Open Thread on Zimmerman Trial

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I believe Zimmerman confronted Martin with the intention to force him back to the mailboxes so he could present a burglary suspect to the police. I believe Zimmerman tried to abduct Martin and, when Martin fought back, Zimmerman shot him. Then fabricated a story about being jumped by a suspicious black kid.
I believe Zimmerman got into overzeaolus Neighborhood Watch Mode; following a suspect that dare ask him what he was doing and then was left in his opinion with no recourse but to shoot the guy with the gun he had with him.
 
I believe Zimmerman confronted Martin with the intention to force him back to the mailboxes so he could present a burglary suspect to the police. I believe Zimmerman tried to abduct Martin and, when Martin fought back, Zimmerman shot him. Then fabricated a story about being jumped by a suspicious black kid.
It’s plausible. But so are some other scenarios. Yours is probably difficult to prove Beyond a Reasonable Doubt.
 
My problem with answering the poll

I never was able to answer the poll, and it kind of lingered in the back of my mind. I have read CAF threads, news articles and the comments, and threads on other forums. I think I have been exposed to information and opinions from a lot of different sides.

And this is my conclusion: the problem with this case is that it is presented as needing a bad guy.

This is a very American thing to do, btw. If a problem occurs, we want answers, we want to assign blame, we want to keep it from happening again or at least find out how to avoid its happening to us.

To simply say that something was the result of accident, not the fault of any particular person, etc., is not reassuring to us and doesn’t fit our national psyche.

In this case, if Zimmerman is found guilty, then he will be the bad guy, and Martin will be the good-guy victim of a bad guy.

Conversely, if Zimmerman is found not guilty, then Martin will be the bad guy, and Zimmerman the good-guy victim.

Think about it… isn’t that what you have seen in people’s comments?

There are those who are somewhat remote from the people involved who take a more logistical view, like chess players, but they are not whom I am talking about.

What I would like to suggest is that *they can both be good guys. *

Yes, I think that this could be a simple matter of two people wandering around in the dark and rainy night, each with no thought of doing anything wrong, but in ignorance of the other’s motives, reacting in a dangerous way.

Let’s look at Trayvon Martin. He is a kid walking home from the store in the rain, talking on a headset telephone. He’s not paying a lot of attention to what’s going on around him, he’s wandering, occasionally ducking under shelter.

He sees a man in a truck watching him. This makes him nervous. He walks towards the truck to see if the man will ask for directions or anything like that, but he doesn’t. In fact, the man looks scary, serious, angry, as he talks on his phone and stares at Trayvon.

Trayvon decides this guy is too creepy and takes off for home. He hears the man get out of his truck and runs to hide. He think he might not want to go home because the man might follow him there and put his family in danger, or maybe he just gets muddled with all the similar-looking sections of buildings.

In the meantime, we have George Zimmerman, a man with a strong urge to help people. The last time he called about someone he had seen, the dispatcher had asked him, after the stranger he was reporting had disappeared, if Zimmerman could, in Zimmerman’s words, “get to where he could see.”

So this time, Zimmerman is not trying necessarily to follow, but to see where to point the police, to “get to where he could see.”

And on his search, Zimmerman somehow startles or is mistaken for seeing Martin, who is hiding. Martin therefore comes out and confronts Zimmerman, who reaches to get his cell phone.

Martin sees that motion and thinks that Zimmerman is reaching for a gun, so he hits Zimmerman and tries to scare him as he hits him.

Zimmerman fears for his life and actually reaches for his gun, with the very sad results.

So, do you see how this could have happened with *neither *of them being a bad guy? How this could have simply been a horrific series of misperceptions and fear-generated decisions?

I truly believe that if we were not looking at this case in a dichotomous way, if we just tried to put ourselves in *both * men’s shoes and tried to understand better *what happened *rather than *who’s at fault, *that we could come to a better place both in this case and in this nation.

But division and fear-mongering on both sides is instead leading us to a worse place.
 
I believe Zimmerman confronted Martin with the intention to force him back to the mailboxes so he could present a burglary suspect to the police. I believe Zimmerman tried to abduct Martin and, when Martin fought back, Zimmerman shot him. Then fabricated a story about being jumped by a suspicious black kid.
I agree; he got into major overzealous neighborhood watch captain mode. Not good with a gun.
 
The location of Zimmerman’s truck in the map I posted is exactly where Zimmerman told the dispatcher it was. Next to the mailboxes (the small building next to the clubhouse).

So you agree that he was, in fact, not looking for an address but pursuing Martin?
hmmm, following, looking for, and now pursuing. Pursuing is like following, with is maintaining proximity with someone whose changing location one knows; pursuingnis following but (in this case) with the intent of catching or attacking.

I see no evidence for what you are alleging. If evidence came up that Zimmerman was “pursuing” Martin, I would not fall over in shock; if evidence came up that Zimmerman had not known where Martin was, I would not fall over in shock.

You are making assumptions about Zimmerman for which there is no evidence. I’m not saying you’re wrong, just saying it’s your opinion.
 
My problem with answering the poll

I never was able to answer the poll, and it kind of lingered in the back of my mind. I have read CAF threads, news articles and the comments, and threads on other forums. I think I have been exposed to information and opinions from a lot of different sides.

And this is my conclusion: the problem with this case is that it is presented as needing a bad guy.

This is a very American thing to do, btw. If a problem occurs, we want answers, we want to assign blame, we want to keep it from happening again or at least find out how to avoid its happening to us.

To simply say that something was the result of accident, not the fault of any particular person, etc., is not reassuring to us and doesn’t fit our national psyche.

In this case, if Zimmerman is found guilty, then he will be the bad guy, and Martin will be the good-guy victim of a bad guy.

Conversely, if Zimmerman is found not guilty, then Martin will be the bad guy, and Zimmerman the good-guy victim.

Think about it… isn’t that what you have seen in people’s comments?

There are those who are somewhat remote from the people involved who take a more logistical view, like chess players, but they are not whom I am talking about.

What I would like to suggest is that *they can both be good guys. *

Yes, I think that this could be a simple matter of two people wandering around in the dark and rainy night, each with no thought of doing anything wrong, but in ignorance of the other’s motives, reacting in a dangerous way.

Let’s look at Trayvon Martin. He is a kid walking home from the store in the rain, talking on a headset telephone. He’s not paying a lot of attention to what’s going on around him, he’s wandering, occasionally ducking under shelter.

He sees a man in a truck watching him. This makes him nervous. He walks towards the truck to see if the man will ask for directions or anything like that, but he doesn’t. In fact, the man looks scary, serious, angry, as he talks on his phone and stares at Trayvon.

Trayvon decides this guy is too creepy and takes off for home. He hears the man get out of his truck and runs to hide. He think he might not want to go home because the man might follow him there and put his family in danger, or maybe he just gets muddled with all the similar-looking sections of buildings.

In the meantime, we have George Zimmerman, a man with a strong urge to help people. The last time he called about someone he had seen, the dispatcher had asked him, after the stranger he was reporting had disappeared, if Zimmerman could, in Zimmerman’s words, “get to where he could see.”

So this time, Zimmerman is not trying necessarily to follow, but to see where to point the police, to “get to where he could see.”

And on his search, Zimmerman somehow startles or is mistaken for seeing Martin, who is hiding. Martin therefore comes out and confronts Zimmerman, who reaches to get his cell phone.

Martin sees that motion and thinks that Zimmerman is reaching for a gun, so he hits Zimmerman and tries to scare him as he hits him.

Zimmerman fears for his life and actually reaches for his gun, with the very sad results.

So, do you see how this could have happened with *neither *of them being a bad guy? How this could have simply been a horrific series of misperceptions and fear-generated decisions?

I truly believe that if we were not looking at this case in a dichotomous way, if we just tried to put ourselves in *both * men’s shoes and tried to understand better *what happened *rather than *who’s at fault, *that we could come to a better place both in this case and in this nation.

But division and fear-mongering on both sides is instead leading us to a worse place.
Outstanding post! This really helped me gain perspective- I had fallen into that same emotional trap of right/wrong good/bad & it was making me judgmental- thank you for injecting some sanity into the debate.
 
Most everythings posted here is opinion except the map and the quotes from the trial itself.

One witness is dead; makes it hard to obtain the full story.
 
The location of Zimmerman’s truck in the map I posted is exactly where Zimmerman told the dispatcher it was. Next to the mailboxes (the small building next to the clubhouse).
He told the dispatcher he was beyond the mailboxes: "straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck. "
So you agree that he was, in fact, not looking for an address but pursuing Martin?
hmmm, following, looking for, and now pursuing. Pursuing is like following, which is maintaining proximity with someone whose changing location one knows; pursuing is following but (in this case) with the intent of catching or attacking.

I see no evidence for what you are alleging. If evidence came up that Zimmerman was “pursuing” Martin, I would not fall over in shock; if evidence came up that Zimmerman had not known where Martin was, I would not fall over in shock.

You are making assumptions about Zimmerman for which there is no evidence. I’m not saying you’re wrong, just saying it’s your opinion.

As for “what I am saying,” Zimmerman said he was looking for an address, but I am not considering Zimmerman’s words as evidence per se, ie, I do not consider it a fact that he was looking for an address. I think it is a possibility he was looking for an address; I think it is a possibility that he was looking for Martin.

I think it is unlikely that he was “pursuing” Martin–I see no evidence at all anywhere for your opinion that Zimmerman wanted to catch Martin and bring him back to the mailboxes for the police. Maybe you have some evidence for that?
 
Most everythings posted here is opinion except the map and the quotes from the trial itself.

One witness is dead; makes it hard to obtain the full story.
It makes it impossible to obtain the details of the actual incident. As EmperorNapolean has done, we can all construct scenarios that comply with our specific biases. We can portray our pre-conceptions on others as he has on Zimmerman. Or biases against carrying a gun.

But bottom line, we do not know who turned it physical. So we are left with our system of justice, which tends to err on the side of not incarcerating folks if there is reasonable doubt they are innocent.

The ruling, whichever way it goes, may comply with the legalities of the situation but it will never answer what actually transpired between the two. Because there is no evidence for that point in time.

I’ve been in too many volunteer groups where the guy in charge became so, not because he wanted to, but because a lot of folks who weren’t willing to do the job (even though they thought it worthwhile) talked them into it. Everybody is supportive of the PTA, booster club, church ministries, and think they are great ideas until you try and get them to be personally involved. And they are all to ready to blame and criticize the folks who are actually willing to put in the time and make the effort.

Zimmerman’s fundamental mistake in all this was caring about his neighbors enough to get involved. I’ll never do it, I’ve learned here that it will be perceived as being a wannabe cop, aggressive, racist, bloodthirsty etc etc.
 
I believe Zimmerman confronted Martin with the intention to force him back to the mailboxes so he could present a burglary suspect to the police. I believe Zimmerman tried to abduct Martin and, when Martin fought back, Zimmerman shot him. Then fabricated a story about being jumped by a suspicious black kid.
So Martin attacked Zimmerman and he shot him?
 
It’s plausible. But so are some other scenarios. Yours is probably difficult to prove Beyond a Reasonable Doubt.
Exactly. Fabricating a possible scenario and determining guilt based on that fabricated scenario is not a good way to decide a case. :cool:
 
It makes it impossible to obtain the details of the actual incident. As EmperorNapolean has done, we can all construct scenarios that comply with our specific biases. We can portray our pre-conceptions on others as he has on Zimmerman. Or biases against carrying a gun.

But bottom line, we do not know who turned it physical. So we are left with our system of justice, which tends to err on the side of not incarcerating folks if there is reasonable doubt they are innocent.

The ruling, whichever way it goes, may comply with the legalities of the situation but it will never answer what actually transpired between the two. Because there is no evidence for that point in time.
👍
 
I can’t find anything “funny” worth “rofl” about with this entire scenario.
Good grief.
I find EmperorNapoleon’s judgment of guilt based on a scenario he fabricated himself absolutely hilarious, and an example of the emotional lengths people go to in these sorts of cases.

You can choose to find that humorous or not…I could care less.
 
I find EmperorNapoleon’s judgment of guilt based on a scenario he fabricated himself absolutely hilarious, and an example of the emotional lengths people go in these sorts of cases.

You can choose to find that humorous or not…I could care less.
Perhaps you’d care more if your child was dead.

Ok then…laugh away…you now have my permission 🙂
 
Perhaps you’d care more if your child was dead.

Ok then…laugh away…you now have my permission 🙂
EmperorNapoleon’s deliberation process, which is what I was laughing about, has no effect on how I feel about the tragic death in this case. Throw stones at someone else.
 
EmperorNapoleon’s deliberation process, which is what I was laughing about, has no effect on how I feel about the tragic death in this case. Throw stones at someone else.
I find no need. Throw more stones at Emperor Napolean if you care to I doubt he could
um well to use your “words”
“care less”
:rotfl:
 
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