Open Thread on Zimmerman Trial

[styrgwillidar]

The reason paper bags were used in this case was because the clothing was wet.The ME was pointing out that if plastic had been used it would be a cause for firing. The clothing was probably changed to a plastic bag, then being dry, before being sent to the DNA lab.

Except the DNA tech said the clothes smelled moldy, as if they’d been put in the bags wet. I’ll have to go back and look at the transcript.

 

[kelvinf]

About Dr. Bao in general, his way of presenting certainly wasn’t the best. But he was very entertaining.

The way he was behaving in court wasn’t like your typical witness. So I think we have to consider culture here. I don’t think he is well integrated or wants to integrate since this isn’t his first court appearance.

He had problems with the language for sure. I believe that must be taken into consideration. He didn’t express himself well quite a good number of times. He was saying stuff like “I don’t have a memory”, “I have a new memory” etc. But I understood what he meant and the prosecution also helped clarify some of his statements.

So they basically work on lots of cases daily and he documents everything that same day and moves on. He said of all the cases they work on, just few of them end up in a trial. So one shouldn’t expect that he will have the details of every case in his mind some years later. In fact, he came across to me like someone who doesn’t want to have all these cases in his memory. Fact is, for each case they work on, they write their report that same day and move on. So his testimony today was largely based on the report they had written and not on what he could remember. Hence his repeated “I don’t remember” about things that weren’t part of the report.

Regarding taking pictures, he told the defense that they don’t take pictures of every part of the body. He said that he thoroughly examines the body and they take pictures of areas of interest: important injuries, tumors etc. That they didn’t snap the hands because he didn’t find anything significant on the hands and that they generally do not just take pictures for future use. The prosecution helped bury this issue. He testified to the prosecution that they normally take 5 - 10 pictures. That is the standard for all cases. The defense asked him what if he misses something. He responded by saying that “I will not miss anything.” “Nobody knows Trayvon Martin’s autopsy more than I do.” He sounded very confident and real (not acting or responding based on emotions). I have read some saying he was proud.

What he said about the abrasions was certainly good for the prosecution. That the small abrasions could have happened about 2 hours before, during or after Trayvon had been shot. The exact time of it cannot be determined.

Contrary to what one of the posters here was suggesting about him using a certain book to defend his findings, that wasn’t really the case. Several times, he mentioned many books. He said they generally read books; so not just in this particular case. Then the defense asked him about a specific book and he said he also uses it. But he didn’t take anything out of this book. All this concerned the shooting range. He reiterated that he is a medical examiner and his job is to dertermine “the cause and manner of death” and not about shooting range. But he provided an opinion on that. So I don’t see any issue regarding a specific book as has been claimed on this thread.

Finally, and for me one of the most important part, was his change of opinion. What he testified about his change of opinion is nothing other than pure science. He said he was told the jurors are open-minded…
In the report, he wrote that Martin was alive for 1 to 3 minutes after the gunshot. But he now believes Martin was alive for 1 to 10 minutes. This is based on a very similar case they dealt with 3 weeks ago. He testified that the case was a very rare case and is something that could happen once in 10 years. That this was a case that is relevant for the rest of the world and worth publishing.
So he said for the first time, they were able to observe someone who was also shot in the heart for up to 10 minutes. The person died after 10 minutes. Therefore, that is the new maximum he now knows of and hence updated his opinion about how long Martin was alive.

Keeping his style and language aside, I think he is a great witness in this case. I am just saying, since I don’t think this testimony brings to light new facts except about the small abrasions and how long Trayvon was alive.

(This guy reminds me of Dexter although his style is completely different)

 

[estesbob]

Keeping his style and language aside, I think he is a great witness in this case.

(This guy reminds me of Dexter although his style is completely different)

“Other than that, how was the play, Mrs Lincoln”

 

[grotto]

This guy was very interesting. He repeatedly told both the prosecution and defense the difference between facts and opinions. He said for instance: “Facts: there is no right or wrong. Just true of false”. The defense immediately raised an objection. Regarding opinion, he spoke of opinion as based on facts and life time learning experience. (Very smart guy.) That he changed his opinion shouldn’t be surprising as he said, since it is based on learning and experience. He made reference to the body they examined 3 weeks ago. From that experience, he learnt something new. That made him to change his opinion.

Any person in the field of science should easily understand this, I believe.

---

I agree with you. I found him interesting as well but slightly difficult to follow his manner of explanation at first. The defense was making “a sow’s ear out of a purse” so the interruptions were numerous and difficult to suffer patiently. In his profession how could one expect him to “remember” scientific data found on the numerous deceased persons.
He expertly depended upon his notes and would refuse to offer his “opinion” without them.
I found his opinion about the length of time the dying process took very interesting to consider; because it was based on knowledge gained from a learned experience. This information could influence one’s consideration of hearing screams of pain and help.

Aside from other commentary, whatever happened to “Stop or I’ll shoot!” or just “Stop” as Zimmerman was armed and knew he had protection. Perhaps that knowledge made him aggressive toward Martin. I do not believe he was in fear of his life since he got out of his car and followed/caught up with Martin (an action he was trained not to perform).

Its a sorry business we are debating. Hopefully the jury will give a fair decision.

 

[maryjk]

IAside from other commentary, whatever happened to “Stop or I’ll shoot!” or just “Stop” as Zimmerman was armed and knew he had protection. Perhaps that knowledge made him aggressive toward Martin. I do not believe he was in fear of his life since he got out of his car and followed/caught up with Martin (an action he was trained not to perform).

Its a sorry business we are debating. Hopefully the jury will give a fair decision.

It is interesting that people are accusing Zimmerman of being a cop wannabe. Yet, having him yell “Stop or I’ll shoot,” is what people think a cop would yell.

When you carrying concealed, you do not announce that you CAN shoot. You keep your weapon concealed until you need it.

In addition, since he didn’t know if Martin was armed, announcing that he was, could have put him at a disadvantage. Something else you don’t want to do.

Also, he would of had to be close enough for Martin to hear him. Since he wasn’t following Martin, how would he have done that??

 

[Elizabeth502]

It is interesting that people are accusing Zimmerman of being a cop wannabe. Yet, having him yell “Stop or I’ll shoot,” is what people think a cop would yell.

Correct. The point is that he will hopefully not be judged (should not be judged, in a legal context) on whether he, a nonprofessional, acted like a professional. Rather, the standard would be what an ordinary person in those circumstances should and should not have done, to what extent emotions of the accused played into his misjudgments, and to what extend the victim’s behavior affected Z’s decision-making.

 

[kelvinf]

Agree on the delegation, but he didn’t seem to have much awareness of the how/what/where of going about their tasks. Where I work we’re accountable for our subordinates efforts- they mess up and we get held accountable along with them. It can tend to push one towards micro-management. He just seemed more detached than the supervisors in my line of work.

I’ve kind of thought that about both sides through the whole trial. A lot of-- hey look, a squirrel!!!

I understand what you are saying.

I just think different jobs are managed differently. Let’s consider a doctor and a nurse. The doctor doesn’t really supervise the nurse. He delegates tasks and that’s it. The nurse basically works independently. I don’t think the doctor knows all the details of how the nurse handles a patient.

So I think the ME doesn’t really concern himself with how the technicians carry out their jobs. They are not interns.

 

[kelvinf]

“Other than that, how was the play, Mrs Lincoln”

 

[kelvinf]

Well, one of the issues is that Zimmerman claimed that after shooting Martin, Martin rolled off of him laying facedown. Zimmerman says he got on top of him and held his hands away from his body. Martin’s body however, had his hands under him when the police/other folks arrived on scene. So, if Martin was dead in 1 or 2 minutes while Zimmerman was on top of him-- how did his hands get under him? If Martin was actually still alive after Zimmerman got off him- Martin could have moved his hands under himself.

Again, as in my other post my impression was the big deal in court was more the change of opinion as a surprise to all, combined with the ME saying he’d met with the prosecutor the day before and thought he had, maybe hadn’t, maybe had told the prosecutor yesterday.

So the 1 to 10 minutes should actually favour the defense. But the defense was the one pressing the doctor on this change of opinion. The prosecution seemed not informed about it (as you also noticed) but was kind of cool with it. So it seems like there is more to this revelation.

 

[SamH]

So the 1 to 10 minutes should actually favour the defense. But the defense was the one pressing the doctor on this change of opinion. The prosecution seemed not informed about it (as you also noticed) but was kind of cool with it. So it seems like there is more to this revelation.

The ME also said he had changed his “opinion” on the effect the level of drugs in Martin’s system and that he was high the night he attacked Zimmerman. He also forgot to pass that along to the prosecution and the defense.

 

[Carlan]

The ME also said he had changed his “opinion” on the effect the level of drugs in Martin’s system and that he was high the night he attacked Zimmerman. He also forgot to pass that along to the prosecution and the defense.

What! fist I heard the Martin boy had drugs in his system.

 

[St_Francis]

The ME also said he had changed his “opinion” on the effect the level of drugs in Martin’s system and that he was high the night he attacked Zimmerman. He also forgot to pass that along to the prosecution and the defense.

I am speechless!

 

[Carlan]

I am speechless!

Tell me St Francis, what exactly are you speechless about? Is this this the first you have heard the mention of drugs possibly involved or what?

 

[SwizzleStick]

I am speechless!

Why are you speechless? Because the witness failed to inform the attorneys? Or because of what he testified?

In any event, it wasn’t a new admission. It was stated over a year ago, in May of 2012 when results of the autopsy were made public that “Martin’s blood contained THC, which is the psychoactive ingredient in marijuana,” .

Blue excerpt from:

Police: Trayvon Martin’s death ‘ultimately avoidable’
cnn.com/2012/05/17/justice/florida-teen-shooting

 

[Carlan]

Why are you speechless? Because the witness failed to inform the attorneys? Or because of what he testified?

In any event, it wasn’t a new admission. It was stated over a year ago, in May of 2012 when results of the autopsy were made public that “Martin’s blood contained THC, which is the psychoactive ingredient in marijuana,” .

Blue excerpt from:

Police: Trayvon Martin’s death ‘ultimately avoidable’
cnn.com/2012/05/17/justice/florida-teen-shooting

Well if that statement were true how come the ME did not report such and the attorneys did not bring it up in quetioning?

 

[SwizzleStick]

Well if that statement were true how come the ME did not report such and the attorneys did not bring it up in quetioning?

I don’t know. I haven’t kept up with any of the testimony since Tuesday as I’ve been out of town. It appears I misunderstood the post I responded to, if the ME didn’t bring it up in testimony.

The ME also said he had changed his “opinion” on the effect the level of drugs in Martin’s system and that he was high the night he attacked Zimmerman. He also forgot to pass that along to the prosecution and the defense.

I took the above to mean the ME stated the effect of the level of the drugs in Martin’s system was a factor in his attack on Zimmerman. It appears you are saying his opinion was the opposite?

 

[St_Francis]

Tell me St Francis, what exactly are you speechless about? Is this this the first you have heard the mention of drugs possibly involved or what?

Why are you speechless? Because the witness failed to inform the attorneys? Or because of what he testified?

In any event, it wasn’t a new admission. It was stated over a year ago, in May of 2012 when results of the autopsy were made public that “Martin’s blood contained THC, which is the psychoactive ingredient in marijuana,” .

Blue excerpt from:

Police: Trayvon Martin’s death ‘ultimately avoidable’
cnn.com/2012/05/17/justice/florida-teen-shooting

I was speechless because the ME failed to notify either the prosecution or the defense about his change of opinion. This in addition to being unsure of having notifed the prosecutor about his change of opinion wrt to the amount of time Martin might have lived after having been shot.

This seems like a major problem in an ME!

I’m sorry i wasn’t clear about why I was shocked–to me what the ME did would be like a speechwriter putting the poem Jabberwocky in front of a speaker… or putting regular gas in a car just during the preparation for a race. Just so obviously way over the top that it would be clear that’s what I meant.

But i can see where that might have been seen as being a reaction to Martin’s having drugs in his system.

 

[Dawnia]

So the 1 to 10 minutes should actually favour the defense. But the defense was the one pressing the doctor on this change of opinion. The prosecution seemed not informed about it (as you also noticed) but was kind of cool with it. So it seems like there is more to this revelation.

The reason the Defense was hitting on this particular issue is because it could be basis for a mistrial. It also gives an opening for appeal if Zimmerman is convicted.

 

[Dawnia]

Well if that statement were true how come the ME did not report such and the attorneys did not bring it up in quetioning?

If I recall correctly, the drug use was deemed inadmissible as was TM’s prior bad acts.

 

[SwizzleStick]

Well if that statement were true how come the ME did not report such and the attorneys did not bring it up in quetioning?

For those who may not have watched the testimony, I found this recap of the ME’s testimony, relevant info excerpted in blue below.

"…And the medical examiner who performed the autopsy on Trayvon made three dramatic changes of opinion during a contentious stint on the witness stand.

Shiping Bao, the Associate Volusia County Medical Examiner who performed an autopsy on Trayvon Feb. 27, 2012, the day after the 17-year-old was killed, first told jurors that the Miami Gardens teenager could not have moved once Zimmerman shot him in the heart.

During cross-examination, however, he reversed himself, saying the teenager might have been able to move a bit.

That’s an important point. Zimmerman told police he spread and pinned Trayvon’s hands to the ground after shooting him. However, the first neighbor and first officer at the scene both testified that Trayvon’s hands were under his body.

Bao also changed his opinion, saying he originally believed Trayvon likely survived the shot for one to three minutes but now believes it was one to 10 minutes.

With the jury out of the room, Bao also said he now believes the small amount of marijuana in Trayvon’s system may have affected his behavior, an idea he rejected when he gave a sworn statement in November.

Zimmerman, a Neighborhood Watch volunteer, says he shot Trayvon in self-defense after the Miami Gardens high school junior punched him, knocking him to the ground and breaking his nose, then climbed on top and began hammering his head against the sidewalk."

Blue excerpt from:
George Zimmerman trial: Both moms take the stand
articles.orlandosentinel.com/2013-07-05/news/os-george-zimmerman-trial-state-rests-20130705_1_sybrina-fulton-trayvon-martin-trayvon-feb