Open Thread on Zimmerman Trial

[styrgwillidar]

Thank you for your explanations Your first post explaining CC was also very informative. Obviously I have had no training in this area! These were issues I hadn’t thought about, but on reflection, they make a lot of sense.

I’m not an expert, and laws between jurisdictions can vary greatly. So, I’m trying to explain it in broad terms. There are websites which explain it in detail by jurisdiction if you are interested. I don’t have any book marked though.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Thank you for your explanations Your first post explaining CC was also very informative. Obviously I have had no training in this area! These were issues I hadn’t thought about, but on reflection, they make a lot of sense.

A bit OT, but while I’m at it- since ignorance of the law is no excuse its prudent to know the laws. Edged weapons in my state fall under the same ‘Dangerous Weapon Control Laws’ which cover firearms. While you can carry a pocket knife folded concealed in your pocket any fixed blade knife is defined as a ‘dirk or dagger’ and can not be carried concealed. It can be carried in a sheath which must remain visible at all times and not even momentarily covered by a sweater or jacket. I found out a female acquaintance had taken to carrying a steak knife in her purse due to a series of attacks around a train station she frequented. She was unaware that she was violating the law and considered to be carrying a concealed weapon.

ETA: A pocket knife carried with the blade extended vice folded falls under the ‘dirk or dagger’ definition.

 

[St_Francis]

A bit OT, but while I’m at it- since ignorance of the law is no excuse its prudent to know the laws. Edged weapons in my state fall under the same ‘Dangerous Weapon Control Laws’ which cover firearms. While you can carry a pocket knife folded concealed in your pocket any fixed blade knife is defined as a ‘dirk or dagger’ and can not be carried concealed. It can be carried in a sheath which must remain visible at all times and not even momentarily covered by a sweater or jacket. I found out a female acquaintance had taken to carrying a steak knife in her purse due to a series of attacks around a train station she frequented. She was unaware that she was violating the law and considered to be carrying a concealed weapon.

ETA: A pocket knife carried with the blade extended vice folded falls under the ‘dirk or dagger’ definition.

Wow! That’s good stuff to know too. Thanks!

And I understand about the different jurisdictions.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Wow! That’s good stuff to know too. Thanks!

And I understand about the different jurisdictions.

I guess I can bring this back on topic in a way. Some folks have pointed to Z’s classes and knowledge of the law as some kind of indictment against him. That he had learned the law to know what to say to indicate compliance with the law. Yet, if folks don’t know the law we consider them irresponsible.

 

[maryjk]

That is correct. Judge Nelson ruled that the presence of THC and all other of Martin’s prior acts were not relevant going into the trial and prohibited the defense bringing them up. However, she did leave open the possibility of re-visiting the issue during the trial if it appeared they would be relevant.

Note, the THC ruling was partially based on the coroner having stated it would not have affected Martin’s behavior at his deposition.

Note also that the ME was only allowed to express his changed opinion on the THC levels without the jury present and the defense team was again directed that this would continue to be inadmissible. The defense can not bring up Martin’s drug use.

The judge has reversed her decision.

Defense lawyers will be permitted to show that Trayvon Martin had marijuana in his system when he and George Zimmerman had their fateful encounter in a gated community in Florida last year, the judge in Zimmerman’s murder trial ruled Monday.

Judge Debra Nelson denied a motion by prosecutors to keep toxicology results showing THC in Martin’s system from the jury, paving the way for Zimmerman’s lawyers to argue the drug may have influenced the teen’s behavior. Defense attorney Don West noted that in Zimmerman’s statement to the non-emergency 911 dispatcher that it appeared the person he was observing in the Sanford, Fla., community was “on drugs.”

Read more: foxnews.com/us/2013/07/08/zimmerman-defense-to-continue-presentation-monday/#ixzz2YVQzl1he

 

[Yerusalyim]

And to be fair, neither is it evidence that Zimmerman is telling the truth. Just as a lack of defensive wounds doesn’t necessarily disprove Zimmerman having been the agressor with Martin simply being good at defending himself against attack.

Again, a lot of speculation with a lot of information that isn’t related to the most critical point- who initiated physical violence.

Here’s the (truly) great thing about our justice system…the prosecution has to prove that Zimmerman was the aggressor, or that he acted with malice…they haven’t proven anything except that this case should not have gone to trial.

 

[scipio337]

Great article by Victor Davis Hanson, on “Revolutionary Tribunals”, tying together Socrates, the Tribunal Révolutionnaire, Scooter Libby, and the Zimmerman trial.

People can legitimately disagree on the merits of the George Zimmerman self-defense case. But few serious observers believe that Zimmerman can ever be proved to have committed second-degree murder as charged. That prosecutorial overreach came in response to the popular furor whipped up by racialists like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, veiled suggestions from Attorney General Holder that civil-rights violations might be prosecuted, and improper editorializing by the president of the United States about his and Trayvon Martin’s shared racial makeup. All this led the state of Florida to appoint a special prosecutor overriding local public prosecutors, apparently because of both fears of civil unrest and liberal perceptions of social justice.

The popular media once again did their best, along with politicos, to use a criminal court for larger social agendas and therefore hyped the racial aspects of the trial: CBS aired doctored photos of George Zimmerman to downplay the severity of his injuries. NBC altered Zimmerman’s 911 tape to make him sound a racist. The New York Times invented a new rubric, “white Hispanic,” to ensure that the case was explosively reinvented in the media as white on black, rather than a Latino/black incident.

The American court system is insidiously focusing on social transformation rather than individual justice. If Neanderthal reactionaries in California twice voted to reiterate that marriage is between a man and a woman, then leave it to judges and courts to find them bigoted and politically incorrect. In the present revolutionary environment, the degree of the Obama administration’s enforcement of federal laws concerning gay marriage, or illegal immigration, or the new health-care law has hinged on politics and perceptions about social justice — and the courts increasingly predicate their own decision-making on these same considerations. The street can brand a court either an esteemed ally or a reactionary enemy of the people, and so the courts make the necessary adjustments.

If only George Zimmerman had Hispanicized his first name and adopted his maternal last name, the popular tribunal might have never indicted Jorge Meza. If only Conrad Black had been head of the New York Times, whose incompetent, high-living owners have cost stockholders hundreds of millions of dollars, rather than an outspoken conservative public figure, the prosecutor might not have been too interested in his affairs. And if Scooter Libby had just worked for Barack Obama, a special prosecutor would no more have gone after him for leaking or being untruthful than it has James Clapper or Eric Holder.

nationalreview.com/article/352873/revolutionary-tribunals-victor-davis-hanson/page/0/1?splash=

In the spirit of Grecophile Hanson, do those calling for “justice” in the Zimmerman trial recall the “Trial of the Generals” after the Battle of Arginusae?

 

[Seamus_L]

I don’t know who in there right mind would identify George Zimmerman as anything other than Hispanic (including Zimmerman himself) and yet for this trial it seems he’s considered pretty much to be white.

 

[kelvinf]

I don’t know who in there right mind would identify George Zimmerman as anything other than Hispanic (including Zimmerman himself) and yet for this trial it seems he’s considered pretty much to be white.

Who is white depends on who you talk to. Someone from Sub-Saharan Africa for instance would definitely identify Zimmerman as white. That might as well be the case amongst African-Americans but I am not quite sure. Different cultures/races perceive skin colour differently. That’s for sure. If you don’t know this, simply say so, rather than question whether people who perceive Zimmerman as white are in their right minds.

 

[scipio337]

Who is white depends on who you talk to. Someone from Sub-Saharan Africa for instance would definitely identify Zimmerman as white. That might as well be the case amongst African-Americans but I am not quite sure. Different cultures/races perceive skin colour differently. That’s for sure. If you don’t know this, simply say so, rather than question whether people who perceive Zimmerman as white are in their right minds.

The shooting didn’t take place in Sub Saharan Africa. It took place in the United States, Florida, in the Orlando metropolitan region.

Perhaps you’re not familiar with ethnic and cultural identity in the US, Florida in particular, who has a VERY large Hispanic community? Furthermore, the New York Times identified Zimmerman as a “White Hispanic”, an ethnic designation previously unknown in American English.

Would a special prosecutor have been appointed had Zimmerman not Agnlicized his first name, and took his maternal last name (pretty common in Hispanic communities)?

Would “Jorge Meza” have been charged with 2nd degree murder, or labeled a “white hispanic”?

 

[SamH]

The shooting didn’t take place in Sub Saharan Africa. It took place in the United States, Florida, in the Orlando metropolitan region.

Perhaps you’re not familiar with ethnic and cultural identity in the US, Florida in particular, who has a VERY large Hispanic community? Furthermore, the New York Times identified Zimmerman as a “White Hispanic”, an ethnic designation previously unknown in American English.

Was anyone surprised that the NY Times was making stuff up?

 

[Jeanne_S]

The shooting didn’t take place in Sub Saharan Africa. It took place in the United States, Florida, in the Orlando metropolitan region.

Perhaps you’re not familiar with ethnic and cultural identity in the US, Florida in particular, who has a VERY large Hispanic community? Furthermore, the New York Times identified Zimmerman as a “White Hispanic”, an ethnic designation previously unknown in American English.

Would a special prosecutor have been appointed had Zimmerman not Agnlicized his first name, and took his maternal last name (pretty common in Hispanic communities)?

Would “Jorge Meza” have been charged with 2nd degree murder, or labeled a “white hispanic”?

:thumbsup:From the very start the media and Obama have made every effort to make this case about “white on black crime”. Referring to Zimmerman’s whiteness(funny how Obama’s whiteness is overlooked)to their disingenuous portrayal of Trayvon Martin as a little preteen walking around with skitte and a slurpy,being preyed upon by a big bad racist! It does seem that the trail is exposing these misrepresentations.

 

[Tucker_R]

examiner.com/article/mob-beats-man-on-his-own-front-porch-for-trayvon-press-ignores

 

[qui_est_ce]

Who is white depends on who you talk to. Someone from Sub-Saharan Africa for instance would definitely identify Zimmerman as white. That might as well be the case amongst African-Americans but I am not quite sure. Different cultures/races perceive skin colour differently. That’s for sure. If you don’t know this, simply say so, rather than question whether people who perceive Zimmerman as white are in their right minds.

In the US, there are specific race designations that one fills out when applying for a loan, a job, school, etc.
This one is from Alabama, but is the same as the one we use in Missouri.

Current Race/Ethnic Designations
The University of Alabama at Birmingham is a federal government contractor. As a matter of institutional policy as well as applicable law, we are required to keep records and perform certain analyses of our applicant pool and employee population by race, ethnicity and gender. Since such analyses are only possible if we know the EEO profile of our applicants and employees, we ask for this information. Self-identification is the preferred method of identifying race and ethnic information necessary for these analyses. The information provided is treated confidentially. For any statistical analysis to be meaningful, we must have information on as many applicants as possible and on all employees. The categories listed below are those used by the U.S. Bureau of Census and the Department of Labor and are the only options currently available to you for Federal reporting purposes. Any changes made to the options will be communicated by Human Resources with an invitation to confidentially self-identify.

**White (Not Hispanic or Latino) **- A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa

Black or African American (Not Hispanic or Latino) - A person having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa

Hispanic or Latino - A person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin regardless of race

**Asian (Not Hispanic or Latino) **- A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian Subcontinent, including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam

Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander (Not Hispanic or Latino) - A person having origins in any of the peoples of Hawaii, Guam, Samoa, or other Pacific Islands

American Indian or Alaska Native (Not Hispanic or Latino) - A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America), and who maintain tribal affiliation or community attachment
**
Two or More Races (Not Hispanic or Latino)** - All persons who identify with more than one of the above five races.

I find it strange that “white” is a race.

 

[estesbob]

Who is white depends on who you talk to. Someone from Sub-Saharan Africa for instance would definitely identify Zimmerman as white. That might as well be the case amongst African-Americans but I am not quite sure. Different cultures/races perceive skin colour differently. That’s for sure. If you don’t know this, simply say so, rather than question whether people who perceive Zimmerman as white are in their right minds.

Zimmerman is as much Hispanic as Obama is an African American. Have you ever heard Obama referred to as a white African American?

 

[Tucker_R]

:clapping:

Zimmerman is as much Hispanic as Obama is an African American. Have you ever heard Obama referred to as a white African American?

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Zimmerman is as much Hispanic as Obama is an African American. Have you ever heard Obama referred to as a white African American?

 

[kelvinf]

I understand people’s concerned about the media trying to play the race card but we are talking of ordinary folks who identified Zimmerman differently:

• Police Officer Timothy Smith identified George Zimmerman as a white male.
• Jonathan Good initially identified Zimmerman as a white or Hispanic male. (White Hispanic? Maybe the media forgot the “or” )

“It was a black man with a black hoodie on top of the other, either a white guy or now I found out I think it was a Hispanic guy with a red sweatshirt on the ground yelling out help!”

• Rachel Jeantel testified that Trayvon Martin said he was being followed by a white man.

There are just two possibilities here: either this was all planned by the media or some people naturally can’t clearly differentiate between races or ethnicities. I believe the latter is a fact that can’t be disputed.

So all Americans have the ability to see someone and immediately classify the person exactly into one of those groups put forward by the U.S Bureau of Census? The Zimmerman case clearly proves otherwise, unless all those who identified Zimmerman as white were told to do so by the media.

I have read about Census 2000 and Census 2010. They both unequivocally show that race/ethnity designation in America isn’t black and white. So I don’t understand why people are usually so surprised about different people identifying the same person differently. There is more to this than the media.

 

[Tucker_R]

Because the media it seems does that to further its own agenda.

I understand people’s concerned about the media trying to play the race card but we are talking of ordinary folks who identified Zimmerman differently:

• Police Officer Timothy Smith identified George Zimmerman as a white male.
• Jonathan Good initially identified Zimmerman as a white or Hispanic male. (White Hispanic? Maybe the media forgot the “or” )

“It was a black man with a black hoodie on top of the other, either a white guy or now I found out I think it was a Hispanic guy with a red sweatshirt on the ground yelling out help!”

• Rachel Jeantel testified that Trayvon Martin said he was being followed by a white man.

There are just two possibilities here: either this was all planned by the media or some people naturally can’t clearly differentiate between races or ethnicities. I believe the latter is a fact that can’t be disputed.

So all Americans have the ability to see someone and immediately classify the person exactly into one of those groups put forward by the U.S Bureau of Census? The Zimmerman case clearly proves otherwise, unless all those who identified Zimmerman as white were told to do so by the media.

I have read about Census 2000 and Census 2010. They both unequivocally show that race/ethnity designation in America isn’t black and white. So I don’t understand why people are usually so surprised about different people identifying the same person differently. There is more to this than the media.

 

[Dawnia]

Defense is planning to be done tomorrow, so it is almost over. Zimmerman will not be taking the stand.

DiMaio was interesting and “dummy” friendly. His experience makes Bao look like just an intern. He specifically contradicted Bao on a couple key issues, like length of time alive, ability to feel pain, etc. Criticized procedures of the ME’s office. But no major surprises.

The Prosecution on cross seemed confused as to job of forensic pathologist. Not sure if lawyers acting dumb (which they do sometimes on purpose) or just really don’t know. I’m not a forensic pathologist (or medical professional by any stretch of the imagination) and even I understood some of the things that DiMaio was saying about bruising and head trauma that seemed to completely go over the Prosecution’s head.

Defense is putting on a much better case than Prosecution.