Open Thread on Zimmerman Trial

[SwizzleStick]

Soothsayers and sorcerers.

You cannot reasonably predict what the injuries from a beating will look like.

My boss dropped a 20 pound computer on her foot. An hour later there was no indication that she had hurt it. 5 days later her entire foot is purple and swollen.

That an injury does not appear to be what you expect it should have looked like says more of your lack of knowledge of the event and the injury then it does the injury itself.

I agree with this. Someone can be hit in the head and appear perfectly fine yet have a fatal brain bleed. The duration of a beating doesn’t matter either. One second, one blow is enough to be fatal.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Why didnt he pull the gun first and tell Martin to stop if he were truly trying to hold or stop him? …

• Illegally brandishing a weapon
• Unlawful detention/kidnapping (depending on how the prosecutor views it)
• Some jurisdictions define this as a type of assault

There are probably some other charges I’m missing here… not to mention that someone pointing a weapon at someone else without justification would certainly put you in fear of serious bodily harm for whatever actions you take against them.

 

[vz71]

I was just providing those of Zimmerman since you mentioned those of Trayvon.

Well, if someone (and I don’t care how big or small the person is) got on top of me and is punching me, I will fight back. I will use the 2 hands I have to punch him in return. Like the ground-and-pound thing one witness said: “The person on top being able to punch the person on the bottom, but the person on the bottom also has a chance to get out or punch the person on top. It’s back and forth,” John Good.

What we can or would be able to do in a real fight very often differs from what we imagine we could or would do.

And it is a poor judge that would hold the reality of the testimony against their imagination.

 

[MaryT777]

That happens every day in many places with concealed carry and it isn’t dangerous or deadly in most cases.

Hopefully in most cases someone isn’t following around a suspicious looking person
when told not to. This is not “most cases” Someone is dead.

 

[SwizzleStick]

Hopefully in most cases someone isn’t following around a suspicious looking person
when told not to. This is not “most cases” Someone is dead.

Zimmerman indicated he stopped following when he was told to do so. Did he? I don’t know, but that is what he said.

 

[vz71]

I certainly agree; but one would think one would seek immediate care if their head was repeatedly slammed against the cement. Most people are aware that can cause serious injuries you can’t necessarily “see”.

Perhaps, but I can certainly understand the decision.

A computer drop is a lot different situation and not remotely an analogy.

Depends on what you are analogizing.
The computer drop is an example of an injury not appearing serious until much later.
In any case, the poster was using pictures taken an hour after the incident to attempt to indicate the injuries as not serious. The logic is flawed.

 

[LisaA]

Hopefully in most cases someone isn’t following around a suspicious looking person
when told not to. This is not “most cases” Someone is dead.

Again, Mary, we don’t know and the testimony indicates Zimmerman wasn’t 'following him around." The way you make it sound, Zimmerman was stalking Martin and there is no evidence that was the case. Zimmerman said he was trying to get the address which according to a neighbor was not obvious. Maybe he should have driven to get the address instead of going out and looking for a sign. But a lot of what if’ing is going on that doesn’t comport with the testimony.

Do you REALLY think if Martin were not black it would be such a cause celebre? I don’t. It looks like a deadly combination of events that resulted in a tragedy for the Martin family and frankly the Zimmerman family. As many have noted, the threats, the hatespeech, the violence promoted against the Martin family are just way out of line for what appears to be justified shooting.

Lisa

 

[MaryT777]

Zimmerman indicated he stopped following when he was told to do so. Did he? I don’t know, but that is what he said.

I don’t know either. The eyewitness accounts are contradictory. There were only two people there and one is dead

I wouldn’t want to be followed myself. But then maybe other don’t mind. I do.

 

[SwizzleStick]

I don’t know either. The eyewitness accounts are contradictory. There were only two people there and one is dead

I wouldn’t want to be followed myself. But then maybe other don’t mind. I do.

Again, Zimmerman said he stopped following when told to do so.

 

[vz71]

I don’t know either. The eyewitness accounts are contradictory. There were only two people there and one is dead

I wouldn’t want to be followed myself. But then maybe other don’t mind. I do.

If there were only two people there, then how many eyewitness acvounts can their possibly be?

Are you sure you are familiar with the case?

 

[MaryT777]

Again, Mary, we don’t know and the testimony indicates Zimmerman wasn’t 'following him around." The way you make it sound, Zimmerman was stalking Martin and there is no evidence that was the case. Zimmerman said he was trying to get the address which according to a neighbor was not obvious. Maybe he should have driven to get the address instead of going out and looking for a sign. But a lot of what if’ing is going on that doesn’t comport with the testimony.

Do you REALLY think if Martin were not black it would be such a cause celebre? I don’t. It looks like a deadly combination of events that resulted in a tragedy for the Martin family and frankly the Zimmerman family. As many have noted, the threats, the hatespeech, the violence promoted against the Martin family are just way out of line for what appears to be justified shooting.

Lisa

Well the 911 tape states
911 Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yea

So yes he was following him.

 

[kelvinf]

Soothsayers and sorcerers.

You cannot reasonably predict what the injuries from a beating will look like.

My boss dropped a 20 pound computer on her foot. An hour later there was no indication that she had hurt it. 5 days later her entire foot is purple and swollen.

That an injury does not appear to be what you expect it should have looked like says more of your lack of knowledge of the event and the injury then it does the injury itself.

I agree with this. Someone can be hit in the head and appear perfectly fine yet have a fatal brain bleed. The duration of a beating doesn’t matter either. One second, one blow is enough to be fatal.

Someone who was being beaten so badly that he felt like his head was going to explode wouldn’t have refused to go to a doctor and do an X-ray.

 

[kelvinf]

Again, Mary, we don’t know and the testimony indicates Zimmerman wasn’t 'following him around." The way you make it sound, Zimmerman was stalking Martin and there is no evidence that was the case. Zimmerman said he was trying to get the address which according to a neighbor was not obvious. Maybe he should have driven to get the address instead of going out and looking for a sign. But a lot of what if’ing is going on that doesn’t comport with the testimony.

Do you REALLY think if Martin were not black it would be such a cause celebre? I don’t. It looks like a deadly combination of events that resulted in a tragedy for the Martin family and frankly the Zimmerman family. As many have noted, the threats, the hatespeech, the violence promoted against the Martin family are just way out of line for what appears to be justified shooting.

Lisa

You need to check out the Serino interview. Zimmerman has changed his story about following Martin or going to get an address.
Or check out the exclusive interview with Fox News.

 

[kelvinf]

If there were only two people there, then how many eyewitness acvounts can their possibly be?

Are you sure you are familiar with the case?

I think it’s obvious she meant on the scene. Or how many people were there for you?

 

[MaryT777]

You need to check out the Serino interview. Zimmerman has changed his story about following Martin or going to get an address.
Or check out the exclusive interview with Fox News.

He did. The police report was changed 4x and downgraded from 2nd degree murder to manslaughter before the prosecution received it.

 

[MaryT777]

I think it’s obvious she meant on the scene. Or how many people were there for you?

Yes, on the scene. I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear.
Two people were on the scene and one is now dead.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Someone who was being beaten so badly that he felt like his head was going to explode wouldn’t have refused to go to a doctor and do an X-ray.

I have several friends who are paramedics/firefighters, they all have stories of folks who were hurt very badly insisting on not going to the hospital. Athletes often injure themselves and yet play through the pain. It is very hard to predict what someone may do-- particularly with a blow to the head after a huge adrenalin dump. Note, Zimmerman was very cooperative with the police and may have been more intent/anxious about talking through his experience than with his physical condition. He even underwent two lie detector test by voice stress analyzer (an aside IHMO, never agree to take a lie detector test if your liberty is at stake. They are notoriously inaccurate and the operator normally decides how you’ll do prior to starting. antipolygraph.org).

But I do think the jury will consider Z’s declining to go to the hospital in making their decision.

 

[kelvinf]

Well, hopefully you get the advantage like Martin and manage to get on top. They have the advantage, which is why the UFC fighters try to do that. If Zimmerman attacked Martin, than it’s perfectly reasonable for him to get into that position, if he can, and continue punching Z until he thinks Z is no longer a threat. Hard to figure out when that point is reached. When do you give up your advantage if you truly believe your life is in danger?

Under CA law, if Z had stopped struggling and loudly declared I give up, Martin would have then legally become the aggressor. That is, no longer in fear of serious bodily harm. Tough situation to be in- how do you know they’ve really given up? Won’t start again if you give up your advantage?

I don’t have a problem with Martin’s actions if Zimmerman started the actual fight. But that’s the real problem for the prosecution-- proving that point beyond a reasonable doubt. How did it get physical, who was really the aggressor? We’ll never be sure if the jury’s verdict is the correct answer - only whether it’s the correct legal answer given the evidence they are presented.

You don’t necessarily need to be on top. John Good’s explanation of what he meant by ground-and-pound was a very good testimony.

We know for sure that this ordeal lasted at least 44 seconds and Zimmerman didn’t fight back. I don’t buy his story.

 

[MaryT777]

I have several friends who are paramedics/firefighters, they all have stories of folks who were hurt very badly insisting on not going to the hospital. Athletes often injure themselves and yet play through the pain. It is very hard to predict what someone may do-- particularly with a blow to the head after a huge adrenalin dump. Note, Zimmerman was very cooperative with the police and may have been more intent/anxious about talking through his experience than with his physical condition. He even underwent two lie detector test by voice stress analyzer (an aside IHMO, never agree to take a lie detector test if your liberty is at stake. They are notoriously inaccurate and the operator normally decides how you’ll do prior to starting. antipolygraph.org).

But I do think the jury will consider Z’s declining to go to the hospital in making their decision.

Hard to say. I might think personally that if one was so injured they had to kill someone they might need to be evaluated in a hospital. This really wasn’t an athlete. This was an
injury so bad that someone feared for their life.

My second thought is you might be not just injured but shaken up by the entire issue.

Those are personal opinions of course.

 

[kelvinf]

I have several friends who are paramedics/firefighters, they all have stories of folks who were hurt very badly insisting on not going to the hospital. Athletes often injure themselves and yet play through the pain. It is very hard to predict what someone may do-- particularly with a blow to the head after a huge adrenalin dump. Note, Zimmerman was very cooperative with the police and may have been more intent/anxious about talking through his experience than with his physical condition. He even underwent two lie detector test by voice stress analyzer (an aside IHMO, never agree to take a lie detector test if your liberty is at stake. They are notoriously inaccurate and the operator normally decides how you’ll do prior to starting. antipolygraph.org).

But I do think the jury will consider Z’s declining to go to the hospital in making their decision.

If someone has an injury and doesn’t go to a doctor and everything goes on well thereafter, then fine. But if they later die because of the injury, I am sure someone would be charged with negligence.

I believe Z’s injuries will play a role in this case.