Open Thread for the Synod on the Family

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We know at some point that the Church must face severe persecution and trial. It would appear on the surface, that the gates have prevailed in that scenario. I suppose the trust comes in believing that God will raise it up again. So maybe the Church is not invincible, it can be defeated on earth, just as Jesus was killed. But God will raise it up.

Like you, I have been thinking of what the gates not prevailing might mean. The gates not prevailing wont stop persecution, nor does it indicate preventing the Church from changing. There might be more to that passage than what was once thought.
Call me a cynic, but I have always kind of shuddered a little when I heard Catholics so confidently proclaim that. There is a certain poignancy to it. I don’t think truth will ever fall, and you will always have the love, light and guidance of the Holy Trinity, the Bible, and the Virgin Mary, but I believe the worldly Church could well lose its way. I’ve seen it stumble too many times this way and that. Who knows what will happen here. I am actually very thankful we can at least cry together on this Forum! 🙂 And I do suspect we could be collectively panicking. Let’s wait and see. But not be blind either.
 
Call me a cynic, but I have always kind of shuddered a little when I heard Catholics so confidently proclaim that. There is a certain poignancy to it. I don’t think truth will ever fall, and you will always have the love, light and guidance of the Holy Trinity, the Bible, and the Virgin Mary, but I believe the worldly Church could well lose its way. I’ve seen it stumble too many times this way and that. Who knows what will happen here. I am actually very thankful we can at least cry together on this Forum! 🙂 And I do suspect we could be collectively panicking. Let’s wait and see. But not be blind either.
I am not panicking since nothing has been decided yet. I must admit that the thought of the Church changing is a scary one though. The potential confusion in the future might serve only to weaken my already weak faith, but trying to trust in God, knowing that even if the Church on earth is nearly decimated, that He will bring it back in one way or another… either on earth once again or in spirit. I’ll just leave it in His hands. That thought warms me a bit and I can catch my breath for a moment once again.
 
I’m not able to watch it, but Crux has a video panel with Card Pell and Card Dolan talking about the Synod:

cruxnow.com/church/2014/10/08/special-event-synod-pope-francis-dolan-pell/

If anyone else can watch it, please post an update on what they say.
It’s an hour and twenty minutes long. :eek:

Skimming through it, the Q&A session starts around 53:00 minutes. That’s probably going to yield the most commentary regarding the synod. Cardinal Pell’s and Cardinal Dolan’s individual talks don’t appear to talk about the synod directly. But I’m only skimming through it quickly.
 
ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/Vatican.php?id=10908

Cardinal Ouellet: expect pastoral, not doctrinal changes

Vatican City, Oct 8, 2014

The prefect of the Congregation of Bishops, Cardinal Marc Ouellet, emphasized that Church doctrine will not change as a result of the Synod on the Family taking place at the Vatican.

At the same time, he said, certain pastoral practices should change, including marriage preparation and a focus on the beauty of the sacrament of marriage.

“There should not be any expectation of doctrinal changes, and this has been repeated frequently,” he told EWTN News Oct. 6. “There should be some pastoral changes in the way we help families and young people prepare for marriage.”

Better preparation for marriage is needed, the cardinal said. “If two or three years of novitiate are required to enter the consecrated life, the same should apply to marriage, which should not be improvised. This needs to be further developed.”

Cardinal Ouellet said the theme of his address during the synod was the covenant between spouses and God described in the Bible. “There are three people in a marriage, not just two, because by putting Christ at the center, a marriage is more likely to succeed.”

“I have tried to insist on the covenant,” he said. “In the Bible, covenant is essential. The people of God live in covenant with God, with a personal God, and spouses are called to live in covenant with Christ. This was my very simple message.”

The Canadian cardinal also expressed his hopes for the Synod. I think we will find better pastoral approaches to respond to the situation of families and to encourage those who are doing well to bear witness more each day, to not hide the beauty of marriage and the family and at the same time to be close those who suffer the most.”
 
We know at some point that the Church must face severe persecution and trial. It would appear on the surface, that the gates have prevailed in that scenario. I suppose the trust comes in believing that God will raise it up again. So maybe the Church is not invincible, it can be defeated on earth, just as Jesus was killed. But God will raise it up.

Like you, I have been thinking of what the gates not prevailing might mean. The gates not prevailing wont stop persecution, nor does it indicate preventing the Church from changing. There might be more to that passage than what was once thought.
I think we can be 100% confident when Christ’s says that the gates of hell will never prevail against the Church, that he means the gates of hell will never prevail against the Church militant or triumphant. They are two sides of the one coin.

What perturbs me is the notion that that the church can be, in your own words, “defeated on earth” and that it is “not invincible”.

The sedevacantists and SSPX say things very similar to this to excuse their small groups state of schism from the Church. :o The irony being that in their zealousness to defend what they see to be the purity of the faith, they have forced themselves into exile from the ark of salvation.
 
I think we can be 100% confident when Christ’s says that the gates of hell will never prevail against the Church, that he means the gates of hell will never prevail against the Church militant or triumphant. They are two sides of the one coin.

What perturbs me is the notion that that the church can be, in your own words, “defeated on earth” and that it is “not invincible”.

The sedevacantists and SSPX say things very similar to this to excuse their small groups state of schism from the Church. :o The irony being that in their zealousness to defend what they see to be the purity of the faith, they have forced themselves into exile from the ark of salvation.
You do realize that it is written in the CCC that the Church will follow in Christ’s passion and Resurrection, dont you?

If Jesus was able to be killed on earth, so too can the Church. If you believe that the Church is invincible on earth, then I bring to your attention the destruction of it in the Middle East and to some of its past failures. It is not imperishable, but in the end it will triumph regardless. That is Christ’s true promise, as I am coming to realize.
 
They don’t mean near as much as most modern Catholics, in thrall to neo-Ultramontanism, believe. “The Holy Spirit protects the Church” – from the formal teaching of doctrinal error. It does not protect her from confusion, ambiguity, uncertainty, predation, etc. It does not protect her from the *disregard *of doctrine or the promulgation of error or nonsense under guises other than formal doctrine, which is prevalent today (and which is certainly a fruit of the Devil).

“The gates of Hell will not prevail” against the Church, i.e., the Church is imperishable – a condition which is technically satisfied so long as there exists at least one living Catholic who is a bishop with ordinary jurisdiction. It does not mean that the Church will continue to exist in any particular nation or region or period of time, that it cannot be reduced to total powerlessness, that souls cannot be lost by the billions, etc.

Christ’s promises to the Church were very narrow, because Christ respects human freedom and our capacity to choose the good freely. That’s what it means to say that God loves us – he loves us as we are, as moral agents with free will and responsibility and the capacity to reciprocate his love or to reject it. People think those promises mean that the Church can do no wrong. But the Church *has *done wrong in the past – a lot more wrong than this. What in the world makes anyone think that the Renaissance 2.0 cannot happen?
:clapping::clapping::clapping:
 
You do realize that it is written in the CCC that the Church will follow in Christ’s passion and Resurrection, dont you?

If Jesus was able to be killed on earth, so too can the Church. If you believe that the Church is invincible on earth, then I bring to your attention the destruction of it in the Middle East and to some of its past failures. It is not imperishable, but in the end it will triumph regardless. That is Christ’s true promise, as I am coming to realize.
I wasn’t referring to physical loss of territory, churches or even believers but rather its TEACHINGS. The Church can never teach error, is what I am saying. In that sense, no matter its fortunes, it will be “invincible” to the changes of times and aeons. 🙂
 
More thoughts:
Cardinal Kaspar’s Challenge Distracts from the Real Problem
…yet as currently framed, the debate over Cardinal Kasper’s proposals stunningly misses the point. By casting the debate in terms of admitting divorced and remarried persons to communion, the Church appears determined once again to avoid confronting the central evil of the Divorce Revolution, the evil that still taints the Church, along with the family and civic life, and one no stable civilization can tolerate. This is involuntary divorce and the injustice committed against the forcibly divorced or innocent spouse, along with his or her children.
The Cardinal makes no distinction between a spouse who abandons the marriage, commits adultery, divorces unilaterally without recognized grounds (“no-fault”), or otherwise violates the marriage covenant in legally recognized ways, and a spouse who is the victim of such deeds. To treat the sinner and the sinned against as if they are the same is to deny the very concept of justice and to place the Church and other institutions on the side of injustice.
 
visnews-en.blogspot.com/2014/10/sixth-general-congregation-church-is.html?m=1

Thursday, October 9, 2014

Sixth General Congregation: the Church is the house of the Father, not a customs office, and must not be indifferent to weakness

Vatican City, 9 October 2014 (VIS) – During the Sixth General Congregation, which took place yesterday afternoon, the Synod Fathers continued their debate on the theme set forth in the Instrumentum Laboris: “Difficult pastoral situations (Part II, Chapter 3). Situations in Families / Concerning Unions of Persons of the Same Sex”.

Firstly, it was underlined that the Church is not a customs house, but rather the house of the Father, and must therefore offer patient accompaniment to all people, including those who find themselves in difficult pastoral situations. The true Catholic Church encompasses healthy families and families in crisis, and therefore in her daily effort of sanctification must not show indifference in relation to weakness, as patience implies actively helping the weakest.

With regard to processes for the declaration of nullity of marriage, in general the need to streamline the procedures was observed by many (along with the need to integrate more competent laypersons in the ecclesiastical Tribunals), but the Assembly also noted the danger of superficiality and the need always to safeguard respect for the truth and the rights of the parties. It was also remarked that the process is not contrary to pastoral charity, and judicial pastoral must avoid attempts to apportion blame, instead encouraging a calm discussion of cases. Again with regard to marriage nullity, the hypothesis of recourse to administrative channels, not in lieu of the judicial process but rather as a complement to it, was considered. It was suggested that it would be the responsibility of the bishop to decide which requests for nullity could be dealt with through administrative channels.

It was strongly emphasised that an attitude of respect must be adopted in relation to divorced and remarried persons, as they often live in situations of unease or social injustice, suffer in silence and in many cases seek a gradual path to fuller participation in ecclesial life. Pastoral care must not therefore be repressive, but full of mercy.

With regard to polygamy, on the one hand it was underlined that this is a diminishing tendency as it is favoured mostly within rural contexts and therefore undermined by advancing urbanisation; on the other, it was recalled that there are polygamists who have converted to Catholicism and who wish to receive the sacraments of Christian initiation, and it was asked if there are specific pastoral measures to engage with these situations with the appropriate discernment.

Attention returned to the need for greater preparation for marriage, especially among the young, to whom the beauty of sacramental union must be presented, along with an adequate emotional education that is not merely a moralistic exhortation that risks generating a sort of religious and human illiteracy. The path to marriage must involve a true growth of the person.

During the hour of free discussion – between 6 and 7 p.m. – the interventions presented experiences and practical models for the pastoral care of divorced and remarried persons, making extensive use of listening groups. It was remarked that it is important to carefully avoid moral judgement or speaking of a “permanent state of sin”, seeking instead to enable understanding that not being admitted to the sacrament of the Eucharist does not entirely eliminate the possibility of grace in Christ and is due rather to the objective situation of remaining bound by a previous and indissoluble sacramental bond. In this respect, the importance of spiritual communion was emphasised repeatedly. It was also commented that there are evident limits to these proposals and that certainly there are no “easy” solutions to the problem.

Also in relation to the pastoral care of homosexual persons, emphasis was placed on the importance of listening and the use of listening groups.

Further interventions focused on the issue of Catholics who change Christian confession, or vice versa, with the difficult consequences that may arise from inter-confessional marriages and the validation of their validity in the light of the possibilities of divorce in the Orthodox Churches.

Recalling the Ordinary Synod held in 1980 on the theme of “The Christian family”, it was observed that great evolution has occurred since then in international legal culture and it is therefore necessary for the Church to be aware of this, and for cultural institutions such as the Catholic Universities to face this situation in order to retain a role in ongoing debate.
VISarchive 02 - Thursday, October 09, 2014
 
visnews-en.blogspot.com/2014/10/seventh-general-congregation-pastoral.html?m=1

Thursday, October 9, 2014

Sixth General Congregation: the Church is the house of the Father, not a customs office, and must not be indifferent to weakness

Vatican City, 9 October 2014 (VIS) – During the Sixth General Congregation, which took place yesterday afternoon, the Synod Fathers continued their debate on the theme set forth in the Instrumentum Laboris: “Difficult pastoral situations (Part II, Chapter 3). Situations in Families / Concerning Unions of Persons of the Same Sex”.

Firstly, it was underlined that the Church is not a customs house, but rather the house of the Father, and must therefore offer patient accompaniment to all people, including those who find themselves in difficult pastoral situations. The true Catholic Church encompasses healthy families and families in crisis, and therefore in her daily effort of sanctification must not show indifference in relation to weakness, as patience implies actively helping the weakest.

With regard to processes for the declaration of nullity of marriage, in general the need to streamline the procedures was observed by many (along with the need to integrate more competent laypersons in the ecclesiastical Tribunals), but the Assembly also noted the danger of superficiality and the need always to safeguard respect for the truth and the rights of the parties. It was also remarked that the process is not contrary to pastoral charity, and judicial pastoral must avoid attempts to apportion blame, instead encouraging a calm discussion of cases. Again with regard to marriage nullity, the hypothesis of recourse to administrative channels, not in lieu of the judicial process but rather as a complement to it, was considered. It was suggested that it would be the responsibility of the bishop to decide which requests for nullity could be dealt with through administrative channels.

It was strongly emphasised that an attitude of respect must be adopted in relation to divorced and remarried persons, as they often live in situations of unease or social injustice, suffer in silence and in many cases seek a gradual path to fuller participation in ecclesial life. Pastoral care must not therefore be repressive, but full of mercy.

With regard to polygamy, on the one hand it was underlined that this is a diminishing tendency as it is favoured mostly within rural contexts and therefore undermined by advancing urbanisation; on the other, it was recalled that there are polygamists who have converted to Catholicism and who wish to receive the sacraments of Christian initiation, and it was asked if there are specific pastoral measures to engage with these situations with the appropriate discernment.

Attention returned to the need for greater preparation for marriage, especially among the young, to whom the beauty of sacramental union must be presented, along with an adequate emotional education that is not merely a moralistic exhortation that risks generating a sort of religious and human illiteracy. The path to marriage must involve a true growth of the person.

During the hour of free discussion – between 6 and 7 p.m. – the interventions presented experiences and practical models for the pastoral care of divorced and remarried persons, making extensive use of listening groups. It was remarked that it is important to carefully avoid moral judgement or speaking of a “permanent state of sin”, seeking instead to enable understanding that not being admitted to the sacrament of the Eucharist does not entirely eliminate the possibility of grace in Christ and is due rather to the objective situation of remaining bound by a previous and indissoluble sacramental bond. In this respect, the importance of spiritual communion was emphasised repeatedly. It was also commented that there are evident limits to these proposals and that certainly there are no “easy” solutions to the problem.

Also in relation to the pastoral care of homosexual persons, emphasis was placed on the importance of listening and the use of listening groups.

Further interventions focused on the issue of Catholics who change Christian confession, or vice versa, with the difficult consequences that may arise from inter-confessional marriages and the validation of their validity in the light of the possibilities of divorce in the Orthodox Churches.

Recalling the Ordinary Synod held in 1980 on the theme of “The Christian family”, it was observed that great evolution has occurred since then in international legal culture and it is therefore necessary for the Church to be aware of this, and for cultural institutions such as the Catholic Universities to face this situation in order to retain a role in ongoing debate.
VISarchive 02 - Thursday, October 09, 2014
 
I presume you’ve read some of the comments underneath it?

It looks like they expected something else?
It seems so. Why stay if you can’t take Communion, it’s only for the perfect, etc. people just don’t understand these issues and the theology behind them.
 
It seems so. Why stay if you can’t take Communion, it’s only for the perfect, etc. people just don’t understand these issues and the theology behind them.
uuugh! So much for the concept of turning away from sin, eh??
 
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