M
mikeledes
Guest
And so who does the calling in the case of those who refuse? In the verses I quoted, it is He who calls. God engrafts into the True Vine and *God * also takes away and throws away:
John 15:1-2, 6
"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
** 6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. **
You have accepted that the persons in questions are saved, and yet you cannot accept that they are described by CHRIST HIMSELF as being THROWN AWAY. From what are they being thrown away? You argue that “taken away” can be interpreted as “lift up” And neither of the most respected translations used by Calvinists - KJV and NASB - translate that verse that way. You mean to tell me that men who were scholars in Greek overlooked this? How do you explain that there is not a single respectable translation that translates this word as “lift up.” Moreover, you insist that “cast into the fire” is not a reference to hell, despite the overwhelming testimony that the Bible only uses that phrase when referring to eternal damnation, a fact recognized even by many Calvinists?
Luke 3:9
9"Indeed the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
Matthew 13:49-50
**49"So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. **
Matthew 18:8
8"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.
Jesus has defined “cast into the fire” and that is what He meant in John 15:6. The message of John 15 cannot be any clearer. Just as the branches partake of the life that is in the Vine, Christians partake of the life that is in Christ. Just as branches must remain attached to the vine in order to bear fruit, Christians must remain attached to Christ in order to bear spiritual fruit. Those Christians who cease to remain attached to Christ will be cut off. Just as a branch that is cut off from its source of life dries up/ dies, the person who is cut off from Christ spiritually “dries up.” Just as withered branches are only good for fuel and salt that has lost its saltiness is only good for being thrown out and tramples, he who cut off from Christ and is spiritually “withered” is only good for being cast into the fire, namely, hell. The ultimate end of a vine in nature is death and when that vine dies, the branches die with it. Christ is the True Vine and He shall never cease to exist. Therefore, all those who have been engrafted into Christ and remain engrafted will absolutely never perish. No one can perish if they are in Christ. But just as a branch withers after being cut off from the vine, so shall be the end of he who is cut off from Christ. And we know from Scripture that genuine Christians who have been “effectually” called can be severed from Christ and fall from grace:
Galatians 5:2-5
2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Romans 11:21-22
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off
If perseverance is inevitable for all of the righteous, then none of the above can happen. In other words, God uses empty warnings based on impossibilities:
Revelation 22:19
**19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. **
1 Corinthians 8:9-11
But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
1 Timothy 3:6
6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.
God does not give vain warnings based on impossibilities. He warns and, as the passages in Ezekiel demonstrates, His warnings are often fulfilled.
In addition, if all the righteous are assured perseverance, the what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 9:27:
27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
If Paul knows that there can be no possibility of disqualification - because he will inevitably persvere - then why does he raise it?
God Bless,
Michael
If you are comparing this verse with John 15:6, then it only serves to bolster the fact that John 15:6 is speaking of eternal damnation. If salt has lost its saltiness and thus is no longer good for anything, then how do you reconcile that with perseverance of the saints? Don’t all of the justified persevere in “saltiness?” “Saltiness” stands for righteious conduct. That’s why Jesus says what he says in Matthew 5:13 right* after * He discusses the beatitudes and then follows up by saying:
