Opinions needed

[Island_Oak]

jzepi:

Island, re-read your first post in this thread where you offer your opinion indirectly – by dissecting and ridiculing somebody else’s.

Would that, in your view of reality, qualify as judgmental ?
How about self-righteous ? Arrogant ? Contemptuous ?

I do not believe you are the one to “judge” me as judgmental, no matter how many misinformed posts you have churned out.

Yep, that was a nerve. Oh, and let me be the first to formally welcome you to CAF–let the churning begin!

 

[Island_Oak]

StubbleSpark:

You draw the line at orgies. That is a sign that you also have limits to which your own logic will not take you. This means your reasoning is flawed because it conflicts with your conscience.

While the “avoid them all” attitude can lead to a solitary existence, I have seen much bitter loneliness in a crowded room of revelers but none in the desert hermitage. More often than not, people who let themselves be swept away by the fear that their beliefs will leave them isolated end up abandoned and desperate – spent rags of the a materialistic world.

“Loneliness” is not a word in the Christian vocabulary. Do not be swayed by juvenile peer pressure.

Trust me, at 40 I’m WELL past the pulls of “juvenile peer pressure.” If I weren’t I certainly wouldn’t be making a stab at this Catholic thing–I think the secularists probably have a lot of fun. However, I hardly find your “hermit in the desert” argument compelling. True, some in this world seek solitude–prayer, contemplation, mental illness are three possible explanations. I will never be one of those people…but it has nothing to do with fear or pressure. Enjoying the gift of friendship is a treasure. I just choose not to look a gift horse in the mouth.

 

[Island_Oak]

fix:

You hit the nail on the head. This idea that because Christ ate with sinners we get a free pass to associate with public sinners for social reasons or to have a party is really outrageous. Perhaps we should attend a crack party, or a wife swapping party? Apparently we have lost the power to discern and justly discriminate.

Not remotely comparable. I noted earlier that if the purpose of the party is an immoral activity there is no justification to attending.

 

[fix]

Island Oak:

Not remotely comparable. I noted earlier that if the purpose of the party is an immoral activity there is no justification to attending.

Notorious sin is notorious sin. Living a “gay” life is sinful and a scandal.

 

[char34]

In my opinion (as well as the opinion of a couple of priests I asked) it would not be wrong to attend a social event, as long as you are not actually supporting or congratulating them for sinning, for instance I probably wouldn’t attend a gay wedding as the purpose for me being there would be to support the relationship itself.

While I do not personally know any gay couples, I do know some in laws who live together outside of marriage. If my sister in law invited me for her daughter’s birthday, I would attend for that reason, but would not feel comfortable attending for a housewarming party or something which would force me to show support for the couple, yet I have not been in such a situation. Usually get togethers would be for family events or holidays.

What is interesting is my in laws (parents in particular )have actually kept their distance from us as the years went on, due to our lifestyle! They disagree with our rejection of birth control, and go to great lengths to prove it, including not associating with us often.I cannot be accused of being judgemental because I didn’t reject them, but outsiders will realize they are actually being judgemental, and maybe Christians aren’t so “judgemental” and intolerant after all? So associating with other 'sinners" does have an effect on others, contrary to what others here have said, even if you’re just celebrating with them. Sometimes the effect is positive, sometimes negative. Almost every social event someone asks me why I decided to have soo many kids, and a conversation can go on from there, you don’t have to preach to others to have an effect on them!

I think you have to give others a little credit, the fact that you go to a party of theirs isn’t automatically going to make them think you approve of their sins if they know you are a practicing Catholic. Finally, I’m a little confused, maybe this was already mentioned, how is inviting a gay couple to your home not scandalous, but visiting them is always scandalous? Aren’t they just as bad an example (say, for your kids) at your house?

 

[debbie_m]

As I said earlier, their home is a public sign of their sin. Why do they need to live in the same home and sleep in the same bed? Guess?

Anyway, I am curious about how those who are in favour of attending a Christmas party at a homosexual couple’s home would respond to these questions so that I can comprehend where you’re coming from:

Would you attend a Christmas party at a home where they are polygamists (have more than one spouse, usually the husband has multiple wives)?

Would you attend a Christmas party at a known house of prostitution (assume that it is not a sex party)?

Looking forward to your answers.

God bless,
Debbie

 

[Exporter]

Your conscience will tell you what to do. Will you feel uncomfortable by attending? If you will feel uncomfortable ------ then don’t go!

 

[sbcoral]

What if this homosexual couple is not having homosexual sex? That’s the sin, right? Being gay isn’t a sin.

Maybe juliet(name removed by moderator) should call this couple, inquire if they have recently had gay sex, and base her decision to attend on that. Perhaps they are gay but living a chaste life; then it would be OK to attend the party surely.

I am like Solomon when it comes to wise advice, aren’t I?

 

[sbcoral]

fix:

Notorious sin is notorious sin. Living a “gay” life is sinful and a scandal.

Does not compute. What is a gay life, and how is that sinful? Isn’t the only sin the sex part? Is being neat and well-dressed and funny and interested in Broadway musicals itself a sin?

 

[jzepi]

Island Oak:

Yep, that was a nerve. Oh, and let me be the first to formally welcome you to CAF–let the churning begin!

Thanks (although you are not the first to formally welcome me ). Also I would like to apologize for my inflammatory choice of words in some of my posts.

 

[jzepi]

Island Oak:

…merely attending an event, which does not have as its purpose the promotion of anything immoral, cannot reasonably or logically be construed to lend a stamp of approval to unrelated (sinful) acts of the hosts.

Let’s pretend I am invited to a Christmas party by a doctor in my neighborhood who is “out and proud” about performing abortions in a clinic in my town. You find out that I have gone to his party and laughed merrily all night with him and his friends. I never said a word about anything we might disagree upon, since the purpose of the party had nothing to do with abortion.

Wouldn’t you allow that this could reasonably and logically be construed as me lending a stamp of approval to unrelated (sinful) acts of the host ?

Failing that, would you at the very least allow that this could reasonably be perceived as me making it known, in my neighborhood, that, while I may well think abortion is less than ideal, I don’t think abortion is anything to get upset about, since it would be reasonable to conclude that I have put my enjoyment of the party as a higher priority ?

To continue the illustration, let’s say that around this same Christmas season, my neighbor, a teenage girl who is pregnant with her boyfriend’s baby, knows that I am a Catholic and respects me. She is struggling with the decision to abort her child, and her boyfriend, a very attractive and persuasive but morally unschooled man, points out that I, a Catholic who she knows and respects, have attended this party with the abortion doctor. He points this out to her as evidence that it will be ok, and to cajole her into agreeing with his wishes and going through with the abortion. Ultimately, she does go through with the abortion. And part of her rationalization was that I, a knowledgeable Catholic that she respects, gave her the impression I thought it was ok.

This is reasonable and logical, is it not ? It is not out of the realm of possibility I don’t think.

Just at least give it some thought.

 

[sbcoral]

The thing is, we are all sinners. The gay couple is presumably having gay sex, thus sinning. If we decline the invitation to the party because of our presumption that they are living in a state of sin, then we will have to decline the invitations to many, many parties. Everyone sins, more or less; some people sin in a manner that the public is aware of it (like gay couples, who presumably have gay sex around the clock), and some people sin in a more discreet manner (looking at porn on the internet at home, etc). These are still sins, and the fact that we might be aware of someone’s sin doesn’t affect how we should treat him or her. We should treat everyone with respect, recognizing that we really are not better than anyone else. Treating people with respect doesn’t mean that we condone their sins, it just means that we respect them for what they are - human beings just like us, fallible and weak, but certainly good at heart.

 

[theTaxCollector]

sbcoral:

The thing is, we are all sinners. The gay couple is presumably having gay sex, thus sinning. If we decline the invitation to the party because of our presumption that they are living in a state of sin, then we will have to decline the invitations to many, many parties. Everyone sins, more or less; some people sin in a manner that the public is aware of it …

For me personally, it’s quite possible that attending the party would lead me into temptation and possibly sin. Unfortunately, my judgemental side might come out uncharitably, either externally or internally, because I have trouble expressing my thoughts.

I would not go.

 

[cyprian]

are we confusing respect with accept, like we confuse tolerance with permissiveness? How can we look the other way and write the check, so to speak.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Charlemagne:

Jesus knew these peoples sins and knew when they repented of them because He is GOD! I would never compare myself to Him when speaking of avoiding contact with sinners. Failure to admonish the sinner/condemn the sin if the subject comes up is sinful it itself - “Before the cock crows twice, you will deny me three times.” If you don’t speak up for the teachings of the Church, you’re denying Christ.

Did Peter fail to point out someone’s sins three times before the cock crowed? No. He literally denied that he knew who Jesus was. There is a third way between accepting sin and refusing contact with someone you judge to be a worse sinner than yourself. Here is another saying of Jesus:

“Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven… Why do you notice the splinter in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own? How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me remove that splinter in your eye,” when you do not even notice the wooden beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! Remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter in your brother’s eye." Luke 6:36-37, 41-42

Those who have had a wooden beam removed from their own eye speak as if they know it. They act as if they know it, for they are grateful for the great gift of sight, knowing still that they see imperfectly, and greatly compassionate to anyone who suffers from the loss they themselves have suffered. They would never think it okay to just leave the wood in there.

 

[4_marks]

juliet(name removed by moderator):

Part of my feeling is that going to the party is saying that we not only accept but condone his homosexual lifestyle. There are other friends of ours that will be at the party that I would like to see. I have no problem with homosexuals in general (love the man, hate the sin philosophy) but I would like some (name removed by moderator)ut from others on this situation. Thanks in advance.

Jesus ate with prostitutes, tax collectors, drunkards and sinners. By doing so, did he condone their lifestyles? Go…enjoy…and share the love of Christ who dwells within you.

 

[fix]

sbcoral:

Does not compute. What is a gay life, and how is that sinful? Isn’t the only sin the sex part? Is being neat and well-dressed and funny and interested in Broadway musicals itself a sin?

Those that use the term gay almost always endorse that agenda. When I see that word used, instead of homosexual or SSA, I know that the user accepts the secular notions of homosexual conduct as acceptable.

This thread is about scandal and giving the impression public sin is acceptable.

 

[fix]

4 marks:

Jesus ate with prostitutes, tax collectors, drunkards and sinners. By doing so, did he condone their lifestyles? Go…enjoy…and share the love of Christ who dwells within you.

Christ ate with sinners and called them to conversion. He did not eat with them to sip cocktails and engage to polite chatter.

 

[fix]

BLB_Oregon:

Did Peter fail to point out someone’s sins three times before the cock crowed? No. He literally denied that he knew who Jesus was. There is a third way between accepting sin and refusing contact with someone you judge to be a worse sinner than yourself. Here is another saying of Jesus:

“Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven… Why do you notice the splinter in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own? How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me remove that splinter in your eye,” when you do not even notice the wooden beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! Remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter in your brother’s eye." Luke 6:36-37, 41-42

Those who have had a wooden beam removed from their own eye speak as if they know it. They act as if they know it, for they are grateful for the great gift of sight, knowing still that they see imperfectly, and greatly compassionate to anyone who suffers from the loss they themselves have suffered. They would never think it okay to just leave the wood in there.

The hypocrites you are referring to are the ones who commit grave sin, publicly endorse it and say they are not sinning, right? I see no reason to not instruct the ignorant, or stop admonishimg sinners because one is a sinner themselves. This is the cross of our age. That is false tolerance in the name of not “judging”. This false compassion is everywhere today. We can see the fruits of such twisted reasoning. The great acceptence of sin today is very much related to this common misunderstanding of our obligation to Christ and our fellow man.

 

[4_marks]

fix:

Christ ate with sinners and called themn to conversion. He did not eat with them to sip cocktails and engage to polite chatter.

He also stood firmly against discrimination and condemns those who discriminate against others because of who they are. When one refuses to attend a party thrown by a homosexual man because he is a homosexual man, one is discriminating and is practicing bigotry…pure and simple.