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GiftofMercy
Guest
Have you heard of the Ten Commandments?
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EndTimes
Guest
The MOSAIC law contains how many laws again? 613?
Have any besides Messiah Jesus fulfilled them?
It is the 2 Great Commands of God - which in turn encompass BOTH the Law and the Prophets which Now are to be Obeyed.
Have you read the New Testament - and to keep this shorter - in particular long sections from Paul Epistles in which he addresses this very Subject and clearly lays out Teachings on how the Mosaic laws had not nor can not Save anyone…?
Beyond that - the NT has many references to FAITH as being the Key which Opens the Door to GOD… and ‘hopefully’ Hope.
That said, it is Love/Charity toward others in Action which is essential - for that represents what our Obedience to God’s Command is in praxis…
Of which sections on Judgement Day likewise show that.
How does one inherit Eternal Life? Asked a Lawyer to Jesus…
Considering our Sinful Nature - THIS one can only do - via in some form or manner - FAITH in Jesus - as we now Worship in Spirit - God’s Holy Spirit.
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Have any besides Messiah Jesus fulfilled them?
It is the 2 Great Commands of God - which in turn encompass BOTH the Law and the Prophets which Now are to be Obeyed.
Have you read the New Testament - and to keep this shorter - in particular long sections from Paul Epistles in which he addresses this very Subject and clearly lays out Teachings on how the Mosaic laws had not nor can not Save anyone…?
Beyond that - the NT has many references to FAITH as being the Key which Opens the Door to GOD… and ‘hopefully’ Hope.
That said, it is Love/Charity toward others in Action which is essential - for that represents what our Obedience to God’s Command is in praxis…
Of which sections on Judgement Day likewise show that.
How does one inherit Eternal Life? Asked a Lawyer to Jesus…
Considering our Sinful Nature - THIS one can only do - via in some form or manner - FAITH in Jesus - as we now Worship in Spirit - God’s Holy Spirit.
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GiftofMercy
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Are you asking if anyone besides Jesus has kept any of the Commandments? Are you asking if anyone besides Jesus has honored their parents, not murdered, not stolen, not coveted their neighbour’s possessions, not worshipped false idols, not said the Lord’s name in vain, and kept the day of the Lord holy, (be it the Sabbath as a Jew or Sunday as a Christian)…
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EndTimes
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No. I’m rhetorically (name removed by moderator)lying that no one save JESUS fulfilled the law… .
And as for the 10 Commandments - ALL OF THEM?
Consider this from the NewTestamant/Covenant… Paul.
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Righteousness Through Faith
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.
He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
And as for the 10 Commandments - ALL OF THEM?
Consider this from the NewTestamant/Covenant… Paul.
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Righteousness Through Faith
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.
He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
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nfinke
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I don’t know what the church’s stance is specifically, but in my opinion, the parts of the Bible ranked in order of importance are:
- The gospels
- The Torah
- The rest of the new testament
- The OT prophets and wisdom
- The OT historical books
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EndTimes
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FYI – From The Vatican - Catechism of The Catholic Church.
- PART ONE – THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
- SECTION ONE — “I BELIEVE” - “WE BELIEVE”
- CHAPTER TWO — GOD COMES TO MEET MAN
- ARTICLE 3 – SACRED SCRIPTURE
- IN BRIEF
- 134 All Sacred Scripture is but one book, and this one book is Christ, “because all divine Scripture speaks of Christ, and all divine Scripture is fulfilled in Christ” (Hugh of St. Victor, De arca Noe 2,8
L 176,642: cf. ibid. 2,9L 176,642-643). - 135 “The Sacred Scriptures contain the Word of God and, because they are inspired, they are truly the Word of God” (DV 24).
- 136 God is the author of Sacred Scripture because he inspired its human authors; he acts in them and by means of them. He thus gives assurance that their writings teach without error his saving truth (cf. DV 11).
- 137 Interpretation of the inspired Scripture must be attentive above all to what God wants to reveal through the sacred authors for our salvation. What comes from the Spirit is not fully "understood except by the Spirit’s action’ (cf. Origen, Hom. in Ex. 4, 5: PG 12, 320).
- 138 The Church accepts and venerates as inspired the 46 books of the Old Testament and the 27 books of the New.
- 139 The four Gospels occupy a central place because Christ Jesus is their center.
- 140 The unity of the two Testaments proceeds from the unity of God’s plan and his Revelation. The Old Testament prepares for the New and the New Testament fulfills the Old; the two shed light on each other; both are true Word of God.
- 141 “The Church has always venerated the divine Scriptures as she venerated the Body of the Lord” (DV 21): both nourish and govern the whole Christian life. “Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path” (Ps 119:105; cf. Is 50:4).
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GiftofMercy
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People lose me when they start quoting and misquoting the Bible in attempting to bolster their points or arguments. To take a verse out of context of its neighbouring verses, chapter and book is to misquote . This is because the rest of the verses surrounding it and the chapter and book shed light on the context. Especially in the Hebrew Bible Old Testament.
I think you might be confusing several of the Old Testament concepts.
WE are all called to fulfil the Law of God. WE are all called to keep the Law of God. And As Christians that law of God is the 10 Commandments, the first or most important of the Torah 600 plus. Other commandments of those 600 are simply not relevant to Christians or/and are not relevant to today’s society and law. Or there are those Jesus modified, such as an eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth, or we have to love everyone , even our enemy. Or the coveting someone else’s wife expanded to even if we lust after that person we have committed adultery in our heart.
None of us can fulfil the prophecies of Jesus except God Himself in His incarnation as Jesus.
The Jewish expectation of a Messiah coming was prophecy.
Please if you want to continue this discussion with me, stop quoting random Bible verses.
Jesus fulfilled the prophecies about Him, All of them.
I think you might be confusing several of the Old Testament concepts.
WE are all called to fulfil the Law of God. WE are all called to keep the Law of God. And As Christians that law of God is the 10 Commandments, the first or most important of the Torah 600 plus. Other commandments of those 600 are simply not relevant to Christians or/and are not relevant to today’s society and law. Or there are those Jesus modified, such as an eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth, or we have to love everyone , even our enemy. Or the coveting someone else’s wife expanded to even if we lust after that person we have committed adultery in our heart.
None of us can fulfil the prophecies of Jesus except God Himself in His incarnation as Jesus.
The Jewish expectation of a Messiah coming was prophecy.
Please if you want to continue this discussion with me, stop quoting random Bible verses.
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EndTimes
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Please… They are not Bible Verses: cherry-picked or appropriate…! … .And That (at least my last post) is Catholic Church Magisterium! … And if you want to continue with me, please to stop attempting to block Source materials!
God’s Two Great Commands, aka The Shema / Golden Rule -
encompasses those 10 Commandments and more! …
I’m fully aware that many (not all) Jews of Jesus’ time
failed to recognize the Messiah of all - at His coming
I’m aware some non-Christian religious Jews of Today
await their understanding of Messiah …
and how some believe that - that event is imminent
The fulfillment of the law via JESUS alone - ushered in the New Covenant - of which in turn, yes, Salvation does not sit upon The Mosaic Laws - but upon FAITH In Jesus - The Son of God …
God’s Two Great Commands, aka The Shema / Golden Rule -
encompasses those 10 Commandments and more! …
I’m fully aware that many (not all) Jews of Jesus’ time
failed to recognize the Messiah of all - at His coming
I’m aware some non-Christian religious Jews of Today
await their understanding of Messiah …
and how some believe that - that event is imminent
The fulfillment of the law via JESUS alone - ushered in the New Covenant - of which in turn, yes, Salvation does not sit upon The Mosaic Laws - but upon FAITH In Jesus - The Son of God …
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meltzerboy2
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The notion of salvation is a Christian belief, not a Jewish one. The Mosaic Law was never intended for the purpose of salvation, at least not in the way Christianity uses the term. The Torah was and is intended as a means of living life to the fullest, with substance, meaning, and purpose, because the only way to do that is by means of living the Law in one’s daily life here on Earth. That is the only sense of personal salvation given by Ancient Judaism, no matter what the sect: Pharisee, Sadducee, Essene, or any of the other twenty odd Jewish sects of ancient times. It is also the only meaning of personal salvation given by Modern Judaism, in accord with Pharasaic tradition, for the most part. This does not mean heaven is rejected but a personal heavenly salvation is not the ultimate meaning of Judaism or the Torah. However, collective salvation and survival of the Jewish people, that is another thing. The Messianic era is meant to witness the return of the tribes to their homeland, peace among the nations of the world, and the universal worship of One G-d in the form of even more intensive studying and practicing of the Torah by the Jewish people and anyone else who chooses to convert to Judaism with no forced conversion permitted or necessary.
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Pattylt
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May I ask, what is meant by saying Jesus fulfilled the Law?
If it just means He fulfilled prophesy, then I understand the statement but if one means He fulfilled the Law, how? How does one go about fulfilling the command to not eat shellfish or mixing fibers? Those seem to have been abrogated, but fulfilled doesn’t make any sense in this context. Can anyone help me out? Thanks.
If it just means He fulfilled prophesy, then I understand the statement but if one means He fulfilled the Law, how? How does one go about fulfilling the command to not eat shellfish or mixing fibers? Those seem to have been abrogated, but fulfilled doesn’t make any sense in this context. Can anyone help me out? Thanks.
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meltzerboy2
Guest
I think the Christian belief is that Jesus, by taking upon Himself the sins of humanity through His suffering and death, fulfilled the obligation of the Law, at least the ceremonial requirements if not the moral responsibility. Thus the sanctification of mankind is no longer through the Law but rather through the belief in Jesus.
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EndTimes
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The notion of salvation is a Christian belief, not a Jewish one. The Mosaic Law was never intended for the purpose of salvation, at least not in the way Christianity uses the term. The Torah was and is intended as a means of living life to the fullest, with substance, meaning, and purpose, because the only way to do that is by means of living the Law in one’s daily life here on Earth. That is the only sense of personal salvation given by Ancient Judaism, no matter what the sect: Pharisee, Sadducee, Essene, or any of the other twenty odd Jewish sects of ancient times. It is also the only meaning of personal salvation given by Modern Judaism, in accord with Pharasaic tradition, for the most part. This does not mean heaven is rejected but a personal heavenly salvation is not the ultimate meaning of Judaism or the Torah. However, collective salvation and survival of the Jewish people, that is another thing. The Messianic era is meant to witness the return of the tribes to their homeland, peace among the nations of the world, and the universal worship of One G-d in the form of even more intensive studying and practicing of the Torah by the Jewish people and anyone else who chooses to convert to Judaism with no forced conversion permitted or necessary.
I appreciate what you’ve said… yet let it also be said that that POV is also viewed as the POV of those Jews who did not recognize JESUS as Messiah versus those e.g., Jews (including Jewish Jesus) and more - who did… Got that?
Additionally … one of the varying sects - of whatever “religion” one chooses to give name to in the 1st Century AD in Judea, etc… - is that of Jesus’ Mission of primarily going to and Preaching TO the Jews. which is in turn conspicuously missing in your POV- for probable reason that that became the one Rejected by some - not all…
And for that reason, JESUS is likewise viewed and accepted as being The Proper Continuation of TORAH and PROPHETS - aka He is the Promised Messiah… by both some Jews and some Gentiles of Today…
That said - that above could be viewed as a brief encapsulation of what separates non-Christians - whether Jew or not - from Christians (followers of Jesus, the Christ/Messiah)
Rather than theologically wrangle for another hypothesized 2000 years of Your POV vs My POV of what went down, etc, moving along with a look to Today and our Future, I’d rather discuss with someone knowledgeable on the respective views on the coming Messiah… with those from Catholicism and Rabbinical Judaism who believe and await the End of Days and/or End Times are on their way…
I appreciate what you’ve said… yet let it also be said that that POV is also viewed as the POV of those Jews who did not recognize JESUS as Messiah versus those e.g., Jews (including Jewish Jesus) and more - who did… Got that?
Additionally … one of the varying sects - of whatever “religion” one chooses to give name to in the 1st Century AD in Judea, etc… - is that of Jesus’ Mission of primarily going to and Preaching TO the Jews. which is in turn conspicuously missing in your POV- for probable reason that that became the one Rejected by some - not all…
And for that reason, JESUS is likewise viewed and accepted as being The Proper Continuation of TORAH and PROPHETS - aka He is the Promised Messiah… by both some Jews and some Gentiles of Today…
That said - that above could be viewed as a brief encapsulation of what separates non-Christians - whether Jew or not - from Christians (followers of Jesus, the Christ/Messiah)
Rather than theologically wrangle for another hypothesized 2000 years of Your POV vs My POV of what went down, etc, moving along with a look to Today and our Future, I’d rather discuss with someone knowledgeable on the respective views on the coming Messiah… with those from Catholicism and Rabbinical Judaism who believe and await the End of Days and/or End Times are on their way…
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Pattylt
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That makes more sense but then why the comment of no jot or tittle?
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meltzerboy2
Guest
Continuing with my defense of Christianity, I would say that by means of Jesus’ Passion and death, He became the Law Himself, so that faith in Jesus is fulfillment of one’s responsibility regarding the Law without changing any of its requirements by one iota.
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EndTimes
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Yet… One cannot negate the Immense Gulf of the Spiritual element of Faith whereby now, since the Redeemer has nailed Death to the Cross, believers with Faith have come to Know God dwelling within them. Guiding them…
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meltzerboy2
Guest
I don’t understand your point here. You seem to be talking about the Holy Spirit, but what is the “immense Gulf of the Spiritual element of Faith” you are referring to?
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EndTimes
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The events at Pentecost clearly illustrate this “gulf”… Now, in a most dynamic manner, God has returned to and dwells withIn those who’d accepted our Lord. Are you familiar? Or shall I post them from Sacred Scriptures for the edification of any thus unfamiliar with them?
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meltzerboy2
Guest
I am familiar with the events but you can post them if you wish. Thanks for the clarification.
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GiftofMercy
Guest
what are we discussing, what is our topic? It is Opinion on the Torah. We are required to stick to this topic. If the Magisterium has published an opinion on the Torah, then paste that. You are going way off topic with your replies. And pasting material unrelated to the topic.
The Shema is a prayer recited by Jews and Catholic religious in certain communities daily.
It has two sources. This topic is not about the prophecies, but about Law.
You are confusing Narrative in the Old Testament with prophecy in the Old Testament with legal narrative and code in the Old Testament.
The op asked this question
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EndTimes
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Gift of Mercy — I’d already addressed what I think/know about the Torah. Threads weave and even grow…
Here in case you missed it…
The Torah/Pentateuch is part of the Old Testament portion of Sacred Scriptures aka “The Bible”.
It is part of God’s Revelation to Man - and can be more fully Understood in the Light of Its further revelations of Jesus’ Gospel and the rest of the New Testament…
PS - Indeed Jews of Jesus’ Time were aware of Heaven and Achieving it…
Recall… It was a Lawyer who asked Jesus: "Rabbi-- How Do I Inherit Eternal Life.? "
They both Agreed that it is Obeying the Shema… Period…
Do you need Chapter and Verse?
Here in case you missed it…
The Torah/Pentateuch is part of the Old Testament portion of Sacred Scriptures aka “The Bible”.
It is part of God’s Revelation to Man - and can be more fully Understood in the Light of Its further revelations of Jesus’ Gospel and the rest of the New Testament…
PS - Indeed Jews of Jesus’ Time were aware of Heaven and Achieving it…
Recall… It was a Lawyer who asked Jesus: "Rabbi-- How Do I Inherit Eternal Life.? "
They both Agreed that it is Obeying the Shema… Period…
Do you need Chapter and Verse?
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