Open Marriage Friends

[JasmineGld]

I received some questions in private messages, and that’s okay. This topic can be really difficult to talk about.

I’m going to post my replies in the thread, without identifying any person who asked.

I’ve been married more than thirty years.
My marriage has been open more than twenty years.

It is important to my marriage, to myself, and to my spiritual life that I be at peace with myself. For a long time, I tried to be the person that other people told me I ought to be… and it did not work. I’m not any good at being someone I’m not.

Foundational Bible scriptures for me include God’s statement to Moses, “I Am that I Am,” or more precisely, “I Am Becoming what I Am Becoming,” together with the scripture that God made humankind in God’s own image. It finally became clear to me that the condition of “I Am NOT Becoming what I Am” is actually a violation of my relationship with God, a dishonoring of my covenant with the Holy. This is when I decided to trust the God Who made me who I am and calls me to become all of that person, and walk into a future that is authentically my own with all the confidence I could muster.

Even when it means taking the road less traveled. Even when it mean inviting criticism or ostracism from my fellow Christians.

At the end of each day, I’m the person that I have to live with. And at the end of my life, and I’m the person whose life I’ll review. I cannot come to the end of my life and find I’ve lived someone else’s life because “they said so.” When I stand in judgment before God’s throne, I intend to be fully who I am, and Nobody Else. Anything else would be Sin. Missing the Mark. I am God’s Child, and I will NOT be less than I am because it scares somebody else. I just can’t.

The OP was advised by some to avoid the friends with the open marriage. I suggest that such action is inconsistent with Jesus’s teaching. Jesus spent time with tax collectors – He even called a tax collector to be one of His disciples. Tax collectors in Jesus’s day were among the WORST of offenders.

If Jesus could call a tax collector to serve as His disciple, surely the OP could model the love of Jesus with these friends.

Jasmine

 

[thomasf]

The OP was advised by some to avoid the friends with the open marriage. I suggest that such action is inconsistent with Jesus’s teaching. Jesus spent time with tax collectors – He even called a tax collector to be one of His disciples. Tax collectors in Jesus’s day were among the WORST of offenders.

If Jesus could call a tax collector to serve as His disciple, surely the OP could model the love of Jesus with these friends.

Jasmine

I love this argument. The one thing those who make it always miss: Jesus told those people to stop sinning and repent. And they did. Will you?

 

[silentfactor80]

I received some questions in private messages, and that’s okay. This topic can be really difficult to talk about.

I’m going to post my replies in the thread, without identifying any person who asked.

I’ve been married more than thirty years.
My marriage has been open more than twenty years.

It is important to my marriage, to myself, and to my spiritual life that I be at peace with myself. For a long time, I tried to be the person that other people told me I ought to be… and it did not work. I’m not any good at being someone I’m not.

Foundational Bible scriptures for me include God’s statement to Moses, “I Am that I Am,” or more precisely, “I Am Becoming what I Am Becoming,” together with the scripture that God made humankind in God’s own image. It finally became clear to me that the condition of “I Am NOT Becoming what I Am” is actually a violation of my relationship with God, a dishonoring of my covenant with the Holy. This is when I decided to trust the God Who made me who I am and calls me to become all of that person, and walk into a future that is authentically my own with all the confidence I could muster.

Even when it means taking the road less traveled. Even when it mean inviting criticism or ostracism from my fellow Christians.

At the end of each day, I’m the person that I have to live with. And at the end of my life, and I’m the person whose life I’ll review. I cannot come to the end of my life and find I’ve lived someone else’s life because “they said so.” When I stand in judgment before God’s throne, I intend to be fully who I am, and Nobody Else. Anything else would be Sin. Missing the Mark. I am God’s Child, and I will NOT be less than I am because it scares somebody else. I just can’t.

The OP was advised by some to avoid the friends with the open marriage. I suggest that such action is inconsistent with Jesus’s teaching. Jesus spent time with tax collectors – He even called a tax collector to be one of His disciples. Tax collectors in Jesus’s day were among the WORST of offenders.

If Jesus could call a tax collector to serve as His disciple, surely the OP could model the love of Jesus with these friends.

Jasmine

OK, thanks for posting but like the guy above said. This is fishy. The statements you gave can be interpreted quite openly. If you are “becoming a sinner” then that is not good. God orders us towards good and often times good is hard because it requires sacrifice. How did you find this forum and why comment on this?

Also, we are not exactly scared here. What we are discussing is truth. Lust is a tricky sin because its often confused with love. Love is not self-seeking, boastful, proud, or a fleshly pleasure. Love is a sacrifice and as Catholics we don’t see an open marriage consistent with sacrifice. Saying it renders jealousy moot is like saying you are sacrificing doing something bad. It is not really a sacrifice at all.

 

[PilgrimSong]

I received some questions in private messages, and that’s okay. This topic can be really difficult to talk about.

I’m going to post my replies in the thread, without identifying any person who asked.

I’ve been married more than thirty years.
My marriage has been open more than twenty years.

It is important to my marriage, to myself, and to my spiritual life that I be at peace with myself. For a long time, I tried to be the person that other people told me I ought to be… and it did not work. I’m not any good at being someone I’m not.

Foundational Bible scriptures for me include God’s statement to Moses, “I Am that I Am,” or more precisely, “I Am Becoming what I Am Becoming,” together with the scripture that God made humankind in God’s own image. It finally became clear to me that the condition of “I Am NOT Becoming what I Am” is actually a violation of my relationship with God, a dishonoring of my covenant with the Holy. This is when I decided to trust the God Who made me who I am and calls me to become all of that person, and walk into a future that is authentically my own with all the confidence I could muster.

Even when it means taking the road less traveled. Even when it mean inviting criticism or ostracism from my fellow Christians.

At the end of each day, I’m the person that I have to live with. And at the end of my life, and I’m the person whose life I’ll review. I cannot come to the end of my life and find I’ve lived someone else’s life because “they said so.” When I stand in judgment before God’s throne, I intend to be fully who I am, and Nobody Else. Anything else would be Sin. Missing the Mark. I am God’s Child, and I will NOT be less than I am because it scares somebody else. I just can’t.

The OP was advised by some to avoid the friends with the open marriage. I suggest that such action is inconsistent with Jesus’s teaching. Jesus spent time with tax collectors – He even called a tax collector to be one of His disciples. Tax collectors in Jesus’s day were among the WORST of offenders.

If Jesus could call a tax collector to serve as His disciple, surely the OP could model the love of Jesus with these friends.

Jasmine

Jesus did associate with tax collectors and prostitutes, absolutely. When questioned about it He said it was because the sick people need a physician, not the well. He told the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more. He loved people where they were, but challenged them to repent and leave their sins. When they repented sincerely, he forgave them. The theme of repentance and forgiveness is seen all throughout the Scriptures.

I would question your use of God’s word to Moses to defend your own actions. God was telling Moses Who HE was, not who Moses was. It is very easy to twist the Scriptures to make them mean almost anything one would like.

I do agree with you that at the end of life, it is God Who will judge each one of us.

 

[JasmineGld]

Really? This is your first post and you offer to answer questions about your own open marriage? This is a Catholic forum so the focus is on approaching issues from a Catholic perspective. I smell something suspicious…

Then I should explain. I spend a lot of time providing information about open marriage and polyamory. Because of this, I have Google alerts set for both terms.

Today, a Google alert arrived in my mailbox linking to the OP’s initial post. I read the thread and decided to register and offer myself as a resource.

A lot of people in open marriages are deeply closeted and don’t want to engage the conversation at all. If there are people who want information, I am willing to have a conversation.

Jasmine

 

[Francoist]

Jasmine, on the Last Day you will not be judged according to whether you were true to your own law. You will be judged according to whether you were true to the law of Jesus Christ.

“I’m sorry I didn’t do what you wanted God, but on the plus side I did what I wanted!” probably isn’t going to help your case. I suggest that you follow the teaching of the Catholic Church on these matters, which was established by Jesus Christ and is guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[JasmineGld]

I would question your use of God’s word to Moses to defend your own actions. God was telling Moses Who HE was, not who Moses was. It is very easy to twist the Scriptures to make them mean almost anything one would like.

I do not defend my actions.

Rather, I seek a deepening, ever more authentic relationship with God, and I ask what is required of me to make such a relationship happen.

And then I select my actions. Often with astonishing outcomes.

Jasmine

 

[PilgrimSong]

I do not defend my actions.

Rather, I seek a deepening, ever more authentic relationship with God, and I ask what is required of me to make such a relationship happen.

And then I select my actions. Often with astonishing outcomes.

Jasmine

So you ask yourself how you can have a deeper relationship with God and the answer you come up with is to have sex with men other than your husband?

You talked about the Bible. There are numerous passages that condemn adultery. I didn’t find any that said that it is OK as long as your spouse knows about it and approves. I realize you said you don’t defend your actions, but as a PP stated, on the Last Day you will be judged not by whether you followed your own law, but whether you followed the law of Jsus Christ.

Sin can look extremely attractive. It lures all of us in this fallen world. Each of us, including you, is capable of being deceived.

 

[holyrood]

I received some questions in private messages, and that’s okay. This topic can be really difficult to talk about.

For whom? Yourself or others on this board? I ask because I have a friend who is in an open marriage who keeps it very quiet. I, personally, do not find it at all difficult to talk about.

It is important to my marriage, to myself, and to my spiritual life that I be at peace with myself. For a long time, I tried to be the person that other people told me I ought to be… and it did not work. I’m not any good at being someone I’m not.

Is having sex outside of your marriage necessary to you to be at peace with yourself?

Foundational Bible scriptures for me include God’s statement to Moses, “I Am that I Am,” or more precisely, “I Am Becoming what I Am Becoming,” together with the scripture that God made humankind in God’s own image. It finally became clear to me that the condition of “I Am NOT Becoming what I Am” is actually a violation of my relationship with God, a dishonoring of my covenant with the Holy. This is when I decided to trust the God Who made me who I am and calls me to become all of that person, and walk into a future that is authentically my own with all the confidence I could muster.

In this and the previous post, you imply an equation between behavior and being. Do you believe that this is so? That something essential in our very core being requires us to proceed with certain behaviors? Do you believe that something inherent in your being requires you to have sex outside of your marriage? Do you believe that God Himself is calling you to have sex outside of your marriage, such that you would actually violate your relationship with God by not doing so?

When I stand in judgment before God’s throne, I intend to be fully who I am, and Nobody Else. Anything else would be Sin. Missing the Mark. I am God’s Child, and I will NOT be less than I am because it scares somebody else. I just can’t.

Are you saying that to be mongamous would be to miss a mark God set for you? That to be monogamous would be to be less than? Are you actually saying you believe it would sinful for you not to have sex outside of your marriage?

I do think it’s important, for a sincere discussion, to acknowledge that very rarely does anyone’s objection to or problem with certain behaviors (including sex outside of marriage) come from fear. I don’t think your non-monogamy scares anyone.

I hope my words don’t come across as snarky. I really am genuinely curious, in the questions I posed, as to whether this is indeed what you mean by your words.

 

[JasmineGld]

So you ask yourself how you can have a deeper relationship with God and the answer you come up with is to have sex with men other than your husband?

Not quite. I answer I come up with is to be fully and fearlessly all of who I am. In some cases, that might mean a relationship with a man other than my husband.

You talked about the Bible. There are numerous passages that condemn adultery. I didn’t find any that said that it is OK as long as your spouse knows about it and approves.

I researched these passages. Turns out, adultery in Biblical times was a property crime. A man committed adultery by violating the property (wife) of another man without his permission. Even so, I was uncomfortable with the passages. I fretted over them and worried over them and wrestled with them.

And then I finally figured out that all these Thou Shalt Not’s were simply distractions from the true spiritual work that I was doing – the Relationship with The Holy. You see, It’s not about Martha scurrying about and fussing over the preparations. It’s about Mary sitting at Jesus’s feet and listening to His words.
Luke 10:38-42

It’s about the Relationship with The Holy.

Jasmine

 

[Tampa_Rays]

you have a very bizzare interpretation of scripture. So if what I am is telling me I should kill someone I should do it? After all we should not get caught up in all do nots

Oh and new members have VERY limited PM use so I highly doubt your inbox is overflowing as you said

 

[JasmineGld]

For whom? Yourself or others on this board? I ask because I have a friend who is in an open marriage who keeps it very quiet. I, personally, do not find it at all difficult to talk about.

It is not at all unusual for people to feel uncomfortable talking about this topic, whether asking questions, answering questions, listening to answers, or listening to assessments. In making the statement about this topic being difficult to talk about, my intended purpose and my hope was to make it less difficult by acknowledging the difficulty.

Is having sex outside of your marriage necessary to you to be at peace with yourself?

I will refer you to an essay that I wrote several years ago.
ohiovalleypoly.150m.com/article-why_i_have_an_open_marriage.htm

In this and the previous post, you imply an equation between behavior and being. Do you believe that this is so? That something essential in our very core being requires us to proceed with certain behaviors? Do you believe that something inherent in your being requires you to have sex outside of your marriage? Do you believe that God Himself is calling you to have sex outside of your marriage, such that you would actually violate your relationship with God by not doing so?

I believe that God Himself is calling me to be all of who I am, and that I have do the best that I possibly can to figure out who I am and be that person fully and fearlessly. Maybe that will involve sex outside my marriage. Maybe it won’t. Always it involves possibilities. Always it involves challenges. Always it involves surprises.

Are you saying that to be mongamous would be to miss a mark God set for you? That to be monogamous would be to be less than?

Yes. I am saying this. For me to have a monogamous relationship with my husband would be to have lived in fear and denial of my true life. It’s not about the being with someone else; it’s about the understanding of the relationship between my husband and myself.

Are you actually saying you believe it would sinful for you not to have sex outside of your marriage?

No. I am not saying this at all. Sex outside my marriage is almost irrelevant. It’s not about sex. I could have sex or not; it doesn’t matter. It’s about relationship. It’s about the way I relate to my husband. It’s about the way I relate to myself. It’s about the way I view the world. It’s about the way I trust God and follow where He leads me.

I do think it’s important, for a sincere discussion, to acknowledge that very rarely does anyone’s objection to or problem with certain behaviors (including sex outside of marriage) come from fear. I don’t think your non-monogamy scares anyone.

Do you think that the truth about fear is important to this discussion? If the truth is not important, then we can let this comment slide. If the truth is important, then I will need to challenge your claims.

Perhaps I can simply say that fear – both recognized and unrecognized – is at the root of a great many objections that people have about other people for all sorts of issues. I would ask each reader to take an honest look at what about open relationships rouses fear in them.

Jasmine

 

[manualman]

Ah, I guess you are right.
They are only taking it to a further degree, I guess. Or, maybe not further, but…more unusual. But perhaps being a swinger is no worse than the others you listed above in the eyes of the Catholic church.
…
I myself don’t understand why they’d stay in the church if they don’t agree with the main beliefs. It makes no sense. And it makes it not-good for the others, yes? Unless it has become so much a part of their identity and social life, they don’t want to give that part of it up?

…Don’t pretend to be something you are not. What for?

I think the difference and the dividing line becomes that between having difficulty with a particular doctrine / belief and having a defiance about it. I know many people that just plain struggle with catholic beliefs about contraception. I don’t think it’s worth tossing them out on their ears, but rather think they should continue to struggle and listen for God to show them how His laws aren’t arbitrary, but are in fact in perfect alignment with what makes true human flourishing and loving possible versus that which is destructive to that goal.

Where the line should be drawn is when people are totally closed to God’s voice and revelation and actively involve themselves in rationalizing their sin and effectively trying to convince others that evil is good. At that point, the church does those folks no good by allowing them to delude themselves into a self conception as a “devout catholic.”

 

[holyrood]

Do you think that the truth about fear is important to this discussion? If the truth is not important, then we can let this comment slide.

If it were not important, I would not have mentioned it.

If the truth is important, then I will need to challenge your claims.

My claim was:

I do think it’s important, for a sincere discussion, to acknowledge that very rarely does anyone’s objection to or problem with certain behaviors (including sex outside of marriage) come from fear. I don’t think your non-monogamy scares anyone.

Your challenge is:

Perhaps I can simply say that fear – both recognized and unrecognized – is at the root of a great many objections that people have about other people for all sorts of issues.

My response is that it’s presumptuous to tell people what they really think and feel. I see it in dysfunctional families–certain members dismissing others’ feelings or opinions as illegitimate by simply saying that person is too foolish to actually know their own feelings and motivations. To claim that they are so wise and superior that they know better than another individual what that individual really thinks or feels or why they really act or believe as they do.

It also gives you a convenient out, to simply decide ahead of time that no one who has a different view from your own could possibly be speaking from any place of wisdom, intelligence, experience, or thoughtfulness, but to dismiss their words, before they’re ever spoken, as being provoked only by base and thoughtless fear. By doing so, you don’t have to actually think about what’s being said or examine your own stance.

Under those conditions, it is not worth my time to have a discussion in which every word I say will simply be dismissed as ‘fear’–in which I will be told I don’t actually know my own feelings and motivations–rather than having a genuine, thoughtful exchange of ideas.

It seems to me that rather than come here to discuss, you are here to tell the silly, scared Catholics the truth about life, the world, and even their own silly, scared emotions which they are too silly and scared to be able to recognize for themselves without some insight from a stranger on the internet who has never even met them.

I would ask each reader to take an honest look at what about open relationships rouses fear in them.

Exactly why the discussion becomes a waste of time. You are determined to try to force every person here into your pre-determined box. How can one answer such a question when one is *not *fearful of open relationships?

And when nobody answers that question, will you take that as evidence that we have been cowed and silenced by your superior insight calling us out on our own (supposed) fear? That we ‘can’t’ answer the question…that the lack of answer proves there is no real reason other than fear to object to open relationships?

 

[7armyrugrats]

The problem with this couple the OP was asking about is that they are very involved in their parish as well as defying Church teaching on marriage. With marriage in the news as much as it is, and with the Church speaking out so vocally on it, the last thing we need as Catholics is more reasons to be pointed at as hypocrites. They admit to sterilization, another hot button topic currently. They act and speak as if anything goes, as long as you remember to confess it (they brought up the fact that sterilizations don’t need to be reversed). This is far worse than your average Cafeteria catholic mentality.

 

[JasmineGld]

My response is that it’s presumptuous to tell people what they really think and feel.

I agree 100%. I find it by turns frustrating, amusing, and ironic when people on a message board accuse me of this sort of thing even while post after post tells me what I “really” think and feel.

I see it in dysfunctional families–certain members dismissing others’ feelings or opinions as illegitimate by simply saying that person is too foolish to actually know their own feelings and motivations. To claim that they are so wise and superior that they know better than another individual what that individual really thinks or feels or why they really act or believe as they do.

Again, I agree 100%. People in open marriages are subjected to just such dismissal of their feelings and opinions on a regular basis. Do you suppose that OP’s friends might have been subject to such dismissals in this thread?

Oh, wait – that’s not what you meant? You were referring to my comment about fears raised by open marriage? Perhaps I should cite the bases of my comment:

Message # 3

I bet you are shaking inside and out. I would be….I probably would have run away (and I don’t scare easily!)

Message # 35

: Me to except I don’t run well :crutches:

Fear: Run away!

Message # 5

Make sure you count the kids when they leave the youth group.

Message #15

Actually, I would not trust them with youth. If they already have a perverse view of sexuality (and they do), then how do you know their misconstrue does not extend to condoning sex out side of marriage for “consenting” youth (e.g. teens)?

Message # 17

I agree with the poster who wouldn’t trust them with the youth. … it is dangerous. … what are the odds that they also justify including youth in their exploits?

Message # 33

… they seriously hold and practice deviant sexual beliefs and they are involved with the youth group. …This is a safety issue.

Fear: Fear for youth at church – with no foundation.

Message # 27

…I am worried about their kids too. They claim they “misbehave” infrequently and never in the house but still. It opens your family up to danger!

Fear: Fear for the friends’ own children – with no foundation.

Message #9

What are you going to say when the Pastor confronts them…and they lie and say you’ve made this up?

Fear: Fear about their truthfulness.

Message #14

Recruiting more people in their group?

Fear: “Recruiting” – a common fear of Other.

Message # 24

If I were you I would distance myself from your “friends.” … These types of people have a way of corrupting even the best among us if not avoided at all costs.

Fear: It’s contagious! See “Recruiting.”

Message # 17

…I’d be thinking that this is serious enough of an issue for me to want actual evidence (like a taped conversation) so it’s not just he-said, she-said.

Fear: Protect against future conversations – an indication of fear. People typically don’t record conversations as evidence unless we are afraid, angry, or going to court.

Message # 17

I would be very concerned that they have another perversion in their closet that they haven’t told you about…

Message # 18

Wolves in sheep clothing???

Fear: There are worse things yet to come!

Message # 19

At the very least they are causing scandal to those who know about their lifestyle and know they are involved in church.

Message # 29

Yeah… I agree.
…your priest… has the right to know if someone is causing scandal against the church.

Message # 33

… the youth group. Need I remind you of the many horrendous scandals that have rocked the Church lately?.

Fear: Scandal.

Message # 26

Sounds like you really were blindsided…I am sorry that your friends weren’t what you had come to know them to be. It must be quite a loss for you.

Fear: Loss. My friends aren’t who I thought they were.

Message # 23

These people are delusional … Their disconnect is very disturbing.

Message # 28

Well if they are THOSE kind of people then it is really no loss at all. Living a lie isn’t healthy.

Fear: Other. aka, “THOSE people.” aka people who are different.

Message # 30

…those involved in the “swinging” scene often end up divorced. The Bible says that what will be done in secret will be announced on the house tops and what is really sad is that secrete sins like this ruin their lives as well as scandalize many more when what they are doing becomes public and blows up in their faces.

Fear: They will be harmed by their own actions. A compassionate fear.

Message # 33

It is your moral (and probably legal, but I am not a lawyer and nothing I say can or may be construed as legal advice) responsibility to talk to the appropriate authorities immediately.

Fear: Legal liability.

 

[chevalier]

Not quite. I answer I come up with is to be fully and fearlessly all of who I am. In some cases, that might mean a relationship with a man other than my husband.

I researched these passages. Turns out, adultery in Biblical times was a property crime. A man committed adultery by violating the property (wife) of another man without his permission. Even so, I was uncomfortable with the passages. I fretted over them and worried over them and wrestled with them.

And then I finally figured out that all these Thou Shalt Not’s were simply distractions from the true spiritual work that I was doing – the Relationship with The Holy. You see, It’s not about Martha scurrying about and fussing over the preparations. It’s about Mary sitting at Jesus’s feet and listening to His words.
Luke 10:38-42

It’s about the Relationship with The Holy.

Jasmine

God’s law is not a distraction from God’s love and mercy. God is coherent and His law is actually an expression of His love pretty much because God is love. It’s inconsistent to claim a better relationship with The Holy can be achieved by discarding some of the commandments The Holy gave us for our own good because He loved us.

The relationship one has with The Holy should not be confused with a desire to find oneself. Especially find oneself in some kind of abstraction, rather than relationship, with The Holy. Jesus Christ did say that who loves Him follows His commandments. That was not because He wanted to put some distractions on our way to Him.

 

[JasmineGld]

My response is that it’s presumptuous to tell people what they really think and feel. … It also gives you a convenient out, to simply decide ahead of time … to dismiss their words, before they’re ever spoken,

As you see from the quotes in my previous post, I didn’t decide “ahead of time” before words were spoken. I read the words actually posted in this thread.

…in which I will be told I don’t actually know my own feelings and motivations–rather than having a genuine, thoughtful exchange of ideas.

I am confused. I don’t recall telling you, holyrood, in specific, that any of your specific words, feelings or motivations were based in fear or that you didn’t actually know them. I recall making general statements that it can be a scary topic and that it can rouse fears. I know this in general from personal experience over the past 15 or so years. My intention was to be reassuring. I am sorry that my effort failed.

I asked each reader to take an honest look at what about open relationships rouses fear in them. No doubt, I should have said “rouses fear, if any” to be more precise. Precision is often a casualty of these message boards, I have noticed.

And when nobody answers that question

Oh my goodness! No one was ever supposed to answer such a personal and invasive question about fears on a public thread! I posed the question only as a personal reflection. I do apologize if that was unclear.

…you are here to tell the silly, scared Catholics…

The topic of open marriage can be difficult and scary for all sorts of people, and there is nothing silly about it. It is difficult for Protestants and Pagans and atheists and agnostics and people in my own UU church and more. I can’t think of any reason that Catholics would find it any easier than the rest of us.

I am utterly confused about why this has become a point of contention. If no one here is afraid of anything about the topic, then why is there so much fearful talk in the various posts? If there is so much fearful talk in the posts, why is there such need to deny that the topic can be scary to some people?

And why would anyone dismiss fear as “silly?”

…base and thoughtless fear.

This is a misrepresentation of my words. Fear is a natural, powerful, God-given instinct that can, if properly used, protect us from harm. Fear in itself is not a “bad” thing as the words “base and thoughtless” seem to imply. Fear is, however, instinctual in its inception. As thinking humans, we have a responsibility to recognize our fears, examine them, seek to understand them, evaluate them, listen to the lessons they have to teach us.

The fear that someone’s actions will cause them harm is a compassionate fear; a Love Thy Neighbor fear. The fear that “if they did this, they’ll do worse” is a wall-building fear. I don’t see any compassion in this fear; nor do I see any Love Thy Neighbor in it.

The act of saying “I’m afraid” is a courageous act of admitting truth. It takes many of us decades to learn it. There is nothing silly about it.

that no one who has a different view from your own could possibly be speaking from any place of wisdom, intelligence, experience, or thoughtfulness…

On the contrary. I did read some wisdom among the many posts. If I had not seen the wisdom, I would have simply moved on, and I never would have spoken up here at all.

Jasmine

 

[silentfactor80]

I think everyone has been helpful here and now may be a good time to call a draw here. I am going to pray on this and do what’s right. Curtain please

 

[JasmineGld]

God’s law is not a distraction from God’s love and mercy. God is coherent and His law is actually an expression of His love pretty much because God is love. It’s inconsistent to claim a better relationship with The Holy can be achieved by discarding some of the commandments The Holy gave us for our own good because He loved us.

And I wrestled 'round and 'round and 'round with all these ideas and many, many more. I kept bumping up against insurmountable problems. Things like prohibitions against shellfish and pork. Things like women being forbidden from attending worship during their “time of the month.” Things like commandments to inflict capital punishment for specific moral infractions. The majority of Christians have decided to discard those commandments without ever looking back. What makes those commandments disposable, while others are sacrosanct?

I moved to a place of wanting to understand the commandments and other Scripture more fully in terms of their history and culture and translation. I don’t claim that I have achieved this understanding in any deep, scholarly way. I have made a few steps in that direction.

The relationship one has with The Holy should not be confused with a desire to find oneself. Especially find oneself in some kind of abstraction, rather than relationship, with The Holy. Jesus Christ did say that who loves Him follows His commandments. That was not because He wanted to put some distractions on our way to Him.

I will point again to Mary and Martha. And to Peter and the Beloved Disciple in John 21. And to Jesus’s answer about the Greatest Commandment.

It’s about the Relationship.

Jasmine