Opinion question: Is Catholicism legalistic?

[NekoNecro]

The main center point of Catholicism is one man who claims to be infallible and rules over one third of the worlds Christian population by decree (in theory). There is no vote, but a veritable pile of laws and codes previously approved. Break one and it’s to hell you go (unless you confess).

… Catholicism is probably the single most legalistic faith in the world, perhaps second only to Confucianism.

 

[Bookcat]

then preach it properly!

We do.

 

[abucs]

Hi Tommy,

I don’t know if ‘legalistic’ is the correct word. I don’t think anyone is going to put someone in handcuffs if they don’t approach the Eucharist in a certain fashion.

A lot of Catholic ritual has rich culture, meaning and history behind it. Rather than ‘legalistic’ I’d categories it as being faithful to the great truths of the Church and becoming aware and respectful of the historicity of the Church’s human journey.

 

[TK421]

@OP:

I think American Catholics often run into the problem of having a poorly-developed conscience that sees the Church as being a collective set of “thou shall nots”, without ever actually allowing their spirituality to flourish. The numbers speak for themselves: American evangelicals donate more of their treasure than Catholics do, because they have a vibrant faith experience. This is something that American dioceses must improve on. It has to do with a weakness in their upbringing rather than a weakness in the Catholic Church.

On the other hand, what we are witnessing right now among protestant Christianity is that without a “a Rock” upon which to base their authority, you see endless splintering and disagreement. They all supposedly claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit, and yet they’re all reaching different conclusions. To me, this says one of two things: either 1) The Holy Spirit is intentionally deceptive and chaotic, or 2) There is a source of protected authority that protestants are missing out on.

 

[pablope]

Okay tommy, If purgatory was real, thats just a simple way to get to heaven and a way to allow sin to carry on because hey we will still go through purgatory, why did jesus die on the cross? To take away our sins? Well if he’s already died, why would Go put you in a cosmic oven to make sure you get to heaven? Its YOLT You only live twice not 3 times, What would be the purpose of purgatory if their is judgement day?

Gabriel…from Heb 10:

22 let us approach with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

When you approach God, on your judgement day…can you be absolutely sure you have no more evil conscience left in you? You have been cleansed of any vestiges of sin?

Do you think if you have sin in you…can you make it inside heaven?

 

[Neofight]

No.

Now, if the question was, “Are some Catholic’s legalistic?” I would say Yes.

But, just as said by Fulton Sheen that few people hate Catholicism, they only hate what they THINK Catholicism is, can also be said by a lot (please notice I did not say all!) of our Catholic brothers and sisters…what they think Catholicism is, often is what makes them overly legalistic, because it does not represent what Catholicism really is.

 

[Bookcat]

then preach it properly!

We do. Above all Jesus Christ himself and his paschal mystery (death and resurrection) - true life is in Christ. It is he whom we propose to all the world.

“Happy are you who believe!” (cf 1 Peter 2:7). Let us turn to Jesus! He alone is the way that leads to eternal happiness, the truth who satisfies the deepest longings of every heart, and the life who brings ever new joy and hope, to us and to our world."

~ Homily at Yankee Stadium by Pope Benedict XVI

 

[Bookcat]

Legalistic? No not per se (sure there are laws etc but that is not the focus…all societies need laws…even the Boy Scouts…)

Here:

““To gaze upon Christ!” If we do this, we realize that Christianity is more than and different from a moral code, from a series of requirements and laws. It is the gift of a friendship that lasts through life and death: “No longer do I call you servants, but friends” (Jn 15:15), the Lord says to his disciples. We entrust ourselves to this friendship. Yet precisely because Christianity is more than a moral system, because it is the gift of friendship, for this reason it also contains within itself great moral strength, which is so urgently needed today on account of the challenges of our time. If with Jesus Christ and his Church we constantly re-read the Ten Commandments of Sinai, entering into their full depth, then a great, valid and lasting teaching unfolds before us. The Ten Commandments are first and foremost a “yes” to God, to a God who loves us and leads us, who carries us and yet allows us our freedom: indeed, it is he who makes our freedom real (the first three commandments). It is a “yes” to the family (fourth commandment), a “yes” to life (fifth commandment), a “yes” to responsible love (sixth commandment), a “yes” to solidarity, to social responsibility and to justice (seventh commandment), a “yes” to truth (eighth commandment) and a “yes” to respect for other people and for what is theirs (ninth and tenth commandments). By the strength of our friendship with the living God we live this manifold “yes” and at the same time we carry it as a signpost into this world of ours today.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI 8 September 2007

““I want them to understand that it is beautiful to be a Christian! The generally prevailing idea is that Christians have to observe an immense number of commandments, prohibitions, precepts, and other such restrictions, so that Christianity is a heavy and oppressive way of living, and it would therefore be more liberating to live without all these burdens. But I would like to make it clear that to be sustained by this great Love and God’s sublime revelation is not a burden, but rather a set of wings—that it is truly beautiful to be a Christian. It is an experience that gives us room to breathe and move, but most of all, it places us within a community since, as Christians, we are never alone: first of all, there is God, who is always with us; secondly, we are always forming a great community among ourselves: a community of people together on a journey, a community with a project for the future. All of this means that we are empowered to live a life worth living. This is the joy of being a Christian: that it is beautiful and right to believe!””

~Pope Benedict XVI 2005

(quotes snipped from Vatican website:vatican.va)

 

[tafan]

Hi,
Areas where I struggle:
– Seems a little legalistic to me, but then again I wasn’t raised Catholic. For example:
I have seen threads where people seem to agonize over what category of sin a certain action falls into and almost the micro-managing of certain aspects of the Catholic’s life, such as “What is the proper posture for someone as they approach the priest to receive the Eucharist?”.

– Some of the beliefs and practices regarding the Virgin Mary almost appear to me to be borderline goddess worship. I believe Mary was a special and godly young woman chosen to be the mother of Christ and therefore deserves special recognition, but I struggle with the level of recognition she receives in some circles, which can take away from attention to Christ, in my opinion.

Question:
Do Catholics on CAF find aspects of Catholicism legalistic or are all the rules and regulations helpful and essential to being a good Catholic?

Thanks again for your time. I am not trying to be argumetative or disrespectful. Just trying to better understand things from the Catholic point of view. Your insights are much appreciated, as usual.

Respectfully,
Tom

Tom, welcome!!! As to your specific question, I do not find aspects of Catholicism legalistic (if by that you mean laws for the sake of laws, which your question seems to imply) and I do think the “rules and regulations” are helpful and essential to being a good Catholic.

Your post gives two aspects of legalistic: one with respect to moral theology and the other with respect to liturgical rules.

With regards to the first: the Church’s moral teachings are a blessing. The bible is full of moral teachings, yet is wide open to mis-interpretation. We need to know sin, we need to know what is right and wrong. Even though one may not be culpable due to ignorance of sin, all sin has an affect on the our lives, on the world at large.

As to the “legalistic” nature of the Church’s rituals and liturgy, that too is a blessing. For the most part, one can go to mass anywhere in the world and feel at home. There is a unity of worship, both across space and across time. We are a communion, we pray as one.

 

[Marie5890]

The main center point of Catholicism is one man who claims to be infallible and rules over one third of the worlds Christian population by decree (in theory). There is no vote, but a veritable pile of laws and codes previously approved. Break one and it’s to hell you go (unless you confess).

… Catholicism is probably the single most legalistic faith in the world, perhaps second only to Confucianism.

Many may not know this, but the Holy Father is above canon law.

 

[mountee]

le·gal·ism [lee-guh-liz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1.
strict adherence, or the principle of strict adherence, to law or prescription,

I think, in many ways, we are very legalistic. And for that I am very thankful.

When it comes to right and wrong, we should not waffle or water down.

Our faith can be found in the CCC which is very difficult reading and available to you for free on-line. If you have the time take a look. There are many challenges for us to liv our lives in a way that is pleasing to God and I am grateful for the guidance found within the Truths of our faith.

 

[Della]

(edited for length) Positives I see in Catholicism:
– Continuity of the Church from end of apostolic times to modern times. Same structure over all that time is impressive. When there is a disagreement, it goes to leadership to decide and the faithful accept and follow the decison instead of creating another denomination if they disagree.

– Biblical authority structure from Jesus Christ to Peter to the series of Popes.

– Hierchical structure based on authority that reminds me almost of a military structure. This structure appears to be very orderly to me and easy to understand and follow.

– Clarity on what is believed and taught.

– Rich tradition, including learning from the lives of the saints and early Church fathers.

These are more than positives. They are evidence that the Catholic Church is the one founded by Christ on the Apostles.

Areas where I struggle:
– Seems a little legalistic to me, but then again I wasn’t raised Catholic. For example:
I have seen threads where people seem to agonize over what category of sin a certain action falls into and almost the micro-managing of certain aspects of the Catholic’s life, such as “What is the proper posture for someone as they approach the priest to receive the Eucharist?”

Jesus gave his Apostles certain charisms (gifts of grace). He promised that they, the Church, would be led into all truth by the Holy Spirit. He gave them the authority to absolve sins. To decide matters of faith and morals. And to govern his Church. This last is where the rules and regs come into play. We see in St. Paul’s epistles, especially that he spent a good deal of his time correcting abuses and governing those communities he had established. The very first Church council in Jerusalem regarded what was expected/not expected of new Gentile Christians. Having to deal with the governance of the Church has been going on since the Apostles met in the upper room and voted to replace Judas as one of their number. It’s a necessary part of running a body that is both divine and earthly.

Question:
Do Catholics on CAF find aspects of Catholicism legalistic or are all the rules and regulations helpful and essential to being a good Catholic?

In a word, no they don’t. Why? Because not all the rules and regs apply to each of us at all times. They are there “in case” various issues need to be dealt with, not to burden anyone. It’s like traffic laws. Who obsesses about running red lights unless they plan on running red lights? And yet we need laws about red lights or people will be injured or killed and property will be damaged. Does that make sense?

– Some of the beliefs and practices regarding the Virgin Mary almost appear to me to be borderline goddess worship. I believe Mary was a special and godly young woman chosen to be the mother of Christ and therefore deserves special recognition, but I struggle with the level of recognition she receives in some circles, which can take away from attention to Christ, in my opinion.

Having also been a member of the AoG I can relate to your misgivings. When I was in the AoG, eons ago it seems now, we were very anti-Marian. It may have changed since then as our Protestant brethren have been looking into Mary more over the last few decades. Anyway, I too had the idea that venerating Mary took some of Jesus’ thunder. In practice, though (and this is so important, I’ll return to this point in a minute) but in practice I found just the opposite to be true. The more I understood Mary and honorer her the more I drew close to Jesus and loved him. Why? Because Mary draws us to her Son. Remember that when she said yes in answer to Gabriel’s announcement she said a total yes. Her life became totally consecrated to serving God, and God alone. She was with her Son at some of the most important moments of his life, especially when she stood in for us at the foot of the cross along with St. John. She was with the Apostles in the Upper Room at Pentecost, gave St. Paul and St. Luke intimate details about Jesus’ early life no others recorded. And I could go on… As to the importance of practicing devotion, it is in prayer that we draw close to God and his saints, who are eager to help us in our earthly struggles and who are constantly praying for us, the Church on earth, as they are the Church in heaven. It’s all tied into the Communion of Saints. Understand that, and you’ll see how Mary fits rightly into place in our hearts and devotion.

Thanks again for your time. I am not trying to be argumetative or disrespectful. Just trying to better understand things from the Catholic point of view. Your insights are much appreciated, as usual.

Respectfully,
Tom

Whenever one looks in from the outside into an institution, another family, or any organization they are bound to have questions about management and other aspects of being a part of that other group. It’s only natural. We’re happy you are willing to understand instead of making knee jerk reactions to things you may not understand.

 

[Tommy999]

Our faith can be found in the CCC which is very difficult reading and available to you for free on-line. If you have the time take a look. There are many challenges for us to liv our lives in a way that is pleasing to God and I am grateful for the guidance found within the Truths of our faith.

CCC? Not sure what this is. Is that the Catechism that I’ve heard people talk about?

 

[Della]

CCC? Not sure what this is. Is that the Catechism that I’ve heard people talk about?

Yes. It is the official catechism of the Church: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM. You can also buy a copy if you wish.

 

[Rin]

Catholicism is not legalistic. I can understand why outsiders may think so, given the high amount of ecclesial law, declarations, dogma and so on. But they are not the focus of our faith; they are tools to help us achieve our goal. Most of them are also a response to past situations - they are there for a reason, not just formulated “because we need a law for this” . They are not the crux of our faith.

There are of course Catholics who are legalistic, though. Just as some Protestants may become so consumed by interpretation of the Bible that they forget what the Bible is really about, some Catholics may become so consumed by their study of ecclesial law that they forget what those laws are really about. This is legalism, and the Catholic version is no better than the other. It is seeing only one aspect of the faith, and letting it overshadow the others.

But all in all, Catholicism is not legalistic. Those who think it is, be they Catholic or non-Catholic, misunderstand the purpose of ecclesial law.

 

[pablope]

These are more than positives. They are evidence that the Catholic Church is the one founded by Christ on the Apostles.

Jesus gave his Apostles certain charisms (gifts of grace). He promised that they, the Church, would be led into all truth by the Holy Spirit. He gave them the authority to absolve sins. To decide matters of faith and morals. And to govern his Church.
The very first Church council in Jerusalem regarded what was expected/not expected of new Gentile Christians. Having to deal with the governance of the Church has been going on since the Apostles met in the upper room and voted to replace Judas as one of their number. It’s a necessary part of running a body that is both divine and earthly.

And Acts 15 recounts the pastoral guidance promulgated by James:

20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood

 

[Convert2013]

I also can see why non-Catholics who aren’t fully familiar with the Church’s teaching, would see it as such - legalistic.

It wasn’t until I understood fully what sins I was actually committing in my life by personal discernment during RCIA, that I was able to live a more joyful and happy life! We as Christians all agree we need to avoid sins. The question is what are they? The Church provides us with a guide to know what they are. And as a result doing a daily examine of conscience regarding what we know (and continue to learn) to be sins and what we may have done or not done that day helps.

As others have mentioned, there are people who struggle with scrupulosity and possibly that is because of other issues such as OCD for example. You will see them here asking all sorts of questions. But please notice the answers to those folks who are struggling daily …that is that they need to get help from a Priest, etc. to overcome that. The folks answering those posts encouraging them to get help are more representative of the overwhelming majority of Catholics. Personally I learn a lot from those posts as I know I have those tendencies. It’s the answers to them that cause me to go back and study what the Church teaches, that is the Word of God. And I find myself gaining even more understanding and growing more as a Christian.

Thanks for posting this as I think it is a great question from a non-Catholic perspective. I hope all the positive answers you received here have helped you in your understanding. Please continue to post & dialogue and thanks for being respectful.

 

[Tommy999]

Wow, thanks to everyone for all the explanations, examples, analogies, and links to look at for more info. A lot of info to research and digest, for sure. Sorry for asking so many questions – I hope you don’t mind. Through your help, I think my level of understanding of Catholicism has grown by leaps and bounds from where I started. Many misconceptions have been clarified and corrected.

Just so that you know – I have never harbored ill will for Catholicism. I just didn’t know much about it growing up and viewed it more as a complicated and mysterious faith that was too mysterious and complicated for me to understand and had a lot of extra baggage that was unnecessary. People tend to make judgments about things they don’t understand, and I was one of them.

The Catholics I knew at work didn’t seem to be very religious except on holy days like Ash Wednesday when they would be sure to stop in my cubicle to show me the ashes on their foreheads or announce what they had given up for Lent. The rest of the time one would have had a hard time discerning they were even Christian by some of their actions.

However, after listening to Catholic radio, shows like ‘Catholic Answers’ and others as well as interfacing with Catholics on CAF, I realize I had an incorrect stereotype of Catholics and that I shouldn’t form an opinion of a whole group based on my interaction with a few. Some of you have blown me out of the water with your patience, understanding, knowledge, and willingness to share your faith in a non-threatening way and I appreciate it alot. You make me feel like an honored guest.

 

[Bookcat]

Some of you have blown me out of the water with your patience, understanding, knowledge, and willingness to share your faith in a non-threatening way and I appreciate it alot. You make me feel like an honored guest.

Ok.

Now go away.

(just kidding, just kidding……could not resist).

 

[Bookcat]

The Catholics I knew at work didn’t seem to be very religious except on holy days like Ash Wednesday when they would be sure to stop in my cubicle to show me the ashes on their foreheads or announce what they had given up for Lent. The rest of the time one would have had a hard time discerning they were even Christian by some of their actions.

As to some Catholics not appearing to live as they ought - well that is true and that is something the Church calls us to help them -hence the call to the “new evangelization” of those who are Christian but have either not known their Faith well and/or who have been caught up into the prevailing culture…

“…we hear the cry of the Apostle to the Gentiles resounding with special urgency: “Woe to me if I do not preach the Gospel!” (1 Cor 9: 16); a cry that becomes for every Christian a pressing invitation to serve Christ. “The harvest is plentiful” (Mt 9: 37) the Divine Teacher still repeats today: so many still do not know him and are awaiting the first proclamation of his Gospel; others, although they received a Christian formation, have become less enthusiastic and retain only a superficial contact with God’s Word; yet others have drifted away from the practice of the faith and need a new evangelization. Then there are plenty of people of right understanding who ask themselves essential questions about the meaning of life and death, questions to which only Christ can give satisfactory answers. It is, therefore, becoming indispensable for Christians on every continent to be ready to reply to those who ask them to account for the hope that is in them (cf. 1 Pt 3: 15), joyfully proclaiming the Word of God and living the Gospel without compromises.”

~ Homily Pope Benedict XVI 5 Oct 2008

“Let us welcome him with faith and adhere generously to his Gospel, as did the privileged witnesses of his Resurrection; and as, some years later, did St Paul who encountered the divine Teacher in an extraordinary manner on the Road to Damascus. We cannot keep for ourselves alone the proclamation of this Truth that changes the life of all”. Aud 4-15-09
~ Pope Benedict XVI

""The great danger in today’s world, pervaded as it is by consumerism, is the desolation and anguish born of a complacent yet covetous heart, the feverish pursuit of frivolous pleasures, and a blunted conscience. Whenever our interior life becomes caught up in its own interests and concerns, there is no longer room for others, no place for the poor. God’s voice is no longer heard, the quiet joy of his love is no longer felt, and the desire to do good fades. This is a very real danger for believers too. Many fall prey to it, and end up resentful, angry and listless. That is no way to live a dignified and fulfilled life; it is not God’s will for us, nor is it the life in the Spirit which has its source in the heart of the risen Christ.

I invite all Christians, everywhere, at this very moment, to a renewed personal encounter with Jesus Christ, or at least an openness to letting him encounter them; I ask all of you to do this unfailingly each day. No one should think that this invitation is not meant for him or her, since “no one is excluded from the joy brought by the Lord”.[1] The Lord does not disappoint those who take this risk; whenever we take a step towards Jesus, we come to realize that he is already there, waiting for us with open arms. Now is the time to say to Jesus: “Lord, I have let myself be deceived; in a thousand ways I have shunned your love, yet here I am once more, to renew my covenant with you. I need you. Save me once again, Lord, take me once more into your redeeming embrace”. How good it feels to come back to him whenever we are lost! Let me say this once more: God never tires of forgiving us; we are the ones who tire of seeking his mercy. Christ, who told us to forgive one another “seventy times seven” (Mt 18:22) has given us his example: he has forgiven us seventy times seven. Time and time again he bears us on his shoulders. No one can strip us of the dignity bestowed upon us by this boundless and unfailing love. With a tenderness which never disappoints, but is always capable of restoring our joy, he makes it possible for us to lift up our heads and to start anew. Let us not flee from the resurrection of Jesus, let us never give up, come what will. May nothing inspire more than his life, which impels us onwards! "

~ Pope Francis Evangellii Gaudium (the Joy of the Gospel).

(vatican.va)