Only ready to be a husband if ready to be celebate?

[chevalier]

Your extrapolation kills their extrapolation but fact stands one has to seek God’s will in one’s life and follow the vocation that is there. In that light, we should be able to come to terms with being single, should that be our calling. This obviously does not mean that we must make ourselves asexual and disinterested in the other gender before marrying.

 

[Norseman82]

Your extrapolation kills their extrapolation but fact stands one has to seek God’s will in one’s life and follow the vocation that is there. In that light, we should be able to come to terms with being single, should that be our calling. This obviously does not mean that we must make ourselves asexual and disinterested in the other gender before marrying.

The point is that the ability top handle lifelong celibacy is an integral part of discerning your calling. The inability to handle lifelong celibacy most likely is a sign that a celibate vocation is not your “calling”.

Also, be carefule about throwing around the “God’s will” phrase. I do not subscribe to the “micromanaging God” view, which can lead to cult-like manipulation (beware the Kool-aid in metal vats). In fact, God has indicated that “it is not good for the man to be alone” (Genesis), as well as the other previous scripture quotes. And CCC 1603 states that the vocation to marriage was written intop our very nature, so it is safe to assume that we are called to marriage until we discern otherwise (I know that is shocking to a lot of the convention wisdom - or rather lack thereof - but that is what our Catechism offically states).

 

[chevalier]

The point is that the ability top handle lifelong celibacy is an integral part of discerning your calling. The inability to handle lifelong celibacy most likely is a sign that a celibate vocation is not your “calling”.

Also, be carefule about throwing around the “God’s will” phrase. I do not subscribe to the “micromanaging God” view, which can lead to cult-like manipulation (beware the Kool-aid in metal vats). In fact, God has indicated that “it is not good for the man to be alone” (Genesis), as well as the other previous scripture quotes. And CCC 1603 states that the vocation to marriage was written intop our very nature, so it is safe to assume that we are called to marriage until we discern otherwise (I know that is shocking to a lot of the convention wisdom - or rather lack thereof - but that is what our Catechism offically states).

I do not subscribe to the “micromanaging God” view, either, and if you see my posts as a whole, you will notice that I refer to God’s will rarely and reluctantly, but in this case, we are talking about vocation, which is something of crucial importance in every one of us. That is certainly a matter in which we should pray to follow God’s will in our lives. That does not mean being happy for lifelong celibacy if marriage doesn’t turn out to be our calling, but that does mean or rather should include acceptance of God’s will, whatever it might be, commending ourselves into God’s care, praying about the choices we make. In this light, the notion that one needs in some way to accept the possibility of celibacy before being ready for marriage cannot be dismissed as wholly wrong because some of its notions are true, although not all.

Also, ability to handle lifelong celibacy or not, we are expected to live up to our current state, which means that if we’re singles longing for marriage, and that marriage never happens in our life, our life should have been celibate, even if some transgressions on our part have occured. Some ability to reconcile ourselves with our current state is therefore required.

Once again, I am not in favour of the option which you oppose, but I cannot agree with the view that that option is altogether wrong. Both you and they probably look at the situation from different angles and arrive at somewhat different conclusions. The essentials, however, are that despair is not good, calm and peace with one’s current state is a good thing, following the vocation (whichever it be) is the right thing, ability to abstain all our life if marriage doesn’t happen is “required”. On these points none of us probably disagree.

And CCC 1603 states that the vocation to marriage was written intop our very nature, so it is safe to assume that we are called to marriage until we discern otherwise (I know that is shocking to a lot of the convention wisdom - or rather lack thereof - but that is what our Catechism offically states).

Yes, that’s true, but some reflection is always a good thing and the line you quote does not invalidate the points which I outlined above and which are somehow expressed in the view that you oppose, although that view is wrong in so far as it is too far taken.

 

[DL82]

I was talking over my feeling of a call to celibacy with a woman who I might otherwise feel called to marry, and said that I’d dearly love to be a married man with a job serving God in the world, particularly in the academic world, where I am right now. Her reply was “but where’s the sacrifice in that?”

Is there such a thing as a sacrifice too far? If I’m using my natural talents for wisdom and affection for God’s purposes, rather than ‘sacrificing’ them by entering into a life of quiet simplicity and solitude, is that less valuable in His eyes? By that logic, only people who wanted to be celebate could make the sacrifice of giving up the opportunity to pray in an undivided way in order to marry, and only those who wanted to be married could make the sacrifice of a celebate life.

 

[iluvmybabies]

Thanks again all.

I guess the real question is, if I think I CAN (with the help of God’s grace of course) handle a life of celebacy, does that mean I shouldn’t marry?

On the other hand, being realistic about my ‘prospects’ I know I’m not exactly a ‘catch’ - 26, overweight, suffering anxiety and scrupulousness, a graduate student living on a stipend for the next 2 years (and not a Law or science graduate either, likely to find a low-paying public policy research or lecturing job), still struggling with lustful thoughts and an immoral past, quiet, not very fashionable, losing hair. I know I’m unlikely to find a woman who’s not just settling for whatever she can get, and even though I know marriage is supposed to be an image of Christ’s redemptive death for us, I don’t think I can enter freely and honestly and lovingly into such a situation.

First of all not many women care about physical appearance, I met my db without physical attraction, his whitty and most appealing personality is what caught my attention, he was this scrawny “nerdy”/“skateboarding”/scruffy looking thing, several years ago, he decided on his own to start exercising and gaining a little bit of weight and now he looks really handsome, but I didn’t care for that, I loved his curly hair, and his scruffy self no matter what, now he’s more “clean cut” because he thinks it will attrack me more but I still feel the same with him being either way…If he were overweight I would still love him no matter what…It’s not his looks I fell for it was his care, and compassion, the way he is understanding and kind…That’s more important to me to be at peace emotionally with my db is more important and hopefully he will be my dh soon!! I am almost 30 and divorced so for me to find someone at my age and I too am overweight, has been a miracle…I just hope we do get married! So I don’t see why you would give up on yourself like that…

Maybe the fairest thing for all is for me to accept religious life as the best use I can make of my talents. I certainly feel more at peace with that road than with the idea of pursuing marriage, except that it’s a sad peace, a peace of accepting a living death, a living sacrifice, because at least that way I won’t be disappointed.

If that is what you wish for then GOD bless but I don’t see a reason to give up on love and marriage…I mean you can fight your demons on your own with God’s grace, or you can find someone you can love and with GOD’s grace learn what true love is about and let yourself find out about 2 becoming one and seeing how wonderful a blessed marriage can be!!!

Another analogy comes to me - I have met people who have studied Law and have pushed themselves through years of boring books and memorizing cases to get themselves through law school, because at the end they’ll become the hot-shot lawyer they’ve always dreamed of being. Only problem is, they realise that when they get there the job they’ve dreamed of consists of studying boring books and memorizing cases!

Well that’s life for you!!!

Surely the same is true of the hope of heaven. In heaven, we will be alone with only God, but also in perfect community. We will not marry. We will serve and pray and praise and adore, and this will be our eternal joy. If I’m not willing to be happy with such a life on earth, then why do I even want to go to heaven? If I’m not trying my very hardest on earth to live the life of heaven, then I’m rejecting God’s call. It seems to me that for me to marry would be to say to God “thanks for heaven, but not just yet, let this woman and me enjoy ourselves for a while on earth first”.

Well that maybe true but GOD created man and WOMAN for a reason, and He also wished for us to “be very many” to marry and have children and have a fruitful life…So why on Earth would you want to pass out on that joy that GOD intended men and women to live by?!

To reiterate, if I think religious life is a possibility, however unwelcome a possibility, for me, should I pursue it before even considering marriage?

Again if you wish to live a life without marriage then GOD bless and may you have a wonderful life but if you just give up because you feel like it, then you will miss out on a lot of wonderful blessings that comes from enjoying a wonderful life with a life partner and getting to have children and grow old together and living blessed…

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

The inability to handle lifelong celibacy most likely is a sign that a celibate vocation is not your “calling”.

**Just wanted to use this as a jumping off point for another thought…

if some of you are saying that if you have that “belly rumbling” feeling it is best to get married so that you can satisfy that “need” (which by the way, comparing it to hunger is really not fair) then what happens if your spouse is suddenly unable to have sex? If you never got over the “need” for sex and never learned to be the master of your desires…what then?**

 

[iluvmybabies]

**Just wanted to use this as a jumping off point for another thought…

if some of you are saying that if you have that “belly rumbling” feeling it is best to get married so that you can satisfy that “need” (which by the way, comparing it to hunger is really not fair) then what happens if your spouse is suddenly unable to have sex? If you never got over the “need” for sex and never learned to be the master of your desires…what then?**

That’s a good question…I am curious to know as well because there comes a time when some spouses are unable to “perform” any more, and if the need is still there what to do then?!

 

[Pro-Life_Teen]

I was talking over my feeling of a call to celibacy with a woman who I might otherwise feel called to marry, and said that I’d dearly love to be a married man with a job serving God in the world, particularly in the academic world, where I am right now. Her reply was “but where’s the sacrifice in that?”

Is there such a thing as a sacrifice too far? If I’m using my natural talents for wisdom and affection for God’s purposes, rather than ‘sacrificing’ them by entering into a life of quiet simplicity and solitude, is that less valuable in His eyes? By that logic, only people who wanted to be celebate could make the sacrifice of giving up the opportunity to pray in an undivided way in order to marry, and only those who wanted to be married could make the sacrifice of a celebate life.

The reading, 2 weeks ago I believe- we shouldn’t bury our talents. God gave us all gifts- we shouldn’t bury them and never bring them to light because we think it would be more sacrificial to do so.

You sacrifice in life. You give up your time when you marry, you have responsibilities. But when you’re in seminary you also have things to do and an order to how things go. Of course people like to be married, and the religious love their vocation-- we have it instilled by God to find this pleasing. Not all pleasing things are bad.

We have vocations for a reason- to pursue them. Not to find out what they are and do the opposite in the name of sacrifice.

 

[Norseman82]

**Just wanted to use this as a jumping off point for another thought…

if some of you are saying that if you have that “belly rumbling” feeling it is best to get married so that you can satisfy that “need” (which by the way, comparing it to hunger is really not fair) then what happens if your spouse is suddenly unable to have sex? If you never got over the “need” for sex and never learned to be the master of your desires…what then?**

Oh for crying out loud…what is it with youse women always trying to scare healthy males away from marriage with these rare exception scenarios?

Maybe youse should confront St. Paul over what he wrote.

** (which by the way, comparing it to hunger is really not fair) **

Which shows that you obviously are not a male. Of course, maybe we males should start making oversimplified comments about female problems and see how well that flies.

 

[iluvmybabies]

Oh for crying out loud…what is it with youse women always trying to scare healthy males away from marriage with these rare exception scenarios?

Maybe youse should confront St. Paul over what he wrote.

Which shows that you obviously are not a male. Of course, maybe we males should start making oversimplified comments about female problems and see how well that flies.

No seriously…You know? It’s like what would happen?! I mean many things can happen to cause a partner the inability to perform or even “want” to, what is one to do?

Yes of course men have different perspective over things and I am sure she wasn’t trying to contradict, it was just her opinion as well…No wrong caused by it…

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

Oh for crying out loud…what is it with youse women always trying to scare healthy males away from marriage with these rare exception scenarios?
**
Geez, relax. I was asking an honest question. And it comes from direct experience in my own marriage. **

And why would I want to scare men away from marriage? I just want to know how a man who thinks sex is a “need” like food would cope with not being able to have it in a marriage where he expects to be able to?

Maybe youse should confront St. Paul over what he wrote.
**
No need…I am not confronting anyone. Not even you. I am asking a question. If you don’t have an answer…next please.**

Which shows that you obviously are not a male.
**
No, but I do have a husband and I do listen to him. **

Of course, maybe we males should start making oversimplified comments about female problems and see how well that flies.

**Maybe you need to go eat something…such an over reaction might mean your blood sugar is a bit low. I didn’t oversimplify anything, I asked a question. And having sexual desires is not just a male “problem”…not that I think it is a problem at all.

So, if you have an answer to my question I will gladly listen…if you don’t, I am done with this and will check back for answers from men who are willing to consider that sometimes things happen in life that make sex within their marriage impossible (either for a short time or permanently).
**

 

[TLDenmark]

Dear Feanaro’s Wife

**Just wanted to use this as a jumping off point for another thought…

if some of you are saying that if you have that “belly rumbling” feeling it is best to get married so that you can satisfy that “need” (which by the way, comparing it to hunger is really not fair) then what happens if your spouse is suddenly unable to have sex? If you never got over the “need” for sex and never learned to be the master of your desires…what then?**

I don’t like the “belly rumbling” comparison either, but I do see some truth in it. Involuntary single life is unhealthy, both sexually and emotionally. It can lead to frustrations, self-doubt and loneliness, in the process reinforcing all kinds of bad habits and character traits. Mind you I am not exclusively talking about sexual sins, that is only a part of the problem.

Take my own example, a guy that have lived alone for more than 6 years. I am not used to share things, or to have other people depend on me. So right now I am sitting at the computer, it is 20:33 and I have yet to prepare my dinner. Since I am alone, I only have to deal with my own hunger. If I want to finish this post before getting something to eat, that is OK. But it would be different in a marriage, in particular if I had children. Other people would depend on me, and suddenly my present habits would be a major problem. So if I get married, I will have to deal with some frustrations and sacrifices while once again getting used to live with another human being. But the problem will only get bigger, the longer the time I stay away from marriage.

Something similar is true in other areas. I come with a history of past sexual sin and purity issues tied into the use of porn. A part of the problem was a harmful worldview, another was loneliness, wanting intimacy (not the same as sex) and a lack of self-esteem. Since then I have been blessed with a wake up call from Christ, and have tried to clear up my life. Getting rid of the sexually active lifestyle was relatively easy, but the masturbation was much more difficult. It have demanded a lot of struggling on my part, but by the grace of God I have had a great deal of success. By trying to remove the occasions to sin, by seeking healing trough the sacraments, and by a lot of prayer, I find myself falling less and less. The bad habits are losing the battle against God. However when I still fall, it is not so much because I am confronted with an impure thought. Not that they are not a part of it, but I can usually deal with them when I strong. Instead I mostly fall whenever the loneliness and lack of intimacy gets to me, because it leaves me vulnerable and depressed. Basically I fall whenever the frustrations of single life get to me.

I have reached a point where I know in my heart that if I marry an understanding wife and stay vigilant, the sin is going to lose its grip once and for all. That is, I know that I can stay chaste within a marriage. However if I stay single, I will be neither completely chaste nor truly happy. So what is your advice (or anybody else’s advice), should I try to marry as Saint Paul advices or should I stay single? Mind you I don’t want marriage to release sexual tension, but because I want to share intimacy and love with another person.

As for your question, I hope the two spouses will help each other getting trough such a difficult situation. If they showed each-other love, reminded each-other of the vows they made, and tried to support each-other against sin, that would make it a lot more bearable. But yes it would be difficult, no doubt about it.

God bless you
TL

PS: It is now 21:12, and I still have no dinner ready .

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

I have reached a point where I know in my heart that if I marry an understanding wife and stay vigilant, the sin is going to lose its grip once and for all.

**That’s wonderful. Praise God that He has helped you through your struggles!!!

But, look back to when you had a different view of sex and masturbation… would you have made a good husband then? Of course not. Because you did not have the ability to master your desires as you do now. That doesn’t mean you won’t fall…we ALL do in our own particular struggles. It just means you know right from wrong and can rely on God’s grace to help you.**

That is, I know that I can stay chaste within a marriage. However if I stay single, I will be neither completely chaste nor truly happy. So what is your advice (or anybody else’s advice), should I try to marry as Saint Paul advices or should I stay single? Mind you I don’t want marriage to release sexual tension, but because I want to share intimacy and love with another person.

If you feel like you are being called to the vocation of marriage then that is your path. But, being who you are, with the struggles you have faced… do you think you are strong enough to face a lifetime of true celibacy if your future wife were to become unable to have sex? Obviously, the chances of that happening are very slim…just wondering if you think that would be a catalyst back into sinful ways or if you are now reliant enough on God that you trust He could get you through it?

As for your question, I hope the two spouses will help each other getting trough such a difficult situation. If they showed each-other love, reminded each-other of the vows they made, and tried to support each-other against sin, that would make it a lot more bearable. But yes it would be difficult, no doubt about it.
**
And that is my point. If a man views sex as a "need’ like hunger, how can he lovingly accept that he will not be “fed” for a short or long time?**

God bless you
TL

PS: It is now 21:12, and I still have no dinner ready
**
Go eat for goodness sakes, lol**

.

 

[Norseman82]

Geez, relax. I was asking an honest question. And it comes from direct experience in my own marriage.

And why would I want to scare men away from marriage? I just want to know how a man who thinks sex is a “need” like food would cope with not being able to have it in a marriage where he expects to be able to?

No need…I am not confronting anyone. Not even you. I am asking a question. If you don’t have an answer…next please.

Maybe you need to go eat something…such an over reaction might mean your blood sugar is a bit low. I didn’t oversimplify anything, I asked a question. And having sexual desires is not just a male “problem”…not that I think it is a problem at all.

So, if you have an answer to my question I will gladly listen…if you don’t, I am done with this and will check back for answers from men who are willing to consider that sometimes things happen in life that make sex within their marriage impossible (either for a short time or permanently).

First of all, I already answered your question by stating that it was a “rare exception” case.

Second, you do realize what the context of this thread is, right? I’m just applying that train of thought to show how absurd it is. I noticed that in all of this, that you chose to attack the analogy itself rather than what was being said in the analogy. Is that a sign that you don’t have any valid answers of your own for it? Same for the blood sugar remark, and I’m really biting my tongue to not post what I feel you need to take.

We are generating almost impossible standards and hurdles to people who want to get married - especially males.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

First of all, I already answered your question by stating that it was a “rare exception” case.

Not as rare as one might think. Periodic abstinence occurs monthly when using NFP, for periods of illness, pregnancy, after childbirth etc. Longer term abstinence occurs during separations (for things like work etc), severe health issues etc. Permanent abstinence can happen when a spouse has an illness or handicap, or is in a coma or otherwise not functioning.

Second, you do realize what the context of this thread is, right?

Yes, I answered the original question on page one.

I’m just applying that train of thought to show how absurd it is. I noticed that in all of this, that you chose to attack the analogy itself rather than what was being said in the analogy.
Is that a sign that you don’t have any valid answers of your own for it?
**
What exactly do you want me to answer?**

Same for the blood sugar remark,
**
I asked a legitimate question and you freaked out…sorry but that is not rational.**

and I’m really biting my tongue to not post what I feel you need to take.

Thanks.

We are generating almost impossible standards and hurdles to people who want to get married - especially males.

I don’t see how, maybe you could help me to understand?

 

[Norseman82]

I really wish you’d master how to do quotes to make it easier for those who wish to respond to you point-by-point.

Not as rare as one might think. Periodic abstinence occurs monthly when using NFP, for periods of illness, pregnancy, after childbirth etc. Longer term abstinence occurs during separations (for things like work etc), severe health issues etc. Permanent abstinence can happen when a spouse has an illness or handicap, or is in a coma or otherwise not functioning.

I know periodic abstinence is not unusual and makes sense, but the longer term examples you cite (like the health/handicap/coma ones) are most likely rare and probably more common as one gets older and when one’s drive is down. Besides, periodic abstinence is much different than permanent, which is implied by the whole notion of “you have to accept celibacy before before being ready to be a husband”. If the original poster was referring to something other than lifetime celibacy, I will stand corrected, but I still want to find out what Church teaching he referred to in his opening post when he said that is what our faith teaches.

Yes, I answered the original question on page one.

What you answered was the difference bewteen celibacy and chastity.

What exactly do you want me to answer?

I don’t see how, maybe you could help me to understand?

Please reread post# 20:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4458798&postcount=20

What would you say to such a mother?

I asked a legitimate question and you freaked out…sorry but that is not rational.

What is not rational is all the extra unnecessary and unbiblical hoops we are expecting people to jump through to get married, like what was told to the original poster and is the point of this thread.

What is not rational are people who claim to be Catholic but ignore what God said in Genesis regarding “It is not good for the man to be alone” and what St, Paul wrote in chapter 7 of 1 Corinthians vs. 1-9.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

If you can’t be nice, I’m not going to play. I pray the OP has found some peace and some answers.

 

[TLDenmark]

Dear Feanaro’s Wife

That’s wonderful. Praise God that He has helped you through your struggles!!!

He is wonderful, is He not .

But, look back to when you had a different view of sex and masturbation… would you have made a good husband then? Of course not. Because you did not have the ability to master your desires as you do now. That doesn’t mean you won’t fall…we ALL do in our own particular struggles. It just means you know right from wrong and can rely on God’s grace to help you.

I was an honest guy who hated infidelity, but also had the typical “if nobody is harmed, what is wrong with it” kind of attitude . So no, I wasn’t ready for a true Catholic sacramental marriage. Of course that became even more true, when I lost control to the porn thing. But that being said, I do think we should be very careful about telling people that they are unable to marry. We all come with some form baggage, and with some form of weakness or another. Marriage is not about the joining together of perfect beings, but about two human beings struggling toward heaven together. It is about growing in the faith, both becoming stronger, more loving and more complete person as time goes on.

If you feel like you are being called to the vocation of marriage then that is your path. But, being who you are, with the struggles you have faced… do you think you are strong enough to face a lifetime of true celibacy if your future wife were to become unable to have sex? Obviously, the chances of that happening are very slim…just wondering if you think that would be a catalyst back into sinful ways or if you are now reliant enough on God that you trust He could get you through it?

I know that I would never cheat on her or leave her, trying my best to give her all of the love and support she would need in such a difficult situation. However it would be a very trying experience, and it is possible that I would end up struggling with masturbation once again (sometimes failing).

And that is my point. If a man views sex as a "need’ like hunger, how can he lovingly accept that he will not be “fed” for a short or long time?

I agree that the analogy is faulty.

Go eat for goodness sakes, lol

I have been fed, and the belly is no longer rumbling .

God bless you
TL

 

[Norseman82]

If you can’t be nice, I’m not going to play. I pray the OP has found some peace and some answers.

And just how was I not being nice in my last reply? You should reread your own posts like the “blood sugar” remark before accusing others.

Speck, meet beam.

 

[iluvmybabies]

Ok if in the Bible it states that a man should not be alone, and therefore woman was created for the purpose of procreating, 2 becoming one, wouldn’t it make sense that since Jesus stated about the whole adultery and lust issue that even in your mind you are committing an adultery by lusting over someone, and the need for celebasy meaning, you will only love your spouse and not lust over anyone, for the rest of your life, then shouldn’t it be acceptable to assume that this means that pretty much in order for one to marry or be ready to “be a husband” then one must be ready to be celebate?!

And to be celebate doesn’t mean you have to be chastise it means you are willing to love and be there only for your spouse and not have lustful thoughts, which inturn are conceived to be sinfull ways of adultery towards any other human being, including your own spouse because lust is a sin but desire for your own spouse and love making of your own spouse is what Jesus and GOD intended man and woman to be; 2 souls becoming one and a life of celibacy!!

Well it does make sense then…Because if you are a man, with lustful thoughts but you decide you are in love with this woman-gf- eg, and you get married, but you check out another woman and you think “hey what she doesn’t know won’t hurt her,” or “hey I am not doing anything just checking her out!!” And this opens the doorway which causes lust, and as stated in the Bible lust is a sin, therefore causing you to commit adultery in your heart and mind against your wife…But it’s ok in your mind…Then one day you see your wife getting hit on by another man, and that gets your buttons burning and even though she is not responding to the other person, you are boiling up and ready to do something about it to that man or woman whomever is hitting on your wife and thoughts come to your head about your wife and this person, what if they do something or did something???..But technically you are the one whose committed adultery so why should this bother you?! So of course the whole celibacy is needed from both partners in order to avoid such situations of insecurity, and jealousy…If you didn’t lust over anyone at all and just dedicated your heart and soul to your spouse as GOD intended it to be, thus a life of celibacy, then your marriage will not have any trials such as these where you will feel guilty over something so insignificant as such…

So yeah a life of celibacy towards your spouse is definitely a must and an understanding of the wishes and teachings of Jesus against lust and towards a Holy Matrimony…

I understand a little better now…

Please anyone correct me if I am wrong!!