Opinions needed

[felra]

4 marks:

And here’s a great ministerial apostolate to Catholic gays and lesbians:

stbernadette.org/frparish.htm

Below is the introductory paragraph to your “great ministerial …” above cited web page that affirms and confirms those living in an overtly sinful lifestyle:

Below is a partial list of known “gay friendly” Catholic parishes and faith communities. The parishes are known as welcoming to membership and participation by lesbian and gay Catholics because of pastoral outreach or simply because the staff and parishioners are open and welcoming.

…and here is the Mission Statement for their “Gay and Lesbian Ministry”:

Mission Statement

*“God …calls the church to minister to every man, woman and child with the pastoral solicitude of our compassionate Lord.” (Vatican CDF Letter, 1986) **As a parish committed to an attitude of welcome and firmly opposed to discrimination in all its forms, we declare our support for gay and lesbian Catholics, their families and friends. We welcome sexual minorities, their families and friends into our community. We wish to ease the pain of alienation and rejection and to promote reconciliation between church and gay and lesbian people. We intend to educate ourselves, the church community, to the existence of unexamined prejudice and to the consequences of injustice. We will work to end discrimination toward gay and lesbian people within and outside of the church community. *

This says it all, it also squarely locates you-4 marks-in your active agenda to promote the homosexual lifestyle. You should be ashamed of yourself parading about as an authentic Catholic. You are actively cooperating with Satan’s army that the Church is waging war against, so much as you promote the kingdom of darkness, the anti-gospel.

For those interested in actually ministering to those wanting to be free of this tragic and sinful lifestyle, here is a starting point web site: .

 

[fix]

4 marks:

Gays and Lesbians, and Iraqis and Protestants and Michael Moore and Voice Of The Faithful and Archbishop Flynn and Blue State people like me are all children of God, our brothers and our sisters.

All the baptized are children of God, but we all can reject Christ through mortal sin. Even Mother Teresa said each day she knew she had to make a conscious effort to say yes to Christ.

We need to share the truth. Glossing over mortal sin and being happy, clappy people is no virtue.

 

[fix]

This says it all, it also squarely locates you-4 marks-in your active agenda to promote the homosexual lifestyle. You should be ashamed of yourself parading about as an authentic Catholic. You are actively cooperating with Satan’s army that the Church is waging war against, so much as you promote the kingdom of darkness, the anti-gospel.

Yep, that is correct.

 

[felra]

4 marks:

I take it that you believe that because they are gay they cannot possibly have a saving relationship with Jesus. I used to believe that because Catholics prayed to Mary and the Saints and worshipped a wafer and some wine that they could not possibly be saved either.

When your time comes, may Saints Matthew Shepard, Harvey Milk, and Father John Geoghan accompany Saint Peter to greet you at the pearly gates.

I will let the scriptures answer to you on this post:

Matthew**
Chapter 18**

6

"Whoever causes one of these little ones 5 who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

7

6 Woe to the world because of things that cause sin! Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come!

Matthew**
Chapter 7**

15

9 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.

16

By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

17

Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.

18

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.

19

Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

20

So by their fruits you will know them.

21

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, 10 but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

22

Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’

23

Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. 11 Depart from me, you evildoers.’

 

[fix]

felra:

I will let the scriptures answer to you on this post:

Matthew**
Chapter 18**

6

"Whoever causes one of these little ones 5 who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

7

6 Woe to the world because of things that cause sin! Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come!

Matthew**
Chapter 7**

15

9 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.

16

By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

17

Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.

18

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.

19

Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

20

So by their fruits you will know them.

21

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, 10 but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

22

Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’

23

Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. 11 Depart from me, you evildoers.’

Oou, you are so mean spirited. Can’t you see those nasty parts of the bible need to be downplayed?

 

[StJeanneDArc]

4 marks:

Discrimination against other human beings for reasons of race, creed, color, gender, religious or political persuasion, intellect, economic level, and/or sexual orientation is ALWAYS wrong! As for public scandal, it is more scandalous to discriminate against others by refusing to attend because the man throwing the party happens to be gay and is living the gay lifestyle.

My wife and I attended my brother’s wedding to his partner. We consider his partner our brother-in-law and a member of our family. He was deeply hurt when one of my brother’s, a Jehovah’s Witness Elder and his family, refused to attend. As a result, their relationship as siblings will never be the same. For what? To prove a point that one is dedicated above all things to keeping what one believes are God’s laws and decrees? That’s exactly what the Pharisees were about. Jesus called them
“whitewashed tombs filled with the bones of the dead.” He also called them hypocrites.

Ah. This explains a lot about your vehement support of homosexual behavior.

I will pray for you and your brother and his sex partner. You see, your bother is not married, as he can only be married to a woman. Their presenting themselves as a married couple is a lie, and your support of that lie is wrong as well.

That’s what the original question boils down to: does attending this party hosted by a homosexual “couple” support the lie underlying their relationship? Whether or not to attend the party is a prudential judgment, that this “couple”'s lifestyle is sinful is the TRUTH.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

jzepi:

I agree we must be merciful. I think we disagree on how to be merciful.

Actually, I don’t think we do. Jesus didn’t say, “When you get the beam out of your own eye, you’ll quit worrying about mere slivers.” The idea isn’t to leave the wood in there. The idea is to keep our own need for mercy–our deep overall neediness, for that matter–first in mind when we take on the spiritual state of anyone else.

If your host is bluntly going to take your presence as an endorsement, you have to gently disabuse them of that notion or stay home. “I’m not going because I agree with your choices. I don’t. In fact, since you brought it up, I think they’re spiritually and eternally ruinous, and I’d be lying to tell you otherwise. I’m going because I don’t want to let even that get between us. You know what I have to say to you about homosexuality, but that isn’t all that we have between us. I’m not your spiritual director, so if you can tolerate our disagreement for one night, then I’m willing to do it, too.”

It is reasonable to refrain from going because you’re afraid of falling into sin. “I’d love to go, but your implied homosexual activity is a problem for me. If I could handle that in a more loving way… but I’m not there yet. I can’t see how to go and not either agree with your choice or ruin your party. So I’m sorry, but I’m going to stay home this time. I hope you’ll understand.”

In other words, this isn’t a simple call. As one poster said, we’re not God. Maybe my take on this is too permissive, I don’t know. We have to work with the amount of eyesight we have.

 

[jzepi]

Island Oak:

VERY nicely, humbly put jzepi! How far we’ve come since you were pointing out to me the roadmap to hell earlier in the post. Perhaps there is some common ground to be found among the wide range of approaches held by faithful Catholics after all. Peace & joy of Christmas to you!

I actually was kidding about your eternal destination (I did put a big grin there) but I was also trying to provoke you which was dumb, and I apologize. I do think the more we study our faith and pray, our common ground will really expand. I look forward perhaps to future exchanges. Merry Holy Christmas to you!

 

[4_marks]

fix:

I can’t read souls, but I can read words and actions. If you think committing sodomy is not a great evil can lead to perdition, your are blind and have a conscience that is dulled to the truth.

Be sure to include among the list of “great evils that can lead to perdition” a lack of unreserved, unconditional love for all people.

 

[jzepi]

4 marks:

God creates a person

God creates person with the need for physical intimacy with others

Person is aware that they are homosexual

Person knows that they didn’t choose to be homosexual

God ordains laws forbidding person from engaging in physical intimacy outside of marriage

Person is frustrated and tormented. How could God be so sadistic?

Person rejects God and spends eternity separated from Him (in hell)

4 marks, I think the steps you listed out very well can play out as you say - we can be left with despair - if we do not have good information.

Specifically, your second point, our “need for physical intimacy” – many people misunderstand this to mean that we humans have a true need for sex. Sex is a strong drive and is part of us and our relationship to others, no doubt. But to believe that it is a true need that has to be indulged is not true. Misunderstanding this has led many people to make big big mistakes. The other option, chastity, is difficult at first but gets easier and more rewarding as we go, and results in greater faith and reliance on God through prayer. God does not reveal His will and then make it impossible to do it. There is a way. And we will find it if we look for it. But it involves turning away from desires we believe we want, in order to embrace the bigger reality: Jesus Christ, the lover of our souls.

 

[4_marks]

felra:

You should be ashamed of yourself parading about as an authentic Catholic. You are actively cooperating with Satan’s army that the Church is waging war against, so much as you promote the kingdom of darkness, the anti-gospel.

The Scribes and the Pharisees (religious leaders who clung to strict orthodoxy and tradition above all things) often attributed Jesus’ activity as cooperation with Satan, as blasphemy, and promoting falsehood)

To quote Pax Christi, a Catholic organization of empowered lay, religious and clergy who authentically strive for peace and justice and actively promote the same vision as I:

“We Christians are called to continual conversion and the institutional church herself is in constant need of reform. We will try to ensure that respect is maintained when controversies arise, which stem from our different perspectives and from the rich variety of spiritual gifts. As a faith based movement in an increasingly secularized world, we face the challenge of being open to the needs of all and of bringing them the hope that comes from a Saviour who was crucified and is risen. We will endeavour to reflect Christ’s love and acceptance of everyone, especially those who for personal, ethnic, sexual, cultural or economic reasons, are often marginalized. This may not make us popular nor numerous, but it is often through the witness of small groups and minorities that change is facilitated.”

 

[4_marks]

StJeanneDArc:

Ah. This explains a lot about your vehement support of homosexual behavior.

I will pray for you and your brother and his sex partner. You see, your bother is not married, as he can only be married to a woman. Their presenting themselves as a married couple is a lie, and your support of that lie is wrong as well.

That’s what the original question boils down to: does attending this party hosted by a homosexual “couple” support the lie underlying their relationship? Whether or not to attend the party is a prudential judgment, that this “couple”'s lifestyle is sinful is the TRUTH.

My brother is not sacramentally married, nor can he ever be. My brother is married according to civil law. I don’t go around to my divorced and re-married Catholic friends who have not received an annullment and say they are not married. They are not married sacramentally, but they are married by civil law.

I do not promote the notion that homosexuals should be afforded the “right” to be married sacramentally to one another. I do believe that homosexuals should be allowed to marry in the civil sense.

I believe that the Catholic Church spends too much of its time and energy upon sex and sexual matters. Jesus, as portrayed in the scriptures, does not seem to make sexual ethics his primary objective.

 

[4_marks]

4 marks, I think the steps you listed out very well can play out as you say - we can be left with despair - if we do not have good information.

Specifically, your second point, our “need for physical intimacy” – many people misunderstand this to mean that we humans have a true need for sex. Sex is a strong drive and is part of us and our relationship to others, no doubt. But to believe that it is a true need that has to be indulged is not true. Misunderstanding this has led many people to make big big mistakes. The other option, chastity, is difficult at first but gets easier and more rewarding as we go, and results in greater faith and reliance on God through prayer. God does not reveal His will and then make it impossible to do it. There is a way. And we will find it if we look for it. But it involves turning away from desires we believe we want, in order to embrace the bigger reality: Jesus Christ, the lover of our souls.

Personally, I agree with this. If I were a homosexual like my brother, I would commit myself to a life of celibacy for the sake of the Kingdom of God. However, I am not my brother who is not yet at a place where he can receive the beautiful message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (partly due to the militant reaction of disgust, shame and hate hurled toward him by practicing Christians). He is where he is, and I will meet him and accept him where he is. Jesus met Mary Magdalen where she was. He did not condemn her. He told her to go forth and avoid this sin, and in doing so, He put the responsibility to respond to the invitation on her. Touched by His sincere and unconditional love and His great love, she did.

My brother has only heard messages of condemnation from Christians. My wife and I have reached out to him and to my brother-in-law, his partner, in love and in friendship. The invitation has been extended, and will continue to be extended to them. It is their choice to respond.

 

[fix]

4 marks:

Be sure to include among the list of “great evils that can lead to perdition” a lack of unreserved, unconditional love for all people.

Authentic love is not encouraging others to skip and dance down the road to hell.

 

[fix]

4 marks:

The Scribes and the Pharisees (religious leaders who clung to strict orthodoxy and tradition above all things) often attributed Jesus’ activity as cooperation with Satan, as blasphemy, and promoting falsehood)

To quote Pax Christi, a Catholic organization of empowered lay, religious and clergy who authentically strive for peace and justice and actively promote the same vision as I:

“We Christians are called to continual conversion and the institutional church herself is in constant need of reform. We will try to ensure that respect is maintained when controversies arise, which stem from our different perspectives and from the rich variety of spiritual gifts. As a faith based movement in an increasingly secularized world, we face the challenge of being open to the needs of all and of bringing them the hope that comes from a Saviour who was crucified and is risen. We will endeavour to reflect Christ’s love and acceptance of everyone, especially those who for personal, ethnic, sexual, cultural or economic reasons, are often marginalized. This may not make us popular nor numerous, but it is often through the witness of small groups and minorities that change is facilitated.”

We all know what Pax Christi’s agenda is. No one has asserted we should “marginalize” any so called group. What some are saying is that too often the heterodox left overlook grave sin in an attempt to reconcile the teaching of the Church with error. They can’t be reconciled.

Modern Scribes and Pharisees are groups that promote error under the guise of Christian “justice and peace”. They claim to be following Christ, tell others they are unChristian and then go about marginalizing the moral law. In short, they are hypocrites who tell others they are not being Christ like becuase they do not embrace error as truth. I get it.

 

[felra]

4 marks:

Be sure to include among the list of “great evils that can lead to perdition” a lack of unreserved, unconditional love for all people.

Your constant theme of over emphasis on “unconditional” love in your posts this thread does not portray a balanced presentation of the Gospel (I will spare you the Kumbaya chorus). I suggest that you reread the the four Gospels to elucidate and consider acceptance of the dual capacity of God’s love and mercy **and **coexistent demand of truth and justice. This is the full Gospel “unconditional” (love the sinner, hate the sin) love that Christ calls us to emulate as His faithful/true disciples.

To deliver the fullness of the Gospel to others through our deeds and words requires much more courage and putting our personal preference and comfort zones aside. God be with you and let the light of His truth shine on your mind–my prayer for you.

 

[4_marks]

felra:

Your constant theme of over emphasis on “unconditional” love in your posts this thread does not portray a balanced presentation of the Gospel (I will spare you the Kumbaya chorus).

To deliver the fullness of the Gospel to others through our deeds and words requires much more courage and putting our personal preference and comfort zones aside. God be with you and let the light of His truth shine on your mind–my prayer for you.

Greetings of the Season to you and to yours.

This is a good story and is true, please read it all the way through until the end! (After the story, there are some very interesting facts!):
I am a mother of three (ages 14, 12, 3) and have recently completed my college degree.
The last class I had to take was! Sociology.
The teacher was absolutely inspiring with the qualities that I wish every human being had been graced with.
Her last project of the term was called “Smile.”
The class was asked to go out and smile at three people and document their reactions.
I am a very friendly person and always smile at everyone and say hello anyway, so, I thought this would be a piece of cake, literally.
Soon after we were assigned the project, my husband, youngest son, and I went out to McDonald’s one crisp March morning.
It was just our way of sharing special playtime with our son.
We were standing in line, waiting to be served, when all of a sudden everyone around us began to back away, and then even my husband did.
I did not move an inch… an overwhelming feeling of panic welled up inside of me as I turned to see why they had moved.
As I turned around I smelled a horrible “dirty body” smell, and there standing behind me were two poor homeless men.
As I looked down at the short gentleman, close to me, he was “smiling”.
His beautiful sky blue eyes were full of God’s Light as he searched for acceptance.

He said, “Good day” as he counted the few coins he had been clutching.
The second man fumbled with his hands as he stood behind his friend. I realized the second man was mentally challenged and the blue-eyed gentleman was his salvation.
I held my tears as I stood there with them.
The young lady at the counter asked him what they wanted.
He said, “Coffee is all Miss” because that was all they could afford. (If they wanted to sit in the restaurant and warm up, they had to buy something. He just wanted to be warm).
Then I really felt it - the compulsion was so great I almost reached out and embraced the little man with the blue eyes.
That is when I noticed all eyes in the restaurant were set on me, judging my every action.
I smiled and asked the young lady behind the counter to give me two more breakfast meals on a separate tray.
I then walked around the corner to the table that the men had chosen as a resting spot. I put the tray on the table and laid my hand on the blue-eyed gentleman’s cold hand.
He looked up at me, with tears in his eyes, and said, “Thank you.”
I leaned over, began to pat his hand and said, “I did not do this for you. God is here working through me to give you hope.”
I started to cry as I walked away to join my husband and son. When I sat down my husband smiled at me and said, “That is why God gave you to me, Honey, to give me hope.”
We held hands for a moment and at that time, we knew that only because of the Grace that we had been given were we able to give.

We are not church goers, but we are believers.
That day showed me the pure Light of God’s sweet love. I returned to college, on the last evening of class, with this story in hand.
I turned in “my project” and the instructor read it.
Then she looked up at me and said, “Can I share this?”
I slowly nodded as she got the attention of the class.
She began to read and that is when I knew that we as human beings and being part of God share this need to heal people and to be healed.
In my own way I had touched the people at McDonald’s, my husband, son, instructor, and every soul that shared the classroom on the last night I spent as a college student.
I graduated with one of the biggest lessons I would ever learn: UNCONDITIONAL ACCEPTANCE !.
Much love and compassion is sent to each and every person who may read this and learn how to LOVE PEOPLE AND USE THINGS - NOT LOVE THINGS AND USE PEOPLE.
If you think this story has touched you in any way, please send this to everyone you know.
There is an Angel sent to watch over you.
In order for her to work, you must pass this on to the people you want watched over.
An Angel wrote:
Many people will walk in and out of your life, but only true friends will leave footprints in your heart.
To handle yourself, use your head.

To handle others, use your heart.
God Gives every bird it’s food, but He does not throw it into its nest.

 

[4_marks]

felra:

Your constant theme of over emphasis on “unconditional” love in your posts this thread does not portray a balanced presentation of the Gospel (I will spare you the Kumbaya chorus). I suggest that you reread the the four Gospels to elucidate and consider acceptance of the dual capacity of God’s love and mercy **and **coexistent demand of truth and justice. This is the full Gospel “unconditional” (love the sinner, hate the sin) love that Christ calls us to emulate as His faithful/true disciples.

To deliver the fullness of the Gospel to others through our deeds and words requires much more courage and putting our personal preference and comfort zones aside. God be with you and let the light of His truth shine on your mind–my prayer for you.

Take heed of the wisdom of God’s Spirit expressed in Father’s homily:

"As Catholics, our hope for justice and peace is real in time and place. It is social and political. It has to be. It has to do with human beings. Our faith is expressed in social practice. The struggle for justice here and now is the struggle for the kingdom of God.

Alleviating war, poverty, intolerance and oppression may not bring heaven to earth but it is certainly a goal for all who call themselves Catholic Christians.

Following Christ’s example, Paul insisted we should please our neighbor for the good, and for building up the community.
Building up the community means that those who live on this earth work diligently at solving the problems of living together.
Acknowledging our great differences Paul’s rationale is that since God’s mercy is extended to all, so must be our caring and compassion.

We must accept others unilaterally, no matter who they are or what they do.This includes those who live a homosexual lifestyle. The basis of our acceptance and love for all is that Christ welcomed and saved all for the glory of God. Christ accepts people not based on their accomplishments or even because of their repentance but simply for God’s glory.

This poses a great challenge for contemporary Christians, especially the religious right, whether they be fellow Catholics or our separated sisters and brothers, the Protestants. It is the
tendency of the religious right to stipulate who shall be accepted depending on their beliefs, actions, decisions of conscience or conformity to the norm.

One can only wonder how such exclusionary tactics glorify God.

Jesus not only welcomed sinners and the lost but sought them out. He fed them and ate with them. This has set our example.
Can we who claim to be his eyes, his ears, his hands, his heart and his mind for the world do otherwise? What Paul is saying in this text from Romans is that the vision of Isaiah regarding the peace of the kingdom has begun to be realized in Jesus and it must continue to be realized through us.

These words remind us that no one, no area, no people is excluded from God’s mercy.

Our challenge this Advent is to put ourselves in touch with God’s universal, inclusive and loving purposes.
Accepting all people and working for justice, we can create a world where the wolf can be the guest of the lamb."

 

[felra]

4 marks:

Take heed of the wisdom of God’s Spirit expressed in Father’s homily*abbrev)…*“As Catholics, our hope for justice and peace is real in time and place. It is social and political… Alleviating war, poverty, intolerance and oppression may not bring heaven to earth…
We must accept others unilaterally, no matter who they are or what they do.This includes those who live a homosexual lifestyle… Christ welcomed and saved all for the glory of God…What Paul is saying in this text from Romans is that the vision of Isaiah regarding the peace of the kingdom has begun to be realized in Jesus and it must continue to be realized through us…Accepting all people and working for justice, we can create a world where the wolf can be the guest of the lamb.”

This is a false Gospel that you try to spread. A gospel of social and political justice as its goal; a humanistic vision of the kingdom…all earth’s inhabitants into one all encompassing, worldwide community of people aglow in God’s love and mercy, living in peace and harmony. A nice ideal, but not the Kingdom reality that Jesus or Paul or Isaiah preached: Luke 12…49 **"I have come to set the earth on fire, and how I wish it were already blazing! **51 Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division.

…regarding the inclusiveness that you so adamantly preach,Matthew 7…13**"Enter through the narrow gate**; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. 14 How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.

The peaceable kingdom that you cite in Isaiah 11:6-10, was preceded by God’s justice and judgment (again, the full story please), which decreed destruction of the evildoers/disobedient, resulting in only a remnant left to enjoy God’s peace and love, Isaiah 10…21A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God. 22 For though your people, O Israel, were like the sand of the sea**, Only a remnant of them will return; their destruction is decreed as overwhelming justice demands**.

St.Paul did indeed exhort the believers that they need to be toother’s Christ in the world in order to spread the Gospel, but the whole purpose is that other might be saved, at least “to save at least some”, see below, 1 Corinthians 9…19 7 Although I am free in regard to all, I have made myself a slave to all so as to win over as many as possible. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win over the weak**. I have become all things to all, to save at least some**. 23 All this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I too may have a share in it.

In contradistiction to your above contention, the goal of every believer in this world is make the Kingdom a present reality. The use of the word “kingdom” is very often stated in present tense, not just a future reality, Mark 1…14 After John had been arrested, Jesus came to Galilee proclaiming the gospel of God: 15 "This is the time of fulfillment. The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

 

[4_marks]

You are right. The Kingdom is now. The here and now are all we have to work with. We don’t have the past and we have not realized the future. The prophet Isaiah (and whomever Second Isaiah was) is dead. Jesus of Nazareth is dead. Paul of Tarsus is dead. They are no longer here. The Church that has been established is still here and now. You and I are still here and now. We must make it happen. We must usher in the Kingdom on “earth as it is in heaven.” How? By becoming active agents for political, economic, social, and liturgical/ecclesiological change. In Jesus name. Amen!