Open Thread on Zimmerman Trial

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The question is does the defense even need to present their case?
To clear up a few misrepresentations, like, Zimmerman disobeyed a “clear order” from a 911 operator to return to his car. Or that Zimmerman is racist because he identified Trayvon as black when questioned about the race of the suspect by a 911 operator. Or that Zimmerman is racist because he said “f***ing punks.”

🤷🤷🤷
 
Zimmerman carried a gun and was in a car when he saw the victim. He chose to remove himself from his car and ultimately met up with T. Martin who was walking in his neighborhood. T. Martin was 17 years old, talking on his cell phone and told his phone partner that a man was following him. Zimmerman is an adult man with training as a neighborhood watch person that did not follow his instructions to avoid confrontation.
Zimmerman fatally shoots T. Martin causing his death. I rest my case. Zimmerman- guilty!
 
Zimmerman carried a gun and was in a car when he saw the victim. He chose to remove himself from his car and ultimately met up with T. Martin who was walking in his neighborhood. T. Martin was 17 years old, talking on his cell phone and told his phone partner that a man was following him. Zimmerman is an adult man with training as a neighborhood watch person that did not follow his instructions to avoid confrontation.
Zimmerman fatally shoots T. Martin causing his death. I rest my case. Zimmerman- guilty!
Facts not in evidence…😛

EDIT: Sorry that should be Objection…speculation.
 
Zimmerman carried a gun and was in a car when he saw the victim. He chose to remove himself from his car and ultimately met up with T. Martin who was walking in his neighborhood. T. Martin was 17 years old, talking on his cell phone and told his phone partner that a man was following him. Zimmerman is an adult man with training as a neighborhood watch person that did not follow his instructions to avoid confrontation.
Zimmerman fatally shoots T. Martin causing his death. I rest my case. Zimmerman- guilty!
From his and the dispatcher’s testimony, Z got out of his truck to provide the additional information the dispatcher was requesting. He stopped following Martin when told to do so. The police dept’s NW coordinator testified that nothing they told the watch members was intended to preclude following from a safe distance.

from statelymcdanielmanor.com (which has had very good legal/technical analysis)::

"In the videotaped interview, Serino and Singleton (eta: the police officers) questioned Zimmerman aggressively. At one point. Serino demanded to know why Zimmerman didn’t confront Martin and demand to know what he was doing. Zimmerman replied: “I didn’t want to confront him.” Zimmerman would continue with this response, which was entirely in character with his mild, even meek behavior. It’s also significant in that proponents of The Narrative have long demanded to know the same thing, while simultaneously seeking to portray Zimmerman as a vicious, raging brute. Anyone watching the videos and listening to Zimmerman’s responses in other interviews will be unable to buy The Narrative, at least in that respect.

When Serino suggested that perhaps Martin feared Zimmerman, Zimmerman explained that Martin approached and circled his truck: “…when he walked up to my car, he put his hand in his waistband and held it there.” Zimmerman explained that he didn’t speak with Martin in part because he was sitting in his truck, it was raining, and Martin keep a distance of about one car length, but also: “I guess fear; I didn’t want to confront him.” …

… He noted that in response to Serino’s questions on that topic, Zimmerman told him he didn’t confront Martin because “that wasn’t my job,” which undercuts the prosecution strategy of an out-of-control cop wannabe taking the law into his hands. Serino admitted that answer satisfied him. "

He chose not to confront Martin when he approached the truck, which would have seemed to be a fairly opportune time to do so.

One thing that has struck me as interesting is the fact that Zimmerman fired only one round. Police usually fire several. The legal rule is lethal force can be used while the threat of serious bodily harm is imminent but ceases to be legal when the threat stops. The police often shoot people in the back because of the time delay between observing a person who is shooting at them turning away and deciding to stop firing because the threat has ceased. (forcescience.org/demos.html) It’s rare for someone to fire just one round when their life is in danger. Inconsistent for someone eager to kill as well. Is it indicative of Zimmerman not really being in fear of his life when he fired? Or is it indicative of Zimmerman’s reluctance to commit to killing to save his life? Or is it indicative of such an immediate and obvious cessation of action by Martin and presence of mind by Z in assessing and reacting to it?

"Singleton (first police interviewer) testified:
Singleton: “I had a silver cross on and he asked me if I was Catholic. I said, ‘No. I’m Christian. Why are you asking?’”

Zimmerman replied that he noticed a silver cross she was wearing and said it’s “always wrong to kill” someone.

Singleton replied: “if what you’re telling me is true then I don’t think that’s what God meant–you couldn’t save your own life.”

She testified that Zimmerman, who appeared to be shocked, said: “he’s dead?”

She replied: “I thought you knew that.’ "
 
Facts not in evidence…😛

EDIT: Sorry that should be Objection…speculation.
Well, most of the facts are in evidence (Z was in his truck, Z did have a gun, Z did get out of his truck, Z did fatally shoot Martin, M was 17 yrs old, M was on phone). Just an awful lot of facts that aren’t in the statement or accounted for…
 
Well, most of the facts are in evidence (Z was in his truck, Z did have a gun, Z did get out of his truck, Z did fatally shoot Martin, M was 17 yrs old, M was on phone). Just an awful lot of facts that aren’t in the statement or accounted for…
Precisely. The skeleton facts are there, and at the least they point to probably poor judgment, poor decision making, which can be attributed to Z, including disregard of the advice of authority.

However, what is missing is a lot in between, including possibly indicated provocations by Martin during the entire episode (not initially, but during). This is why I continue to maintain that with such a case the charge of Murder is an overcharge. The prosecution is supposed to ascertain the criminal charge after evaluating the facts, not before. They had a way better chance of a Guilty verdict with a Manslaughter charge, which importantly would also not have prevented the Martin family from a civil suit for Wrongful Death.
 
Are you a voice analyst expert? Interesting take and it was so “clear” to you.
You don’t seem to understand the way jury trials work in this country. Juries are not asked to be experts. I have the same expertise the jury is asked to have, because regardless of whatever experts either side will call (for voice analysis), juries are never required to accept as fact the opinion of a so-named “expert.” They are free to disregard all professional witness testimony if they deem that appropriate, particularly if personal life experience contradicts such testimony and makes it not credible.

Repeat: Yes, it’s clear to me.

Have a nice day.
 
Precisely. The skeleton facts are there, and at the least they point to probably poor judgment, poor decision making, which can be attributed to Z, including disregard of the advice of authority.

However, what is missing is a lot in between, including possibly indicated provocations by Martin during the entire episode (not initially, but during). This is why I continue to maintain that with such a case the charge of Murder is an overcharge. The prosecution is supposed to ascertain the criminal charge after evaluating the facts, not before. They had a way better chance of a Guilty verdict with a Manslaughter charge, which importantly would also not have prevented the Martin family from a civil suit for Wrongful Death.
Yes, very poor decision making by Zimmerman to become involved in a neighborhood watch program. To act on his concern for his neighbors and take initiative to help others. As I’ve said before, everyone here has certainly convinced me that is a mistake I will never make. Pretty sure that HOA will never set one up again.

I think a manslaughter conviction declares the person liable and the civil suit simply becomes a question of the amount to be awarded.

However, unless you could get Zimmerman to state something along the lines of he unintentionally fired the shot, the case would still have the problem of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that this was not self-defense.
 
He is brave?

Singleton: Um, I still, I still don’t understand, when he walked up to your car, why didn’t you say anything to him?
Zimmerman: I guess fear. I didn’t want to confront him. He seemed…
Singleton: You were afraid of him?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.

Serino: At that point you’re out of the car?
Zimmerman: I think so.
Serino: OK, so you basically jumped out of the car to see where he was going?
Zimmerman: Yes, sir.
Serino: OK. That’s not fear. You know what I mean?
Zimmerman: Yes, sir.
Serino: That’s one of the problems I have with the whole thing, or I’m gonna have…


So he is brave to follow Martin but not brave to talk to him? :hmmm:
 

Singleton: Um, I still, I still don’t understand, when he walked up to your car, why didn’t you say anything to him?
Zimmerman: I guess fear. I didn’t want to confront him. He seemed…
Singleton: You were afraid of him?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.

Serino: At that point you’re out of the car?
Zimmerman: I think so.
Serino: OK, so you basically jumped out of the car to see where he was going?
Zimmerman: Yes, sir.
Serino: OK. That’s not fear. You know what I mean?
Zimmerman: Yes, sir.
Serino: That’s one of the problems I have with the whole thing, or I’m gonna have…


So he is brave to follow Martin but not brave to talk to him? :hmmm:
Again, the concept of follow-- was it along the lines of ‘at a safe distance’ or as some believe, trying to catch up to him to confront him? I think there is a difference in thinking you’re going to stay at a distance and call the police so they can come and investigate from going up to someone and talking to them. (this going up and talking to them is portrayed variously as 'the reasonable thing to do- why didn’t he ask Martin why he was there? or confrontation --Zimmerman was at fault for sparking this by getting in Martin’s face). Depends on how you portray it.

Would have been far better for Z if he’d just stuck to looking after himself and not getting involved in the community. Alarm system on his own home, gun for his own defense, ignore any strangers and let everybody else look after themselves.

ETA: If it was a matter of he was too afraid of a face-to-face with Martin, but not as much afraid to follow from a distance, I guess you could put it as, he shouldn’t have been willing to put aside any level of fear for himself in the interests of the community.
 
Zimmerman carried a gun and was in a car when he saw the victim. He chose to remove himself from his car and ultimately met up with T. Martin who was walking in his neighborhood. T. Martin was 17 years old, talking on his cell phone and told his phone partner that a man was following him. Zimmerman is an adult man with training as a neighborhood watch person that did not follow his instructions to avoid confrontation.
Zimmerman fatally shoots T. Martin causing his death. I rest my case. Zimmerman- guilty!
How do you avoid a confrontation when the person jumps out of the bushes and attacks you?
 
The word of one man against a dead man who doesn’t have a say:hmmm:hmmm::🤷
Still waiting for any credible proscecution evidence that Z was an aggressor of any kind, let alone that he acted with a depraved mind.

I have to say I’ve never seen so many terrible and incompetent plaintiff witnesses before. Doesn’t say much about the state of conduct of prosecutions in Florida, that’s for sure.
 
Still waiting for any credible proscecution evidence that Z was an aggressor of any kind, let alone that he acted with a depraved mind.

I have to say I’ve never seen so many terrible and incompetent plaintiff witnesses before. Doesn’t say much about the state of conduct of prosecutions in Florida, that’s for sure.
Recall that the local DA declined to file charges against Zimmerman.
 
Asked and answered: there were bushes alongside each unit, as shown in a previously-linked NYT photo.

The fact that Martin is dead is not evidence that Zimmerman is lying.
And to be fair, neither is it evidence that Zimmerman is telling the truth. Just as a lack of defensive wounds doesn’t necessarily disprove Zimmerman having been the agressor with Martin simply being good at defending himself against attack.

Again, a lot of speculation with a lot of information that isn’t related to the most critical point- who initiated physical violence.
 
Again, the concept of follow-- was it along the lines of ‘at a safe distance’ or as some believe, trying to catch up to him to confront him? I think there is a difference in thinking you’re going to stay at a distance and call the police so they can come and investigate from going up to someone and talking to them. (this going up and talking to them is portrayed variously as 'the reasonable thing to do- why didn’t he ask Martin why he was there? or confrontation --Zimmerman was at fault for sparking this by getting in Martin’s face). Depends on how you portray it.

Would have been far better for Z if he’d just stuck to looking after himself and not getting involved in the community. Alarm system on his own home, gun for his own defense, ignore any strangers and let everybody else look after themselves.

ETA: If it was a matter of he was too afraid of a face-to-face with Martin, but not as much afraid to follow from a distance, I guess you could put it as, he shouldn’t have been willing to put aside any level of fear for himself in the interests of the community.
He didn’t need to get out of his car to talk to Martin, did he?

In fact, he told police that, that wasn’t his job. But it was his job to see where Martin was going. :rolleyes:
 
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