or worse! Yet even in the Church there are some few who see. How could there not be? Reality is no respecter of religion.That is well put. Matthew Light is appropriate; you are no “bud lite.”
And if there is ever a thread on it, there are some remarkable insights into the “Satan” dynamic.
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Matthew_Light
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A misstatement of course - beingness is of course prior to thought. My fingers sometimes slip !
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Sochi
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Wow. You are theo nly one I’ve dever herd off hwoo thad ahppends 2…
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tonyfish58
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PRmerger
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Well, the Church in the past 5-6 decades did an abysmal job providing nourishing catechesis, so I’m not sure I would be proud of “stars and A’s”.
But let’s see you put your money where your mouth is, Sochi. How would you answer a Protestant who says, “The Mass is man-made! It’s no-where in the Bible!”, using the catechesis given to you by the nuns, priests and brothers (and not consulting with Fr. Google)?
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tbcrawford
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tbcrawford
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Thank you so much Tony and God bless youThat is indeed wonderful news
God Bless and Regards Tony
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Sochi
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So you received your training before that, and such is your basis of comparison?
And your picky rebuttal, because damn straight there would be one, of what I might say would prove the thread thesis, or even go towards it? I have absolutely no stake in provoking your opinion on the matter PR. Who gives a hoot what a Protestant says about that, anyway? What does the Mass mean to you? That might have some merit in revealing, while the other is intellectual fencing with a hypothesized someone. And it certainly wouldn’t go to the thread topic.
As I said, you are an accomplished diversionary. In your mind, given the above assessment of catechesis PR, I’m already wrong and–by extension of your claim–so is the Church. I won’t pander to that.
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Sochi
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Regarding how we look at any particular experience:
Ken Wilber suggests that we can look at 4 aspects of any aspect of human experience or “holon.” By looking at our experiences through all 4 of these 4 perspectives, we both gain greater insight into their totality/nature, and avoid falling into the more common traps of believing that the perspective we are naturally drawn to is the “one right” perspective.
In brief summary, each and every experience we have as human beings can be understood through 4 perspectives, consisting of a matrix of two binary choices: interior/exterior vs. individual/group. As a matrix it might look as follows (figure 1.):
Figure 1.
Ken Wilber suggests that we can look at 4 aspects of any aspect of human experience or “holon.” By looking at our experiences through all 4 of these 4 perspectives, we both gain greater insight into their totality/nature, and avoid falling into the more common traps of believing that the perspective we are naturally drawn to is the “one right” perspective.
In brief summary, each and every experience we have as human beings can be understood through 4 perspectives, consisting of a matrix of two binary choices: interior/exterior vs. individual/group. As a matrix it might look as follows (figure 1.):
Figure 1.
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vsedriver
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are you saying it is impossible to determine what is truth unless you can determine what creates truth?
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Sochi
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Truth IS. And there are things that are true for you, and not others. eg not everyone lives at your address, or likes your favorite color, or your favorite food. What I’m saying is that without knowing how you yourself work as a phenomenon, that is, how you account for, see, and understand your pre verbal and cognitive prejudices, local inculcations, language structure, etc, etc, whatever truth IS is already perceptually compromised by your filters. Those filters are locally tuned for survival purposes and include your predilection to a particular faith or lack of one. You aren’t born into a Muslim household and start spontaneously spouting christianist doctrine. And as such you would likely filter christianist doctrine as “not truth” because of your birth circumstances. Same with christianists, or any other faith or political leaning, etc. There is only one recognition that bypasses all that and actually does spring up spontaneously and in complete accord with other having the same experience, without regard to historic time, place, culture, gender, religion or lack of it, or any other factor.
What I’m saying is that people tend to “think” they think when they generally have no clue as to how they think and with what.
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PJM
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m sharing FACTS that are the singular truth.
You refuse to accept it but are unable to refute it.
Have you considered that God withholds His RIGHT understanding until such time [if ever?] one turns back to Him: Repent and Convert.
God Bless you,
Patrick
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vsedriver
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Sochi
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So (PJM +belief) = FACTS, while (data+critical thinking) = falsehood, heresy, error, refusal, sin, etc for the rest of the litany of not PJM’s opinion.
Hey, now understand. You just won’t accept that your rationalized opinion is just that, and refuse to look at how it is so. But you don’t seem to be able to account for why, when I totally knew and believed what you do, something changed my vision to a larger picture. I guarantee it wasn’t any “devil.” That must terrify you, and your only defense is to exhort me to shrink back by conversion and repentance. Do you really think that is even on the table? Not unless you submit me to the Inquisition, and I’m pretty certain that every such conversion was false, and done only to get relief from intolerable suffering. Don’t you agree? But maybe a few were honest and just died. And you won’t even go to sources from people in your own faith. So how is this supposed to be a conversation? It is just a rant on your part.
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