Open Letter to Pope Benedict XVI

[Eden]

“How many Muslim clerics does it take to write an open letter to the Pope?” (add your own punchline).

Well, about the letter. It’s actually very flattering to Pope Benedict’s intellect, despite the fact that they accuse him of being “wrong”. Has anyone counted the number of signatories? Didn’t it take, like, 20 Muslim clerics to respond to one speech by one man and, like, a whole month to do it?

 

[pro_universal]

Hey guys, you are all slacking.

Why hasn’t anyone declared that Contarini is a Muslim yet?

Clearly, those hundreds of posts on Christian theology and praising the Church or engaging in debates are just an advanced “taqiyah.”

He was trying to lure you all in, and you fell for it.

Sheesh, I guess the Muslim-o-meters are getting rusty

You all need to grow some charity and stop bashing anyone who says anything remotely reasonable about Islam or Muslims.

 

[amoxoxoma]

You all need to grow some charity and stop bashing anyone who says anything remotely reasonable about Islam or Muslims.

I agree Pro. Engaging discussion with you has caused me to do some soul-searching and generated spiritual growth. For that I thank you. But I still disagree with you about some things.

 

[Cyber_Knight]

Hey guys, you are all slacking.

Why hasn’t anyone declared that Contarini is a Muslim yet?

Clearly, those hundreds of posts on Christian theology and praising the Church or engaging in debates are just an advanced “taqiyah.”

He was trying to lure you all in, and you fell for it.

Sheesh, I guess the Muslim-o-meters are getting rusty

You all need to grow some charity and stop bashing anyone who says anything remotely reasonable about Islam or Muslims.

Hello muslim! Meet again here. Contarini is not a muslim. Not yet. At least, I believe if I asked him to pronounce our shahada he wouldnt object. Unlike you. .

And oh I heard you left ‘catholicism’? Hey thats great man!! Congratulation. )

Cheers.

 

[Contarini]

I don’t see the comparison. Islam actually teaches that it is O.K. to lie or use deception in dealing with the non-believer if it serves the purpose of the Muslim at the time. Muslims who post here have admitted that.

Please point to the specific posts. Are you saying that they have admitted that this is permissible for any purpose whatever, with no limitations? I seriously doubt this.

Of course Islam is going to have some discussion of circumstances in which lying is permissible. So does Catholicism. Not all Catholics historically have agreed with St. Augustine on this point–most haven’t. There’s a huge casuistical literature on just how and when lying or equivocation might be legitimate. And the same is true in Protestantism. This is the sort of thing that all religions discuss (well, I don’t know about Buddhists!), but bigots on all sides find it easy to take these discussions out of context and say “see, you can’t trust those guys!” Because, of course, that’s what you want to say from the start. Any excuse will do.

It may be that Islam is laxer on this point than Catholicism. But I’d need to see evidence–not the mere existence of taqqiyah, but a serious discussion of how taqqiyah is defined by the different traditions of Islamic law, compared to the spectrum of positions in Catholicism (from Augustine to the 17th-century Jesuits attacked by Protestants and Jansenists).

This is the problem with all these discussions. People want to boil it down to “Islam does/does not permit lying” or “Islam is/is not violent.” It’s unbelievable to me that people think this level of discourse is adequate. You can’t characterize any religion in such a simplistic way.

It’s not that I don’t want to say anything negative about Islam. I’ve said quite a few negative things about Islam (go look at my long posts to pro a while back about the historical record of Islam). But I hate caricatures with all my soul. I don’t care who is being caricatured. I will fight that sort of thing with my last breath.

I don’t like silly, naive statements like “Islam is a religion of peace” either. But that’s not the dominant mood around here. . . .

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

If by “cynicism” you mean coming to terms with reality, then guilty as charged.

It’s a long story, but basically my first roommate in college turned out to be a Muslim (this was before 9/11 mind you) and so through him I had my first contact with Islam. At first I didn’t see anything right away, and even when 9/11 hit I remember thinking what a shame it was that a few extremists gave this whole religion a bad name. I started to get to know other Muslims around here and so it has been until today. Knowing Muslims in my own life also led me to start researching it online, and talking to other Muslims online as well. I also started talking online to non-muslims who lived in Islamic countries.

Did you need more specific details, then? Just what kind of proof are you looking for? It sounds like you have already convinced yourself that anyone who dares speak negatively of Islam must be doing so out of pure bigotry. If that’s the case there’s really nothing I can do.

I don’t believe anything of the kind, but it would indeed require an infinite mountain of evidence to convince me that all members of any religion ought to be distrusted as a matter of course. Human bigotry would always be a more plausible alternative, because we have so many historical examples of people saying this sort of thing about religions they didn’t like. It’s Tactic no. 1 in the Bigot’s Handbook.

Still, if you really have this vast amount of experience, you should share it. You haven’t given one shred of evidence so far.

You can always find experiences to justify prejudice. Or, as seems to be the case with you, you can find prejudices to explain bad experiences. But the result is corrosive to the soul.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

The Pope made no mistakes. Notice this dialogue didn’t start until after they had some riots and a few murders. Now suddenly they want to talk. How nice. However, Jihad does mean holy war and they do practice forced conversion. Remember, they called on the Pope to convert or be killed?

I repeat–did these specific people call on the Pope to convert or be killed? If not, then your statement is a lie. Lying is not OK just because it’s about Muslims.

Edwin

 

[pro_universal]

Contarini,

I hope they will read what you say and take it to heart.

But I have to confess, I share some of exoflare’s cynicism. I expect that your words will fall on deaf ears (or blind eyes, if that’s more appropriate to a forum).

I still feel compelled to speak up when I see it, but I have given up hope that American Catholicism will be purged of this problem. And given the tedious state of world affairs today, I think we’re all at serious risk of becoming complicit in indiscriminate violence against people based primarily on religious prejudice.

Back in 2003, I was more like exoflare than my posts on this board might indicate…and I’ve often wondered: Could I have been sold on the Iraq war if they weren’t mostly Muslims over there?

The answer for me is no, and I’m ashamed to say it.

 

[uni]

While I obviously don’t agree with the Islamic religion, I must say that this is a very positive development. This is very open and admirable of them to dialog and condemn violence (like the murder of the nun in Somalia) as “un-Islamic”.

Now, hopefully all the idiots in the streets will listen to men like these and cool off.

But you must ask this question to yourself why our Pope has to give rise to such dilemmas in the 1st place?

Do people learn Christianity from KKK or IRA?

 

[cestusdei]

Contrari, uh remember those signs from last month that said that the Pope must convert or die? Remember the riots? Did you notice my thread on Abdul who they want to kill for converting? How about the call from Gadahn to convert or die? This is all within the last few weeks. Have you been living in a cave?

uni, I learn Islam right from the quran and Muhammed. That’s why I oppose it so much. It was violent from the beginning and hasn’t changed since. I would be happy if a bunch of Islamic scholars got together and once and for all said the jihad is over.

 

[Contarini]

Contrari, uh remember those signs from last month that said that the Pope must convert or die? Remember the riots? Did you notice my thread on Abdul who they want to kill for converting? How about the call from Gadahn to convert or die? This is all within the last few weeks. Have you been living in a cave?

No, but so far no one has shown that any of these thirty-eight Islamic scholars signed on to this. In fact, you haven’t given me the name of any qualified imam who is behind this “fatwa.” The only person you have named is Gadahn, who is a marginal, radical figure. In fact, I am not aware that he has any qualifications that mainstream Islam would accept for issuing fatwas.

So I repeat: who issued this fatwa? For whom do they speak? Why do you persist in treating any statement by any wacko Muslim out there as representative of all Islam?

I’m very concerned about Islam myself. I think it is more intrinsically wedded to violence than Christianity, though I’d like to be wrong (you say you would too but I find that hard to believe given the tenacity with which you latch onto the slightest excuse to attack Islam). It is certainly our biggest rival right now, and likely to be for a long time. That’s precisely why I think being fair to Islam is of immense importance.

Edwin

 

[Valke2]

So I repeat: who issued this fatwa? For whom do they speak? Why do you persist in treating any statement by any wacko Muslim out there as representative of all Islam?

Edwin

I posted this earlier:

The Markaz-ud-Dawa, the political wing of the Lashkar-e-Tayiba, is reported to have issued a fatwa calling upon Muslims to kill Pope Benedict XVI for his September 12 speech, which has been projected as anti-Islam by Al Qaeda and other jihadi terrorist organisations.
The Markaz was acting on behalf of the International Islamic Front for Jihad Against the Crusaders and the Jewish People, which is headed by Osama bin Laden.

 

[Contarini]

I posted this earlier:

The Markaz-ud-Dawa, the political wing of the Lashkar-e-Tayiba, is reported to have issued a fatwa calling upon Muslims to kill Pope Benedict XVI for his September 12 speech, which has been projected as anti-Islam by Al Qaeda and other jihadi terrorist organisations.
The Markaz was acting on behalf of the International Islamic Front for Jihad Against the Crusaders and the Jewish People, which is headed by Osama bin Laden.

How large is this group’s membership? Does cestusdei have evidence showing that the 38 signatories of the open letter have some link to the Markaz?

Edwin

 

[Valke2]

How large is this group’s membership? Does cestusdei have evidence showing that the 38 signatories of the open letter have some link to the Markaz?

Edwin

I’m certainly not suggesting that they do. I was just posting who issued the fatwa (sp?).

 

[uni]

uni, I learn Islam right from the quran and Muhammed. That’s why I oppose it so much. It was violent from the beginning and hasn’t changed since. I would be happy if a bunch of Islamic scholars got together and once and for all said the jihad is over.

But when 1.5 billion mooslems read their Koran and way of their prophet they don’t see the way you see? Perhaps you may be reading their scriptures the way Rev. Jim Jones or Rev. Jim Bakker or David Koresh read/see their Bibles.

When our Pope was talking about Islam, he was qouting an ex, centuries old, outdated Catholic Emporer. Do Catholics still follow that Emporer? Do Catholics even agree with Limbo issue leave alone what an out dated Emporer had said?

What JP 2 said and did with regards to Mooslems was not good enough for Pope Benedict XVI? Why he had to resurrect an outdated baseless issue that made Catholics more irrational than ever now?

Do you know what is the real impact of Pope Benedict XVI’s unwise attempt? Because it shows his frustration as Catholic Church is loosing it’s adherents day by day and most Churches are almost empty but the Nightclubs are full. On the otherhand more Christians are curious about Mooslem faith which means Islam will win more Christians.

 

[Contarini]

Uni,

I think your analysis of the Pope’s motives is way off. The Pope cares most of all about truth. He was trying, nobly, to get beyond the conventions of pc politeness and start a real discussion about the practical implications of our understanding of God and about the importance of combining faith and reason. I think the open letter is a good response, and I hope the dialogue continues.

God bless the Pope for his courage! Understanding other religions isn’t his strong suit, but he’s certainly ahead of most of us, and he’s seriously grappling with the issues. Most public leaders are too scared to address these questions.

Edwin

 

[Reformed_Rob]

I read that letter, and enjoyed reading it I must say.

From my perspective, it was a very mature, polite, and well worded letter.

I’ve heard tale of a Catholic spokesman or Cardinal somebody saying that the Church wants to dialogue with Muslims, but that the Muslims just “aren’t up to it intellectually.” Well, I believe that may be an false proposition on his part. I happen to know that there is a long history of philosophy and intellectual thinking in Islam. Perhaps such thoughtful Muslims as those who penned that letter will be able to discuss things with our Catholic leadership.

 

[cestusdei]

uni IS a mooslem. After reading just 3 of his posts it became obvious. So uni, if the Pope was wrong about Islamic violence why did the Muslims immediately riot, kill a nun and several other people, and call for his death? Please tell me.

contarini, a Somali Sheik was one and shortly thereafter they murdered a nun. The Mujahadin Shura Council also did. As did Lashkar e toiba in Pakistan. Outside Westminister Cathedral they called for his death. They burned down several churches, killed several people, hundreds of thousands rioted (as usual). One of the signers of the letter is a Saudi cleric. Any comments as to the state of religious freedom in Saudi Arabia?

The Pope did not apologize for what he said. He simply regretted their violent reaction to the truth. If they had wanted to talk they had ample opportunity to take up the Popes invitation BEFORE murdering and rioting. None of them tried to stop the riots. How strange that Muslims will riot over a cartoon, but when someone as they say “hijacks” their religion they are very quiet. Estimates state that up to 200,000,000 Muslims are fundamentalists who support in some way the terrorists. It’s time they faced up to that and addressed it.

PS: Notice in the letter the item on forced conversion. Ask the Egyptian signers about the former Sheik in prison for converting to Christianity. Is that polite and mature?

 

[inJESUS]

Come on guys, Uni is a Muslim…

 

[Cyber_Knight]

Come on guys, Uni is a Muslim…

LOL. Very funy. Why need to pretend to be Catholics? <part of taqiyah, lying for the sake of Islam?>, cant they just be for who they are? Is there a muslim pretend to be a jew yet?
pretty much entertaining! Haha