Openly gay Catholic receiving communion?

[Ahimsa]

The only thing to do in such circumstances is urge your friend, if she admits to engaging in homosexual activity…

Of course, the friend might just simply say, “NOYB,” and we would be none the wiser.

 

[Penny_Plain]

… and take the plank out of your own eye before you start performing optical surgery on others. I’d help you, but I’ve got this Douglas fir in mine…

 

[LilyM]

Of course, the friend might just simply say, “NOYB,” and we would be none the wiser.

I didn’t mean that OP should ask the friend - and I certainly would say ‘NOYB’ myself to any such impertinent questions about my private life from someone who isn’t my spouse or boyfriend!

I meant that IF the friend volunteered information to the effect that she was sleeping with her same-sex ‘friend’, THEN take the course advised.

 

[blessedtoo]

I meant that IF the friend volunteered information to the effect that she was sleeping with her same-sex ‘friend’, THEN take the course advised.

When I returned to the Church, a dear friend of mine, a fallen away Catholic who is a homosexual activist and absolutely engaging in the behavior with his live-in partner, started attending Mass with me. The first few weeks, he did not go up for Communion, knowing (as a former altar boy) that he was in a state of mortal sin. Even aside from the obvious sin of homosexual behavior, he was also in need of Confession because he had not been to Mass in years. However, he decided after one month of Sundays, that God had forgiven him. (Personally, I feel that after seeing EVERYONE in Church receive, he probably figured he couldn’t possibly by the only sinner there.)

I spoke to him directly, reminding him that Confession before Communion was necessary when one was in mortal sin. He chose to disagree. I was distressed so I spoke with my priest from a different Parish. I asked him if I should stop bringing him to Church with me. He told me not do do this, that I should continue to remind him about Confession and pray for him. He did not suggest I speak to the Pastor of the Parish where my friend and I were attending Mass. He advised only that I continue to encourage my friend to go to Confession and pray, pray, pray.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Perhaps she went to confession the day before receiving communion? correct me if I am wrong her. But. for a sin to be forgiven and the confession to be valid the person must repent and promise to not continue in the sin that was confessed. Perhaps she has a partner but is living non-sexually and is chaste? The fact that it is a publicly known makes this unlikely. IMHO for others to know of your sexual orientation you must make the situation known to others.Or is at least chaste since the last confession? Again the intent to sin no more comes to mind.

There seem to be many more variables that could be considered and what you think you know you may not actually know. True but then the public behaviour is what is seen by others. The public perception is also important as it leads others to Christ or away from Christ. /quote]

 

[KathleenElsie]

So, since I’m a guy, and I have a girlfriend, you’d assume we are having relations outside of marraige? If you are living with yourgirlfrind then yes the assumption is there. It is the public perception that leads to the assumption.

Again, how do we know that these two people are having relations of any type? And if they did, how do we know that they haven’t gone to confession, when needed? Just being attracted to someone of the same gender is not sinful, it depend on the actions taken.

 

[KathleenElsie]

It is public sin because she is open gay and living with her lover. Agreed. Even if it was a male and female living together without marriage it would still be public sin.

As for the “God’s police force” comment, that is uncharacteristically pejorative of you to say. You are usually, in fact virtually always, quite charitable and kind in your responses. I am rather taken aback by the seeming hostility here. Or perhaps I have misread this.

I am not coming from the perspective of “enforcement” but of love of neighbor. To ignore the fact that someone is sinning very seriously and then bringing serious guilt and condemnation on themselves by receiving Holy Communion improperly is most hateful. It is like seeing a drowning person and holding a rope, but not throwing it. Agreed. We are indeed our brother and sisters keeper. To talk to the priest about the situation is not gossip. If we remain siled about a sin then are we not helping those that are sinning to sin?

To do what you suggest may imperil the soul of the person and is not an expression of love of a neighbor. Neither, by the way, is to self-righteously confront the person, declare her evil and order her to “repent or else”. Neither is correct to do. To lovingly point out Church teachings and invite the person to return to a state of grace is the correct course of action. A priest is the ideal person to help with this.

We are all called upon to instruct the ignorant and admonish the sinner.

I know I am not the one asked these questions. Yet IMHO, if we truly love our neighbor then we want them to not commit mortal sins nor to lead others into sin. When we ignore the sin going on around us it then becomes “normal” in a society that does not say anything is ever “wrong” just a “choice”. This harms us all. Not just the person committing the sin.

 

[melensdad]

melensdad;2526585:

Perhaps she went to confession the day before receiving communion? correct me if I am wrong her. But. for a sin to be forgiven and the confession to be valid the person must repent and promise to not continue in the sin that was confessed.

Perhaps she has a partner but is living non-sexually and is chaste? The fact that it is a publicly known makes this unlikely. IMHO for others to know of your sexual orientation you must make the situation known to others.Or is at least chaste since the last confession? Again the intent to sin no more comes to mind.

There seem to be many more variables that could be considered and what you think you know you may not actually know. True but then the public behaviour is what is seen by others. The public perception is also important as it leads others to Christ or away from Christ. /quote]
I don’t dispute any of your points but simply want to point out that people are making all sorts of allegations. Judgments if you want to call them that. I was rather of the understanding that we are not the ones who are to judge.

Further we have no idea what is in this individuals heart. Many with SSA are trying to break out of that lifestyle, but we are all sinners and we should embrace them into our churches and help them on their quest toward God.

 

[Penny_Plain]

True but then the public behaviour is what is seen by others. The public perception is also important as it leads others to Christ or away from Christ.

Nonsense.

First of all, the only reason the OP “knows” that the woman is a horribly sinful lesbian is because he works with her. It certainly doesn’t sound like the entire church knows about it, or really anybody else. And, if the entire church did know about it, presumably the priest would as well.

This business about “public perception” is just ridiculous. It is nothing more than an excuse for sticking your nose in where it most definitely does not belong. How this woman conducts her life is between her and God. Not you.

God can take care of His own dignity. He doesn’t need tattletales to help Him.

 

[Scottgun]

Here is an article on Excommunication and barring from communion: mirrorofjustice.com/mirrorofjustice/2004/06/communion_and_e.html

Of note is that one can indeed be barred for manifest grave sin. BUT, note that “manifest” does not merely mean “public”:

For a sin to be manifest, it is not enough that it be public or even notorious; it must also be so habitual that it constitutes an objectively sinful lifestyle or occupation.

The op’s scenario does not qualify as far as I can see.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Penny Plain:
You can disagree with me all you want. It is your right. But IMHO perception is sometimes the only thing that causes one to turn toward something or against something originally. It is in the nature of humans to observe others. It is why we are to provide a good example for our children. Actions speak louder and are more observed by others then words.

God Bless

 

[KathleenElsie]

Here is an article on Excommunication and barring from communion: mirrorofjustice.com/mirrorofjustice/2004/06/communion_and_e.html

Of note is that one can indeed be barred for manifest grave sin. BUT, note that “manifest” does not merely mean “public”:

The op’s scenario does not qualify as far as I can see.

My questions are this. Not the OP scenario.

If I watch someone committing suicide and do nothing about it am I then committing a sin?
Do I as a compassionate Catholic just stand by and watch while some is killing themselves spiritually?
Or do I take the situation to the priest quietly explain and ask what can be done?
I want everyone to be saved and go to heaven. If I knowingly don’t gently try to turn someone toward God and Heaven then I will have to answer to God for my neglect.

 

[Scottgun]

My questions are this. Not the OP scenario.

If I watch someone committing suicide and do nothing about it am I then committing a sin?
Do I as a compassionate Catholic just stand by and watch while some is killing themselves spiritually?
Or do I take the situation to the priest quietly explain and ask what can be done?
I want everyone to be saved and go to heaven. If I knowingly don’t gently try to turn someone toward God and Heaven then I will have to answer to God for my neglect.

I wasn’t addressing your comments or questions as worthy as they are. Just providing information and establishing that it is possible to get barred from communion for manifest sins.

 

[Penny_Plain]

Penny Plain:
You can disagree with me all you want. It is your right. But IMHO perception is sometimes the only thing that causes one to turn toward something or against something originally. It is in the nature of humans to observe others. It is why we are to provide a good example for our children. Actions speak louder and are more observed by others then words.

God Bless

That may be true, but it does not give us the right to dictate to others how they should live their lives.

Turning to the issue of children for a second: Do the OP’s children know this woman is a lesbian? Do they understand what a lesbian is? Do they know that she is behaving sinfully? Have they even noticed that she exists?

This is snooping. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

[rpp]

Here is an article on Excommunication and barring from communion: mirrorofjustice.com/mirrorofjustice/2004/06/communion_and_e.html

Of note is that one can indeed be barred for manifest grave sin. BUT, note that “manifest” does not merely mean “public”:

The op’s scenario does not qualify as far as I can see.

While excommunication does bar a person from receiving Holy Communion, there are other things that bar a person as well. A person can be placed under interdict. This is done for less serious reasons.

The Church desires that people repent. Failing that, that they at least recognize that they are not in a state to receive Holy Communion and voluntarily decline to receive.

Excommunication is a the most powerful weapon the Church has at it’s disposal. It should and does use it with great caution. I may have missed it, but I do not believe anyone suggested that this woman be excommunicated.

 

[BigFeet]

That may be true, but it does not give us the right to dictate to others how they should live their lives.

Turning to the issue of children for a second: Do the OP’s children know this woman is a lesbian? Do they understand what a lesbian is? Do they know that she is behaving sinfully? Have they even noticed that she exists?

This is snooping. Nothing more. Nothing less.

And do we know that a pregnant woman entering an abortion clinic is actually going to have an abortion? Do we know that a man pointing a gun at a couple in an alley is actually robbing them? Do we know that paint is wet just because we see somebody painting?

I think we need to use a little common sense.

And please go back and read post #23. By helping to guide somebody away from a path to hell, we are not “dictating to others”. Where’s your Christian charity?

 

[Penny_Plain]

And please go back and read post #23. By helping to guide somebody away from a path to hell, we are not “dictating to others”. Where’s your Christian charity?

Yes, you are dictating to others, actually.

I agree that there are times when we have a responsibility to provide moral guidance to others. Our children. Our families. Our close friends. Our parishoners, if we are priests. Our students, if we are teachers.

But I don’t think that duty extends to casual acquaintances, especially when the basis for the moral guidance is … uh … SPECULATIVE.

But BigFeet, I am impressed by your apparent ability to detect lesbianism. You must be a big hit at cocktail parties!

 

[LilyM]

My questions are this. Not the OP scenario.

If I watch someone committing suicide and do nothing about it am I then committing a sin?
Do I as a compassionate Catholic just stand by and watch while some is killing themselves spiritually?
Or do I take the situation to the priest quietly explain and ask what can be done?
I want everyone to be saved and go to heaven. If I knowingly don’t gently try to turn someone toward God and Heaven then I will have to answer to God for my neglect.

But you AREN’T seeing someone killing themselves spiritually here - they may not even be remotely sick. They very likely suffer from SSA which is perfectly well in check and be living in a way which isn’t sinful at all.

AND you sticking your nose into their lovelife, or the priest barring them from communion (except when they ARE openly and manifestly living in grave sin) will be much MUCH more likely to turn them away from the Church and Christ than draw them towards it. For which you also will have to answer to God.

 

[KathleenElsie]

But you AREN’T seeing someone killing themselves spiritually here - they may not even be remotely sick. They very likely suffer from SSA which is perfectly well in check and be living in a way which isn’t sinful at all. I did not say it was in this case. Remember I said to ignore the OP’s situation.

AND you sticking your nose into their lovelife, or the priest barring them from communion (except when they ARE openly and manifestly living in grave sin) will be much MUCH more likely to turn them away from the Church and Christ than draw them towards it. For which you also will have to answer to God.

You again went back to the OP. Why not answer the questions I asked insted of flaming me please?

Also in my own person opinion there is lovelife (as in caring for another) and sexlife (as in physical relations with another person). People of the same sex can have a lovelife without sin being involved. People of the same sex can not have a sex life without sin being involved. Big difference.

 

[Penny_Plain]

Disagreeing is not flaming. But I’ll give it a go.

My questions are this. Not the OP scenario.

If I watch someone committing suicide and do nothing about it am I then committing a sin?

That depends on several things. Are you sure you’ve interpreted the situation correctly? Are you able to make things better by intervening? Who is the person? How are they “committing suicide”?

For example: We all know smoking is bad for you. Smokers get lung cancer at an appalling rate. If you see somebody smoking on the street, do you have a duty to go and tell them the risks of smoking? What if you’re pretty sure they already know? What if it’s your child? What if you see a really fat person in line at Burger King?

Do I as a compassionate Catholic just stand by and watch while some is killing themselves spiritually?

Maybe. Are you sure you understand the situation correctly? Are you able to make things better by intervening? Are you sure that the person who’s supposedly “killing themselves spiritually” doesn’t know the teaching?

Where do you stop? The papers are full of stories about people who might be killing themselves spiritually. Do you, as a compassionate Catholic, have an obligation to go to every single divorced and remarried Catholic that you hear about and remind them of the Church’s teachings in that area? Are you doing that? If not, why not?

Why is it that these forums always somehow seem to be concerned about lecturing homosexuals? Do you or the original poster feel any need to warn the priest about divorced and remarried Catholics who are receiving Communion? Or the guy who only goes to Mass on Christmas and Easter? If not, why not?

Or do I take the situation to the priest quietly explain and ask what can be done?

I’m sure the priest would appreciate somebody else telling him how to do his job, which he MAY BE DOING ALREADY and you don’t know about it because it’s none of your business.

I want everyone to be saved and go to heaven. If I knowingly don’t gently try to turn someone toward God and Heaven then I will have to answer to God for my neglect.

You don’t get to save everybody. You can’t. Your obligation is to take care of you and (to the best that you can) yours and trust everybody else to the mercy of God. I feel for you – it must be a terrible burden to believe that the eternal destiny of people you don’t even know is in your hands.

It’s not. It’s in theirs and God’s. Be easier on yourself.